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Tibalt posted:Never say a number. JFC. This is sensible, but I'm curious about something. To get my current job, I dealt with a 3rd party recruiter. Most of the recruiters I dealt with suck, but this guy was sharp. For him, he said he wanted a number so we knew we weren't miles apart and he could negotiate adequately on my (and his own, obv) behalf. He didn't insist on knowing what I made currently, just what I would probably accept. I knew enough to give him something high and we actually got it, so in this case I have no regrets. I think this was after an in-person interviewing and knowing I did pretty well in it. Is this an exception to 'never say a number' or should I have resisted harder? Do you still make them come in with a number? On rental chat, how are you guys determining the rental prices in your area? The prices listed on my building have not gone down. Also, I remember hearing about something; you can sometimes extend your lease for a longer period as a way to try and leverage getting a lower rent. So, like, instead one year at X, it's two years at X less some amount. It's basically 'locking in' the new rent for a longer period, saving money over time and avoiding future increases. Is that something that actually happens, or is that just some boomer poo poo that doesn't exist anymore? If it matters, I live in MA and rent from a small-ish corporation (maybe 100-150 units total?).
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Sep 20, 2020 17:42
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:If you want to say you're well compensated Maybe this is weird but personally, but I don't care to say I am well compensated (except to check my privilege and know that I am fortunate to be doing better than a lot of people). Dunno why. Maybe some puritanical money shame or something? I just can't imagine saying "I'm well compensated" in a sentence for whatever reason. I am going to try and keep this stuff in mind for the next negotiations, whenever they happen to be. I guess I'll just say, "Nope, make them tell you what they want to pay me and we'll see." If they don't want to bother, oh well.
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Sep 22, 2020 15:49
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Betazoid posted:Isn't one of the premises of this thread to know when you've won? Yeah, I'm the opposite. I will expend money to not have to go through the energy required to save it. After all, once your basic needs are met, it's there to make your life easier. I appreciate all the advice. It has not made me any less happy in the results of my decision, even if I played it wrong. Still, for important things like job negotiations, I'll try and break that path of least resistance habit.
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Sep 22, 2020 22:01
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This is something of a related topic: I read online that you should politely decline any requests for exit interviews, since it really only benefits the company and could backfire on your future references depending on what is said. What is the gooncensus on this?
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Dec 13, 2020 17:30
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evobatman posted:A 40 hour work week is considered a benefit? 
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Jan 19, 2021 10:48
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Parallelwoody posted:You don't mention you're going to leave until you've accepted an offer and are leaving. Just had this conversation with my boss. He's afraid of a brain drain because we probably aren't getting raises this year. I told him I was not considering leaving (the truth) but also he should not believe me because I likely wouldn't tell him if I was. That concerned him but he did say that if I decided it was time he would be willing to be a reference. That surprised me a little bit, but we have had a good working relationship thus far, so I don't think he is trying to beguile me here. Of the three tech jobs I've had, none ended up requiring references. One was out of college but gave me no one to use for the second, and the latest one never asked. Do references matter anymore, especially considering that a valuable one could potentially sabotage my current employment? I think the answer is "NO" but that seems odd. Does that mean everyone uses references from two jobs ago?
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Feb 4, 2021 23:20
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I know that no one gets meaningful raises anymore, that everyone just gets higher pay at the next job. I'm not prepared to leave this job just yet. However, based on a few statements from higher ups regarding pay-raises (when asked about the lack of them since the pandemic), I have been thinking I may be in a position to be successful in getting one if I somehow take the initiative. Of course, I am both an idiot and a coward, so I'm taking these thoughts here. Is there any advice for this sort of situation? Is it impossible because I have no strong alternative (not actually wanting to leave)? Or is getting raises just grandpa baloney and I need to shed my corporate programming?
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Jul 29, 2021 23:32
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Hmm, okay, so go in with numbers, that's good. Any thoughts on how I say it, like, "I want a raise" or "I need a raise" or "I deserve a raise"? Or do I dress it up with lots of flummery and say "I haven't had a COLA in X time and it's important that my salary to remain competitive, etc etc." Also, any thoughts on how to potentially undermine my working relationship with my boss in this process? I'm of the opinion that every employee's job (outside of looking out for their own well-being) is to make their boss' job easier, but this is one way in which I will be making it harder. We have a darn good relationship right now, which is a part of why I don't want to leave. And does this still stand under the "never say a number" trope? Don't say I want X, just let them offer what they offer and then decide if I want to counteroffer?
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Jul 30, 2021 13:19
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Thanks for all the advice. I come here to get reality checks, since I am not well versed in all this crap. Maybe I could have learned this in high school instead of about the revolutionary war for the umpteenth time, huh? At least now I'm armed with way more information, and just have to decide if it's right choice to try. Final question (for now, at least): How do you determine your worth? Just google the position name and experience level? That is what I was doing, but I don't know if there's something better.
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Jul 30, 2021 19:29
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Rails SDMM posted:C++, moving from the games industry into high frequency trading. Ha that fukkin rules
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Aug 27, 2021 20:26
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:there's plenty of ways you can benchmark FAANG pay, you should do that, find a number, add some money to it, and throw that back So, in what way is this not in violation of "never say a number jfc"? I mean that question in all sincerity. Negotiation is not something I remotely understand but I am trying to get better at for my next job search.
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Sep 3, 2021 15:46
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Wibla posted:I booked a "followup meeting" with my manager today, for Monday at noon, with no agenda. Why have a face to face meeting? Is it just to make them squirm? Or is it a business courtesy thing? Last two times I've left jobs, I've just done it with an email to my boss and maybe their boss as well. Something like, "To whom it may concern, please consider this my two weeks notice. The last day I will be available to work for Chocolate Teapot Inc is xx/yy/zzzz. As a matter of personal policy, I will decline to conduct any exit interviews."
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Sep 24, 2021 21:39
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I'm a bit late for the Exit Interview Chat that I accidentally started, but I guess I'll say my very simple take on it, based on what I've read. The key thing to remember is that exit interviews are for the company, not you. You cannot improve anything for yourself in one. All you can do is something potentially negative like burning a bridge. Also, even if you have good intentions to make things better for those who remain, the odds of that are very small. In fact, your departure itself has a greater chance of making a difference if it adequately spooks management into trying to retain talent. Just politely decline.
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Sep 27, 2021 23:06
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Wibla posted:Our HR manager came by today to ask me about leaving etc. He didn't seem too happy about my answers, but gently caress him 
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Sep 28, 2021 20:37
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Hadlock posted:I wouldn't move for less than 20% more than your current salary Lockback posted:Hadlock's advice is good. I'd also note: Follow up to these two things, as I find myself in a similar boat: Is it fine to talk about needing a raise but state that I am willing to wait until raise time, or is that the same as nothing and you'll be forgotten? Do I start with a number, or do I say "Need raise" and then wait for later to say a number? Do I have to be available to answer questions? I have time off coming up soon and was thinking of putting it out there before I run to avoid the immediate friction of the act because I am a massive loving coward. Even if my boss can't grant the raise himself, I still go to him, right? If and when sending out a number, do I still aim high or does the fact that they know what I make make that less advantageous and I need to just determine my market? I certainly am not going to threaten to leave, but do I reiterate that I want to stay or does that weaken my position? Basically help me money please my family is dying.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:25
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Hadlock posted:Do you want a raise, or do you need a one time cash infusion? You could ask for a merit bonus to cover a hospital bill. I've seen cash rich startups grant 10% of someone's annual salary up front, on top of starting bonus to cover certain life events etc Sorry the family dying was just a joke alluding to the dril tweet. I just want a raise so I can loving retire some day, and Covid has stolen a few opportunities for that. Otherwise, I guess I'll try to figure out how to ask soon, hopefully next week.
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Oct 9, 2021 00:12
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Thank you for the tips. I don't want to leave because I like where I work, the work I do and the team I am with. It's the first time I've had that in my entire working life and I don't know if I will ever get it again. Also, I am still learning and growing in this position which I was not in my previous job and want to make the most of that opportunity. Still, I know I have to be the one watching out for my bottom line, since no one else will. I will reconsider leaving if I have to, but I'd rather just get paid more here. Based on my research, I should be getting like 18-20% more than I do currently based on where I live. (Note: I probably started beneath my value despite being perfectly satisfied with that value at the time because I said a number, never say a number people). That's a big amount, which is why I've been hesitant to broach the subject. Lockback posted:Don't do this around raise time. If that's coming up soon, congrats you missed it. How soon is soon? Nothing concrete has been put down yet but they are talking in the early in the new year, so that's 3-5, maybe even 6 months away. That'd be in the timeframe you quote, so that makes me feel like now is the time.
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Oct 9, 2021 12:06
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Can someone explain what is meant by 5/5, 6/6 in terms of a 401k? I understand 401k plans broadly, but I haven't seen it written out like that before and google isn't helping, probably because of the symbol. Also, how do you describe a partial match in that way, such as 50-cents on the dollar, up to 6%, which is apparently the most common according to Investopedia.
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Nov 10, 2021 16:26
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Boot and Rally posted:I can't help but think that "respectfully" is not a good sign. I'm not broken up about it, but it is odd. Certainly not going to list a number now. Keep in mind they have not discussed benefits at all. HR people are sometimes just jackwagons. Last time I changed jobs, this frigging lady I was never going to personally interact with after that moment absolutely insisted that I start the first possible Wednesday instead of the following Monday. Still have not idea why it mattered so much to her; it wasn't a different month or anything.
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Dec 9, 2021 21:34
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Quackles posted:My one-year jobiversary is coming up. Any advice on asking for a raise? I asked something similar here in response to some other goons asking as well. Our situations are a different but if you look at the responses to my post and to the ones I quote, etc for some thoughts the thread gave before. I can't speak for results: I talked about it and I have made my request but it won't be fielded until Jan in the normal structure. We'll see what I get if anything.
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Dec 13, 2021 10:32
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Eric the Mauve posted:Everything I'm hearing is that if you advertise a remote role you get 200 applicants, if you advertise the exact same role but requiring rear end in seat you get crickets. Every time I hear stories about this, I just think "Boy, this has proved that so much of office culture bullshit was a big loving lie, a huge make-work project for pointless middle managers". I wonder at what point historically we could have technologically achieved high levels of remote work, and where we would be if that had had greater adoption for years or even a decade now. If nothing else, productivity would have been higher. I too have no desire to ever work in an office again unless there is an especially compelling reason, like the work involves an irreplaceable physical aspect to the work itself.
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Jan 12, 2022 00:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Just the accessibility ramifications are staggering. gently caress I didn't even think about that. That just makes it 600 times more infuriating.
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Jan 12, 2022 00:40
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My work provided my laptop and offered to provide more stuff like chairs and monitors and docks, but I didn't want to have to bother sending anything else back when I leave, and I can just keep using my own poo poo for whatever the next job is.
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Jan 12, 2022 23:51
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bamhand posted:Have you already tried levels.fyi or would this job not fall under there? I had not heard of this site and it did not appear in my searches for finding job compensation. Thank you for sharing this. For anyone else looking to arm themselves with information, these were the sites I used. I don't know if they're good or not, and I don't know if they can possibly keep up with how crazy the market is right now, but I figure multiple sources can always be helpful. If anyone else knows any others, please share. https://www.onetonline.org/ https://www.indeed.com/career/salaries https://www.salary.com/ This one only works for those in the Boston metro, obviously: https://www.builtinboston.com/salaries/ I tried to use Glassdoor but it wanted me to sign in. gently caress that. And of course, the most important link: this negotiation thread.
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Jan 20, 2022 22:10
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I finally got a response for my request for as raise that I brought up in October. I knew it was going to take until the new year, but it's not going into effect until March, so let's call it 5 months of waiting. It's 10%, instead of the 20% I needed to stay at market in October, and honestly that gap is now closer to 25% now. Also, that 10% is basically the COLA from when I started in 2019 at a total of 8.8. If I had left in November and gotten my 20% (which I think was at least plausible considering the market), then in 5 months I would have already made up a big chunk of this raise. I mean, it's clear I have to leave now. I guess I should have left early last year when we found out we weren't getting raises again, but I tried to be understanding about Covid and I like the work and the team I work with. This is not me making an excuse. I woke up this morning knowing I hosed up bad, but this also isn't about or being 'woe is me'. I'm posting this to act as an object lesson: it's all good if everyone's posting when they're killing it and celebrating, but sometimes we need to be reminded of when we fail. I put comfort ahead of prosperity out of cowardice. I didn't put myself first, and that has cost me a reasonable of money over time, and not just at this job. Don't be like me. Here's the follow up question: In the past, my boss has told me that if I was going to look for another job, he would be willing to provide a reference. While I believe he is telling me the truth, that seems like a huge risk to take. My instinct is to simply let him know via my two weeks notice and not a moment before. Does anyone disagree?
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Jan 28, 2022 09:18
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:holy gently caress in re 60k moving costs are you relocating from like Moscow to San Francisco or something He's relocating to the Home of the Mole Men.
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Feb 4, 2022 20:56
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So when we say "Have the paperwork" and such, can someone who knows explain or link to some resource that goes into what is meant by that particularly? I mean, I know that an offer of employment has the new hire and a designee of the company sign it, but I don't know the process much beyond that, even though I've been hired a few times, since it's always a blur.
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Feb 6, 2022 10:48
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I had an interesting interaction with a recruiter this week. He asked for a range, I told him basically "I heard you're not supposed to say a number" and he said, "Fair enough. If I had an offer of $X or $Y, should I send those to you?" The numbers were ones I could see myself accepting so I didn't really know how to respond. After a few seconds, I said something like "I guess just send them regardless of the number. I can't guarantee that I'll accept, since that would be akin to saying a number." We moved on after that. Not sure if that was the right response, but he did send me on to the next interview so he didn't ghost me for it.
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Feb 9, 2022 22:49
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Lockback posted:You do know "Don't say a number" doesn't mean "Don't ever talk numbers" right? If a recruiter gives you a number (Congrats, they gave the first number!) you should probably tell them if those numbers are in the ballpark or not. Saying "Send me anything" basically told the recruiter you'd go lower since if those numbers were too low you would have said so. See, I was thinking that as it happened that it perhaps in this case it was fine to reference a number. Just a hint of number. A soupçon of number. As a treat. But then I thought "I'm a coward and a wretch who should not trust himself to understand if this number is actually adequate for my worth. Oh god, what would the thread think? Quick, evasive flim-flam!" I am not joking; I literally thought of this thread in that deer-in-the-headlights moment. I've been underpaid (but satisfied at time of hire) at the last two jobs and this is the best hiring market I am likely to experience in my entire life. Therefore, I am trying my level best to wring every loving cent out of this one. Unfortunately, I have essentially never done this before, having only discovered this thread after completing my last job search. Hopefully I can be the next success story.
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Feb 10, 2022 00:45
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This poo poo is too complicated. If only there was a better way...
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Feb 10, 2022 01:12
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I'm not at this point yet, but I want to ask early: Assume you dealt with a recruiter, they give you a salary range and you have not said a number like a good goon. How do you properly "anchor" against that range by responding with a higher number than you expect to get? Is it different than if you did not know the range? Do you ignore it and just say whatever? Does the breadth of the range matter? For instance, is it different if it's a 25% again (like $75 to $95) or say 33% again range (like $75 - $100) or so, does that make a difference?
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Feb 14, 2022 17:09
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Speaking of PTO, how does a job seeker value a place with so-called "unlimited PTO"?
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Feb 25, 2022 20:34
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Okay, so, goons seem to be saying my fears are correct, but how do I actually approach it? Just straight up numerically? Do I just assume it's zero? It's unlikely it's actually literally zero, but it sounds like there is no way to get a better number. If I currently make one crisp dollar bill every year and have 4 weeks vacation, that means I'm getting paid $1 / (52-4) or 2.08 cents weekly. Whereas if I get offered a job where I make an additional quarter each year but it's UPTO, do I just say $1.25 / 52 = 2.4 cents weekly, which would only be a 13.7% raise (2.4/2.11 = 1.137) compared even though on the surface it sounds like a 25% raise? Also, when and how do I ask about the the culture around the time off? In interviews? While negotiating?
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Feb 26, 2022 09:40
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It's weird, I talked to the manager and we talked about a focus on work life balance, and I believed him, but he also mentioned UPTO as a positive. Unfortunately, this came up during the interview in which I did not have the presence of mind to press harder for info, which is why I'm asking the thread. Hopefully it will be alright.
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Feb 27, 2022 00:26
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Okay, here it is thread: I've got a verbal offer. By raw salary, it would be an 18% raise, but is 30% if I include the annual bonus. Not sure if I should count the bonus, but it sounds like it won't change or disappear if it didn't go away during Covid. It's UPTO, so I'm just going to call that 2 weeks, which was allegedly what the previous PTO benefit was at the company before adoption of this policy. I have 4 weeks currently. So, if I take the salary divided by real weeks worked, the difference ends up being just about +25%, but 13% if I don't include that bonus. (assuming I did my math right) It's a a very big jump on paper, though it looks a little underwhelming. In fact, if we assume the PTO was zero, it'd be only a 9% boost, but that's a little extreme. I was good. I did not say a number. They don't know my BATNA. I didn't talk about how happy I was at my current job so they don't know that I might have been willing to pass. However, if I am being honest, I don't think there is any universe in which I don't eventually accept this job, whether I negotiated or not. Looking for work loving sucks and the 401k match at this new place is very nice which is important to me. (so add like 2% to the above numbers, I guess) I don't know if I'd find better outside of, like, FAANG or something. I'm not worried about them pulling the offer if I negotiate. So, how the hell do I negotiate from here? What percentage boost do I ask for? What do I aim for? How do I 'anchor' this without violating any social norms? Do I just ask for +10%, hope for +5% and call it a day? I believe the pay to be competitive, but I could be wrong. I don't want to get too complicated. Do I say, "With the unlimited PTO, we all sort of understand that will probably mean less than my current level of PTO, so to make this more competitive, I feel I'm going to need $X" or "I have to evaluate this position without the bonus because it technically could not be there, unlike salary, so for that reason, I'm thinking I'll need $X". Or do I not say poo poo and just go, "I talked with whomstever and we would be more comfortable accepting if it was $X" I'm dealing through an outside recruiter (but with a quite strong relationship to the company) if it matters.
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Mar 2, 2022 00:03
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I shot back with +27% and the recruiter told me that was completely out of range and that I was at the top of my range for the position. He sent me a bunch of stuff about the benefits etc. Do I go down the list and explain why certain benefits actually don't matter? For instance, say that "I don't include the bonus because that is a paycut I could take any any point down the road with no warning" or "I am losing a significant amount of time off which needs to be compensated" or "I don't want tuition reimbursement, I want loving money". Again, this is an external recruiter with a strong connection to the company, so I'm inclined to be more verbose and honest to coax him into being on my side, but everyone in the thread is telling me to shut the gently caress up. Also, the fact that he had this prepared made me wonder if this is part of the game.
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Mar 2, 2022 14:45
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Thanks to everyone for the responses. Even if I don't specifically reply or mention you by name, I am reading all of this and trying to consider it, despite my incredible cowardice.Eric the Mauve posted:Sorry dude but your instincts are dead wrong. Any and all attempts to explain or justify why you're asking for what you're asking for weaken your position. Yeah, I'm starting to realize that, which is why I'm asking the thread for what to say, like I'm Christian and the thread is Cyrano. In this metaphor, Roxanne is "being able to retire someday". I do want the job but not super badly; a good team, good tech stack, unlikely to face certain industrial headwinds, a pay increase. Mostly, I just want the job search to be over. It has sucked having so much time soaked up by these interviews, applications, conversations and poo poo while still working full time. But I also want to do right by my future self. That's why I'm hesitant to just send up freedom rockets. RE culture: This is the first indication of any bad culture outside of the unlimited PTO, which I've made peace with. Everything else, they said everything right and allayed my apprehensions. The VP said that UPTO is kinda bullshit, which was very candid. jemand posted:Is your current place miserable in day to day as well as underpaid? Because jumping into less PTO, unknown job culture, for less than a compelling pay jump may not be what you want. Especially since you probably plan to stay a bit before moving again? No, I could stay at my current job forever, but I also can't retire on a 401k full of satisfaction and teamwork and I understand that I have to move to get paid. At this point, my admittedly very wrong instincts are telling me to say "If they aren't interested in negotiating, then the answer is unfortunately no." Which is kinda similar to what Mr Griffey Jr is saying. I don't know how to say that while keeping the door open while not looking like I'm keeping the door open.
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Mar 2, 2022 15:28
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jemand posted:Checked a few of your recent posts to remind myself of you're journey so far-- in January you were saying you needed a plus 25 to get back to market and keep up with inflation. Also, that the last two jobs you have been underpaid. This one looks like they are penny pinching and you'd make that three in a row. I didn't quote this part of the post in my last response, but this bit has helped make the decision easier. Thank you. Remember, children, always overshare online! That way strangers can use your own words against you. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:just say "I really like the team and the work and would really like to [DO WHAT YOU DO, IN SUMMARY, VALUE ADD] to help [COMPANY ACHIEVE WHATEVER THE gently caress], but the offer you have made does not meet my needs. If circumstances change and you are willing to meet my needs [OF X], I would be delighted to join. If not, I wish you luck filling the position."
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Mar 2, 2022 16:36
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The recruiter is now complaining that I'm asking way too much and wasted everyone's time. Is it possible he doesn't understand negotiation? Or is this a ploy to get me to accept less?
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Mar 2, 2022 16:45
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Corla Plankun posted:Is this a third party recruiter or one that works for the company you're trying to get hired at? If it is a third party you should've cut them out of communications weeks ago, and if it is an internal recruiter you should Oh well. This is probably the first time in my entire life I've (effectively) turned down an offer of employment. Doesn't feel good right now, but I am still getting like 7 LinkedIn messages a day, mostly poo poo.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:06
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