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Firstly, thank you thread. You have been an absolutely invaluable resource. I have followed this thread, and the previous thread, quite diligently for a while. However, I have mostly concentrated on the posts for how to negotiate external offers. I'm hoping for some advice on an internal offer coming my way. Quick background: I've had some external offers but haven't found the right position to leave my current job. I was approached by another department within IT recently for a fairly related position that is very exciting for me in terms of learning new skills, long term career growth, etc. I had an interview and was told at the end that an offer is coming (thanks, interviewing thread!  ). The director at my current position knows I interviewed and probably expects the offer as she has already asked if I would stay for a title change and raise. I responded that I would be open to staying but would need to see the specifics of their counter offer to make a decision.I enjoy my current position but am ready to move on - in other words, unless it's an amazing counter offer, I plan to take the new position. I don't expect the counter offer to be that amazing anyways, but would like to leverage it, if possible. Is there a certain etiquette or process for negotiating an internal offer by leveraging a counter offer from your current position? When I receive the initial offer, should I take that back to my current director and let them know, wait for a counter offer, and then take the counter offer to negotiate the initial offer? As one more relevant note: the new position had an external candidate that accepted an offer, started orientation, and then accepted a counter offer from their current position. So, my company might be sensitive to the power of a counter offer. Thanks in advance! Fireside Nut fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 10:08
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Mr. President, Capitulator, thank you very much for the helpful advice. I envisioned single round of back-and-forth so it's great to hear that sentiment echoed in your responses. I managed to leave the interview knowing an offer is coming, but did not set any goals/expectations for salary -- so hopefully this will be helpful. I plan to take the offer back to my current director when it arrives. Since I said I was open to hearing a counter-offer and potentially staying (not really going to stay either way) I'm planning on phrasing it something along the lines of, "I received an offer for position X for $Megamillions and would like to give you an opportunity to respond before making a decision." I want to leave it open and not set any goals this direction either. Then, take it back to the new director and see where it goes. Anyways, I've handled the whole process professionally and, where appropriate, been transparent in letting my current/future directors know what is going on. So maybe leveraging will all work great... or, more likely, HR's algorithm will cap me at a certain point and I am harshly reminded of the difference between internal and external offers  Once again, thanks for the detailed responses! I'll let the thread know how it shakes out...
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Jun 30, 2016 22:25
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Quick follow-up to my internal negotiation situation: I received the offer for the new internal position which turned out to be pretty decent so I feel I have a great starting point no matter how it all shakes out. Since then, I've started the counter-offer process with my current director. With my new offer being pretty good, I'm not sure if the counter-offer will be able to exceed it. I've made it clear to my current director that the counter-offer would have to exceed the new offer in order for me to consider staying. If it's the case that the counter-offer doesn't surpass the new one, I'm guessing I don't have much of a BATNA to fall back on. Would it be worthwhile at that point (I know, always negotiate) to make a case for my own counter-offer/target salary (other parts of compensation aren't in play due to company policy)? I would assume I can't aim that much higher anyways, but I'm not sure. I think it would feel disappointing to not make my own counter-offer but I'd like to get this thread's expert advice for some guidance. This is keeping in mind that this will likely be the same HR person or team handling anything in my above scenario. Thanks, as always!
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Jul 8, 2016 01:52
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:In general I think we collectively avoid advising people to negotiate in bad faith. I really appreciate your response. I understand an internal move is low leverage so I wanted to get a feel from experts like you regarding best possible practice in this scenario. I've was very upfront with my current dept that I would consider a counter offer, but it might not be enough for me to stay -- even if it exceeds my new offer. There is a lot to gain career wise from taking the new position and my director has acknowledged as much. Anyways, I'm trying to utilize the small leverage I have but not do so in bad faith. My thought is that of the counter offer is outstanding then I truly would consider staying. I respect my current dept and wanted to give them a chance to respond before moving on. Hopefully this doesn't read as 'bad faith's to the experts in this thread. Thanks again for the advice.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:52
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Macaroni Surprise posted:I was reading up on this and listened to the podcast in the OP which talked about this subject. Where can I see some flexibility other than vacation time? I imagine insurance and 401k are set rates. There are some discounts with other companies and miscellaneous benefits like pet insurance and life insurance, but when it comes to negotiating compensation outside of pay, what can I even target other than pto? It certainly doesn't apply to every job, but some amount of 'working from home' time can be a very nice perk.
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Mar 8, 2017 12:51
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I've been reading this thread pretty closely for the past year or two (and can't thank the main contributors enough), but, admittedly, I haven't paid as much attention to the questions regarding location changes. So, my apologies if this treads over old ground. I am interviewing for position in a higher cost of living area (~14%). The president and COO are old colleagues that I have a great relationship with and who have basically told me they want to get me on the team. Additionally, I had actually interviewed with them last year and was made a decent offer for a position lower than the current one in question - the idea being the lower level position could eventually turn into this current one. At that time my spouse and I found out we were going to have a little one on the way so we decided the timing wasn't right. I have a decent BANTA in staying at what has become a very well paying position in my current low cost of living area but this opportunity would be a great step up in title and salary. Here's the catch, the reporting structure of the position is still being hammered out. If it reports directly to the President I have already talked over compensation with my old colleagues and it would be stellar (thanks negotiation thread!). However, if it's structured through the IT department then the salary is covered by a different business entity and might not have as prestigious of a title. I would also have to negotiate with the hiring manager over there (likely with some advocacy from my colleagues). My question is such: this thread has taught me to really base your ask on your skills, experience, value added to the company, etc. In this case, is it wise or helpful to also add the increased salary requirements based on the increase in cost of living? In other words, it becomes a 'secondary' reason as to why you are asking for the number you are. My gut tells me 'no' but given the prior relationships with top administration, I'm not sure if I can throw that reason on the pile as justify my ask. Thanks in advance!
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Mar 9, 2017 19:59
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I work remotely and have worked remotely in some regard since 2005, so this is what I do that works for me: If someone wants you to move to a higher COL area to work with them give them a choice between compensating you more for COL differences, or working with you to work remotely so the COL of where they choose to work doesn't affect you. Your advice is always so valuable - can't thank you enough. This position isn't compatible with remote work (unfortunately) so it looks like I'm all in for building my number around the increased COL. My guess would be that when it comes to providing your number during negotiation it would make sense to explicitly state in very clear terms the percentage or amount of the overall number that accounts for the increased COL?
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Mar 9, 2017 21:07
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I might be running up against a negotiation situation that is completely uncharted territory for me... I am likely going to be offered an IT director position at a firm run by some former colleagues of mine (they are in non-IT C-level positions). I really enjoy them and have gotten to know some other folks at this company and really like it. It's located many states away so I really want to make sure, as best as possible, that I'm in position to be successful before making a huge move. Through talks with my colleagues I am comfortable with the likely compensation/benefits/etc. The only issue I see is the staffing below this position. A major part of this position would be managing a large project that will require a lot of elbow to elbow work with the customers over the next few years. I would inherit one FTE who has had some sort of personal issues that now limit them to working remotely. From my past experience I can safely say that having only one onsite resource will be a disaster for a project this size. There needs to be at least one other onsite FTE to make this thing work. I've broached the subject a few times and the response seems to be a "yeah, we are planning on building a larger team over time." It's a tepid enough response it's really scaring me. Does anyone have any advice for this situation? What kind of assurance for adding another FTE is reasonable (assuming they will have to go through all the budget/HR/etc. perils normally associated with getting an entirely new position approved)? Thanks, thread! Fireside Nut fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 02:26
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Hi, incredible thread. I might have an upcoming opportunity to use an outside offer to leverage a better salary at my current position, or, accept the new offer. There are a few pros/cons to each position, but, overall, I'd really be happy either direction I go. My questions centers on the etiquette of this leveraging strategy. Is it acceptable to receive the offer from the outside company, turn around with a counter offer, and then take the response of the counter offer back to my current employer to see what they can do? Or is it best to take the initial offer from the outside company back to the current company and start there? (Or maybe another option I'm not familiar with?) I'm simply trying to maximize this potential opportunity since the whole leveraging game can only be used sparingly. Thanks so much!
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Jan 13, 2018 15:39
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Eric the Mauve, eriddy, Ultimate Mango, spf3million, and Dwight Eisenhower - thank you for your responses! I appreciate the feedback and feel much better about strategy going into this situation. I'll add this little tidbit since I thought it was an interesting part of the process: when I had my initial phone screen with HR they gave me the min/midpoints of the salary range within the first 5 minutes and asked if that was 'in the ballpark', so to speak. I hadn't encountered this yet in any of my interviews so it was a bit surprising. I gave the boilerplate response about making sure we are a good fit for each other, etc. but essentially said it's something we can work with. The range basically tracks the level above me at my current company so it's pretty easy to infer roughly where the top of the range sits. With this in my back pocket, I feel pretty comfortable throwing out the first number (in due time, of course, if we get to that point) to try and anchor myself to the high end of the range.
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Jan 14, 2018 19:13
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BeastOfExmoor posted:Just got off a call with a recruiter for a job I have an on-site for next week. We hadn't talked compensation at all and I deferred giving the usual, "I just want to make sure I'm a good fit." He shared where he thinks it'll end up, and the baseline before RSU's and signing bonus would be a straight up 100+% raise. Good luck!! Is the new position similar to your current? And/or are you currently underpaid? I’m just trying to figure out that big of a jump. Lol Really hope it works out either way!
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Jul 27, 2019 00:03
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After you add those in it comes close to 200%.
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I’m hoping for a double check of my possible strategy here. I was in a great position at my current employer until recently: have a great boss, enjoy the work, and the pay is great (especially for the area). However, my organization was just bought out by a larger one and I’m not sure how long until the cuts start, but don’t want to be caught flat footed. Also, the current IT leadership just installed last year is absolutely awful and the place is a mess and my role may be changing for the worse. And even though I had a nice promotion last year, I’ve also hit a wall in terms of possible career advancement in the next few years. It’s time to move on. Anyways, I’m aggressively looking/interviewing at places. I have a former colleague and friend at a large employer in a different industry but doing roughly the same work as I do now. He fast tracked my resume from the internal recruiter to his supervisors and put in a really good word for me. The position ranges are posted internally so he sent that my way. With that knowledge, my plan is to go through the interview process, hopefully wow them, and hold out on the salary discussion until the end. Then, with my advantage in knowing the range, anchor as high as possible. If the thread is in agreement with this strategy, I then need to figure out what’s a reasonable ask. Here’s a quick breakdown of the figures: Current salary: 120k with no bonus structure Potential employer salary range: Midpoint: 92k High End: 114k Avg Yearly Gainshare bonus of 18-28% (which I’m well aware isn’t guaranteed, but even with a tough year, there are a lot of improvements with this company: partial work from home, nearly double 401k match, LOTS of room for career advancement and skill building opportunities, etc.) I obviously want to come in as high as possible on the top of the range, but don’t want to sound unreasonable. Is asking for 120k a decent anchor? Thanks in advance!
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Sep 6, 2019 21:12
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:"My current salary is 120 and I would require total compensation better than that to move along" is a compelling narrative. Don't give away that you're eager to jump ship. Thank you! So you’d recommend actually giving away my current salary as part of the anchor? After reading this thread for the last year or two I have hard coded the idea of never giving away your current compensation, but I could see how the asymmetry in knowledge could help in this specific case. And, yes, I plan to frame it as I’m excited about the company, team, opportunities to expand my skillset, etc. and not about what’s going on at my current place. Great reminder though!
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Sep 6, 2019 23:23
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This thread is awesome and I’m just hoping for a quick on on whether this tactic is worthwhile. I interviewed organization A where I’d like to escape my current job, which very quickly turned to absolute poo poo for a number of reasons and may not even exist in another year. I left the last interview and got a call an hour and a half later with the hiring manager saying this is unprecedented, but we are already extending an offer this quick. So, they really want me and I know from my buddy who works there they have trouble filling positions because of lack of skill sets in the talent pool. Anyways, they they came in at 91k, the midpoint for the range, with a 15-28% bonus. I immediately countered to 113k (which I secretly know is basically the top of the overall range). They responded with 98k is the absolute max they have been given to offer for the position. They were explicit in saying they couldn’t go any higher. Here’s my question, is this a decent strategy: my goal is to get them to 102k by saying that’s the minimum I need to make a move. And hey, I am expecting another offer and my current company will likely counter offer when they find out about your offer - but I am willing to forgo those offers and sign right now if you can get to 102k. Sound ok? I’ll probably accept the position even if they don’t come up for a number of reasons I won’t bore you with, but I obviously want to do the best I can up front. Thanks thread!
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Oct 11, 2019 11:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:don't know why you would get in to all that nonsense about other offers and counteroffers when you can just say "102k is the minimum i can accept to make the move." keep in mind that at least in my eyes your credibility would be damaged somewhat if as the employer i held firm and then you took 98k anyway, but i hate liars. it's probably better to anchor it in terms of market, etc rather than personal requirement because if you say "market says 100-115 but if you can go up to 102 (based on my sick nasty skills and achievements that i can deploy for you ASAP) then i'll sign today and start in two weeks" and they refuse, you don't lose credibility by saying yes to 98. Thank you - this is some sick nasty advice
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Oct 11, 2019 13:47
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Glad you're enjoying the thread! Thanks, Dwight. I sincerely appreciate your reading of the situation and the advice. I’m probably coming off that way because I’ve received multiple offers from organizations in the area and the market rate has generally been decently below what my current company and the new company are willing to pay. In the end, I don’t want to walk away from the offer completely because, at the moment anyways, I know it’s going to be tough to do better until I acquire some new skills and accrue more time doing this type of work.
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Oct 11, 2019 14:55
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:This is the kind of valuable information that will help us advise you better, AND, that you absolutely need to guard from your negotiating counterparty! Thank you so much! Yes, I probably should have included more context - I always try to walk a fine line as to not include too much extraneous info when asking for advice in BFC. Some posts really drag on and I was trying to be as parsimonious as possible for the sake of generous folks like yourself, but I left out a key piece of info. I should be talking with them shortly so I’ll let the thread know how I turns out. No matter what, I already negotiated up 7k (which is magnified in the bonus and 6% 401k match) and will end up above market for the area, so I can take some solace in knowing that’s a win. 
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Oct 11, 2019 16:08
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Fireside Nut posted:I should be talking with them shortly so I’ll let the thread know how I turns out. No matter what, I already negotiated up 7k (which is magnified in the bonus and 6% 401k match) and will end up above market for the area, so I can take some solace in knowing that’s a win. Quick update: Company A basically said they already had to have special permission to get up to 98k so 102k was a no go. However, they did agree to front loading 5 vacation days out of the gate - so woohoo for negotiating that! The big shocking twist is that I contacted Company B I had been interviewing with to let them know I had an offer. I had thrown out 125k (roughly +10-15% market) early in the discussion knowing there was likely no way they’d get there but they really wanted me so I anchored high. They were creating the department/position from scratch and actually managed to get that number approved. So, Company B will likely be passing along that offer but it might not be ready for another week or two. I need to get back to company A tomorrow. I know I need out of my current gig, so is there any harm in accepting company A, putting in my mandatory 4 weeks notice at my current place, and then, if company B comes through, backing out on company A before I start there? I mean they weren’t able to get to exactly where I wanted salary wise so I feel that’s a good way to explain backing out without really burning bridges? Basically saying I’m sorry but I received an offer I can’t turn down that meets my salary requirements. Thanks again to everyone for your 
Fireside Nut fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Oct 13, 2019 |
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Oct 13, 2019 17:58
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Jordan7hm posted:Your plan is fine. Thank you! I appreciate the confirmation I wasn’t going to go about things the wrong way.
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Oct 13, 2019 18:24
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yep. Go ahead and take Company A's $98K, and if the $125K offer materializes (or, more likely, "we couldn't quite get approval for $125K but we can offer $115K") then you tell Company A "hey, no hard feelings but I just yesterday received a vastly better offer that I am compelled to accept, bye." Awesome - thanks again. Even if Company B doesn’t work out, Company A has a bonus that generally averages 15-26% so it’s still pretty competitive, but not guaranteed. No matter what, this thread and the interview thread have helped me ensure I can maintain my above market rate and leave an extremely lovely situation.
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Oct 13, 2019 19:00
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Fireside Nut posted:Company A basically said they already had to have special permission to get up to 98k so 102k was a no go. However, they did agree to front loading 5 vacation days out of the gate - so woohoo for negotiating that! Thank you all for your advice. A quick update: I started last Monday at company A (98k and 15-30% bonus) However, I was told/under the impression that there would be 1 day, at least, WFH. After starting I find out WFH is indeed very flexible, but not an official policy, and the senior manager isn’t big on WFH. So, combine that with a longer commute and I’m feeling a little miffed about that. Company B gave me a solid offer and really wanted me and is basically as much WFH as I want with maybe a day or two a week in the office (and the commute is negligible). Anyways, the big question is how bad would it be if I were to leave company A after a short time and went to company B (assuming they reactivate their offer)? I feel like I can avoid totally burning a bridge by telling company A they never met my salary expectations (min I asked for was 102k and they only got to 98k) and this was an offer I had to take (125k with a direct path upwards, better PTO). Of course, I wouldn’t tell them the details of B’s offer. I was at my previous company ~9 years so it shouldn’t look like I’m job hopping and I can explain the same thing to any future potential employer that I received a vastly superior offer I had to pursue. Would y’all agree here or any thoughts on how badly I gently caress things up if I leave? Thanks goons, seriously appreciate the advice 
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Nov 18, 2019 17:16
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Eric the Mauve posted:If it's not in writing, it doesn't exist. Not a Children posted:Also, agree with Eric on that a nebulous promise of WFH means nothing unless you got it in writing. Don't sweat it, everyone has to learn that lesson at some point. Thank you both. It’s a lesson I had learned over and over when reading this thread but didn’t adhere to strictly enough during this process. I have a buddy on the team and he fed me a lot of insider knowledge before even applying so I think it tainted what questions I asked the managers. At this point I’m not sure where I got the impression there was one day WFH a week. Regardless, it’s a perfect example of ‘get it in writing’. I negotiated 40hrs PTO up front which I did manage to get in writing, but not this. Oh well, lesson learned. Anyways, my biggest fear is burning a bridge here, but it sounds like maybe that’s not a massive concern if I frame my decision to leave as receiving a vastly superior offer I just had to pursue? Of course, I’ll say I really appreciated the offer here and enjoyed my time, etc etc. just to leave on good terms. I would just assume I wouldn’t be hireable at Company A for probably like 2 years or so.
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Nov 18, 2019 17:51
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Thanks all! Scheduled to talk to Company B this afternoon. Will let you all know if I can strike the match...
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Nov 18, 2019 19:51
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This thread is great and I owe a lot to it over the years - so I'd like to first say 'thank you' in advance for checking out this post! I'm sorry the length - trying to be as concise as possible, but still give all the details. Here is the situation/background: - I work in Healthcare IT. I started with my current company back in 2011. - I left my health care system for an IT job at a major insurance company in 2019 and favorably negotiated my entire compensation package (thank you, thread!). - For a variety of reasons I ended up coming back to my previous healthcare position in early 2020. I was again able to favorably negotiate on a number of items except my PTO. - For reference, PTO accrual rate is increased at 5 and 15 years of service. - I was firmly past the 5 years of service and had requested to have my seniority restored (this was not a problem for other folks who had left and come back) - The new VP HR (who no one liked) verbally communicated to the director over my position that the organization no longer honored past seniority and you have to start over. I fought this as hard as I could but there was absolutely no movement. - Regardless, I accepted the position, Covid hit, and I got incredibly busy at work. I honestly didn't think much about the PTO for a while. - However, just recently I actually pulled up the company's official policy document on PTO. Nowhere within the document does it describe the policy on seniority as it relates to individuals who are rehires. - Neither that VP HR or my director at that time are with the organization any longer. The VP HR left probably a year and a half ago or so. - Two and a half weeks ago I wrote a professional letter to HR explaining my entire situation, noted both the VP HR or director are gone, linked to the HR PTO document, and asked if they could point me to the policy or if it no longer exists. So far it's been crickets! They are usually pretty responsive, so I think they might be deciding how to respond. At this point does the thread recommend any next steps? Or should I just wait it out until they formulate their response? I thought about bringing up the topic with my manager/director, both of whom are wonderful, but are newer to the organization and might not have a lot of political capital. Anyways, thanks again and any thoughts would be wonderful.
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Aug 18, 2023 21:25
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Hadlock posted:You might have a leg to stand on if your IT group is unionized Thank you for the response! You are totally correct that the best time negotiate is before ever accepting an offer - I totally agree. I think my angle at this point is less about negotiating for only myself and instead putting the onus on HR to define this policy for all employees and hope it lands my way. It’s a bit of a long shot, but worth a go, I think, given the unique circumstances. Currently, HR’s very detailed PTO policy document only says that PTO accrual is based on years of service - this is in line with the original policy when I left the company. After I left, the short-lived VP HR appears to have “changed” the policy in an extemporaneous, unofficial manner. She was awful and no one liked her so I think she was pushed out rather quickly. Given all of that, I’m just not sure what the best next steps are now that HR appears to be sitting on my email while they figure out how to respond.
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Aug 18, 2023 23:13
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Parallelwoody posted:Aside from the fact that means something like 3 years of manual calculation corrections that I guarantee no one wants to deal with, that's to the point you're also involving finance because PTO is carried as a liability and could amount to a non inconsequential sum. Thank you. Maybe I should have made clear in the email I’m not looking for a backfilling of “lost” PTO, but simply to adjust my PTO accrual rate going forward. But I agree it’s unlikely I could get to the point where I can make that case.
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Aug 18, 2023 23:16
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Arquinsiel posted:I've been talking to so many recruiters of late that I've started my negotiations before I even consider the job spec. I'm just demanding they tell me the range for the role before I even bother giving them my potted history. It takes a long time to get through all that only to realise that they're looking to hire for an entry level role, so gently caress it. Tell me what you are looking to spend and I'll tell you if you can afford anything. I started doing the same a few years ago. It's just not worth doing the whole song and dance to find out the range is way below my target. Interestingly, many of the recruiters were much more cagey in the beginning. I've noticed in the last year or so they generally give up the ghost right away.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:30
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redreader posted:Thank you! I'm not a frequent/major contributor to this thread, but FWIW here's my advice if you do decide to take the intermediate job and are looking for how to explain it during future interviews: I think it's fine to list it on your resume. If asked to explain what happened, I would say something like, "Even though it was brief, I enjoyed my time at Company A, it was a great place to work. However, Company B made me a great offer which was an opportunity that I simply couldn't turn down." I mean, that's just a rough idea of what I would say, but my emphasis would be to focus on how you were desired and wanted by Company B and how great of an opportunity it was. I think hiring managers can understand and appreciate that much more than saying something like Company A wasn't a good cultural fit or something like that. Just my two cents. Good luck!
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Dec 8, 2023 20:32
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