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What you're worth is whatever the market is willing to pay you. (Your own definition of "the market" depends on your willingness to relocate.) When you brought up wanting a raise before and didn't get a raise, that should clue you in: they're in category B. Sorry dude. Your energy would be far better placed finding your next job than trying to enhance your current one.
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Apr 10, 2018 23:28
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Yeah. Persuasion is powerful, and leverage is powerful, and put together they can be really powerful. But they definitely are not the same thing. Persuasion is a skill you can (and must) develop. Leverage is just the factual reality of their BATNA versus yours.
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Apr 11, 2018 17:13
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You’re not going to get them a dime higher than $60K (now they know your current/last salary was significantly less than that) so probably the best plays are: 1. Getting a better offer from another company 2. Saying “the question only asked about salary” and asking for the sun moon and stars when it comes to nonsalary comp: PTO, WFH, flex time, 401k match, etc.
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Apr 25, 2018 12:34
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Chaotic Flame posted:Can you negotiate that? I've never heard of variable matching rates per employee before. Of course you can! Everything is always negotiable. Seriously though, you are of course correct that the percentage is pretty much always carved into diamond, but at many companies the matching doesn’t start until you’ve been there six months or a year or whatever, and that can definitely be negotiated to Right Away. And yeah if the retirement benefits are bad that’s definitely excellent cause to say “yeah, your 401k match sucks so I’m definitely going to need more salary to make up for it.”
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Apr 25, 2018 14:42
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Practice interview. Plus, you never know what opportunities may open up later if you positively impress someone.
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May 3, 2018 20:01
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Take whatever you'd accept and double it.
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May 11, 2018 03:36
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No more than putting 0 will. What I'm really saying is, in any situation that you are absolutely forced to name a number, make drat sure it's high because they WILL lowball it.
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May 11, 2018 03:59
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Your current manager could change at any time. Do not accept a counteroffer. Your boss might have the best intentions, but his/her boss will immediately begin finding a cheaper replacement for you and will unceremoniously fire you as soon as one is found. Go to the company that actively wants you.
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May 11, 2018 15:37
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The trouble is that they probably will agree to give you whatever raise you want--but not because they want to continue to invest in you long term. Rather, because it's a gigantic hassle for them to lose you abruptly and unexpectedly. They'd much rather pay you more for a few months to give themselves time to be prepared for your departure, at which point they will fire you. It doesn't happen every time someone stays with their current employer upon agreement to match an offer. Just, like, 85% of the time. You are probably not an exception. Betting that you are would be gambling on very bad odds. So, as Dwight said, you should accept a counteroffer if and only if (a) you're not actually that into the new offer AND (b) you're fully prepared to suddenly become unemployed in 3-6 months' time. Trusting your current boss has nothing whatsoever to do with it. (I guess I disagree with Dwight on this point. But just read a few pages, any few pages, of the Corporate America thread. It won't take long to find a "so my awesome boss just got fired/transferred/left for a better job, and my new one is a nightmare PHB" post.) Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 18:50 on May 11, 2018 |
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May 11, 2018 18:46
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Why do you want to be salary? Do you have a genuine concern that you won't get enough hours? That's really the only reason to want to be salary. Apart from that it's better to be hourly, because it guarantees you overtime pay if you go over 40 hours a week.
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May 11, 2018 22:16
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Obviously you want more PTO and the hours you like, yeah. If that's something only salaried employees get then that's definitely a reason to ask to be a salaried employee. Just take care to make it clear that what you really want is the PTO and a certain schedule. Because otherwise you run the risk of getting the drawbacks of salary without the benefits. It is entirely possible and in fact common for employees to be both salaried and required to be at the office whenever the hell their boss says so. Every company has their own rules. If working a certain schedule is important to you then that's what you need to negotiate, and preferably get in writing. Be prepared to get a lot of pushback or even just a hard no, though.
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May 12, 2018 00:26
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Are you willing to walk away if they say no?
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May 18, 2018 00:22
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Jordan7hm posted:Based on your posts in the corporate thread, the approach is for you to find a new job. This is 100% correct. But since we're here the answer to your question is: just tell them straight out what you will require. Politely but firmly. No long explanations that they can nitpick full of holes to weasel out of paying you. "You're proposing to dramatically expand my duties. Great! I welcome the challenge. I consider a 25% salary increase and a senior title appropriate for my new level of responsibility and look forward to getting started." Like, it's not just you so please don't think I'm singling you out for this. There are frequently posts in this thread asking basically the same question you did: "How exactly do I ask for more?" The technical answer is in the OP, in detail. The issue here isn't that you don't know how to ask for more, the issue is that you're too timid to. Asking for more is really easy. Keeping your nerves about you is much more difficult because you really have to believe deep down that you are awesome and the other guy is getting a bargain even at the price you're asking. Or failing that, you at least have to be an actor and play the part of a guy who believes he is that awesome. Your current employer doesn't respect you, and even if you grow brass balls now, they're still going to be used to the old timid you and will tell you no, assuming you'll quietly fold. So go find another employer--and be the guy who knows how awesome he is when you sit down to negotiate with them. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 23:47 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 23:43
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The nuclear option if they just shut you down with a hard no to anything is to hand in your resignation the following day. IF they are genuinely turbofucked without you they will probably accede to your demands to buy themselves enough time to arrange for your replacement, at which point, after a few months, they'll fire you--which is fine because you want out of there anyway and you'd then be getting paid via severance/unemployment to job search full time. I've seen this work more than once, but it really requires the employee to be genuinely irreplaceable in the short term and the employer to not be so petty they'll let the employee walk just out of spite without caring how hard it fucks the department. In your case (C-E) I don't really recommend it because it's more aggressive than you're comfortable with being. But it's an option. It's basically a "guess what, my short term BATNA sucks but yours is even worse, I'm calling your bluff" move.
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May 24, 2018 03:19
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Another thing you could choose to do is to neither resign nor accept the new responsibilities without commensurate compensation. I don't have crisp thoughts on this being better or worse than just resigning. Very situation dependent but this is probably better than accepting the new responsibilities without more pay and/or a title enhancement. Basically just telling them flat no--"if my position and salary are remaining the same then thank you but I am not interested in increased responsibility"--and daring them to fire you. Depending on the jurisdiction and how petty/personal the company is inclined to be, though, they could choose to turn that into a willful misconduct case to deny you unemployment comp after firing you. You'll know they're going that route when you start getting written warnings; in most jurisdictions it takes a big pile of documentation to prove willful misconduct. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 16:21 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 16:17
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Job descriptions always end with "other duties as assigned by supervisor". An employer always can tell you to do whatever the hell they want to and then fire you for willful misconduct if you refuse. But it's a huge pain in the rear end to actually prove the WC case, and your long term interests are best served by consistently refusing to do extra work for free. Agreeing to that even once starts you sliding down a very slippery slope.
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May 24, 2018 17:21
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Absolutely. But the question is: if they say take it or leave it, are you going to take it? Also note that this is why you negotiate total compensation, never just salary. You shouldn’t agree to a salary before you know every detail of non-salary compensation too.
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Jun 8, 2018 15:36
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Your BATNA is strong so you can ask for more with polite confidence. Don’t ask for the minimum you will accept. Ask for more. Also don’t be shy about asking for more PTO and defaulting back to “well then I’m going to need more salary” if they say no.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:31
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't think this is a good reason not to ask for it. Agreed, except for this quibble: you don’t need a story and shouldn’t give one. It’s not about your story. It’s about your BATNA. Negotiating is basically both sides bluffing about the strength of their BATNA and seeing who blinks first, but you go into it knowing exactly what your BATNA actually is and exactly what is, ultimately, the absolute minimum that tops that. (And of course it’s ideal to also go in knowing what the other side’s BATNA actually is. Hence why HR people are getting increasingly insistent on knowing your current/last salary and why you should never ever tell them.)
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Jun 12, 2018 15:54
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“Your benefits package is inadequate so I will require $110,000 a year in salary to make this move worthwhile.” Don’t overcomplicate or overthink it. Just tell them politely but assertively what you want. Be prepared to walk away if they balk, though. Anything is possible but in my experience (unless it’s a small company) sucky benefits usually indicate the company has three priorities when it comes to staffing: cheap, cheap, and cheap.
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Jun 13, 2018 13:44
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Ah, that’s different then. Assuming you’re in the US, the benefits suck because the healthcare system is rigged to screw small companies. So you still need a high enough salary to make it worthwhile, but you can definitely frame it sympathetically.
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Jun 13, 2018 15:01
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:He already anchored at 100 plus five weeks vacation so i don't really approve of resetting your ask to a higher point Actually I just made up the $110,000 number and wasn't paying attention to what his ask was, so yes obviously don't move it now.
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Jun 13, 2018 22:38
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Just as a note, don't accept bonus in lieu of salary unless it's unconditional (it won't be).
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Jun 14, 2018 15:16
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Yeah my note about bonuses definitely doesn't apply for consulting. But out in the corporate world companies will try to sucker you with promises of big bonuses in exchange for lower salary.
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Jun 14, 2018 23:26
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They are trying to lock her down so she can't work for anyone else. That's what they get by making her a FTE instead of an IC, and that poo poo is worth waaaaay more than $5K a year. So even considering that she would no longer have to pay both sides of FICA, if her BATNA really is strong as you say, unless they actually offer nonsalary benefits that are significantly valuable my initial ask would probably be $85,000 and I wouldn't settle for a penny less than $75,000. Maybe not even that low, again depending on benefits and costs. Standard caveat that I know absolutely nothing about the industry in question and know nothing about her situation but what you posted.
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Jun 26, 2018 17:01
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:She can certainly ask for her benefits to be paid for by the company, as well - no reason she can't set that as the baseline so all comparisons are apples-to-apples with regard to takehome pay. Yes, definitely. I get the impression this is not the kind of outfit that offers any significant benefits, though.
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Jun 26, 2018 17:07
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Your BATNA is refusing the promotion and remaining in your current role. Theirs is shrugging and offering it to someone else. Unless you’re actually fine with staying at status quo, you have no leverage and they have you by the metaphorical balls. To be sure I have this right, this promotion to Intern First Class DOES come with a pay bump and you’re just asking if you can maybe get a bigger pay bump, right?
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Jun 27, 2018 12:22
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All of that matters only if you’re actually willing to say “I require $X a year or I decline this role” and then follow through with it if they refuse. And if you do that then you’ll need fo find a new employer lickety split because they will begin searching for your replacement that very day.
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Jun 27, 2018 14:13
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Mandatory reminder that if you have a worthwhile offer from another company, take it. Don’t invite your current employer to match or top it. They will likely agree and then immediately start lining up your replacement, and as soon as that’s arranged they’ll unceremoniously fire you. Just hand in your resignation.
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Jul 2, 2018 09:35
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"Make it rain, bitches."
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Jul 6, 2018 18:16
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1. You can ask and at least professionally put the brass on notice that you want to move up, but you have no BATNA, thus no leverage, thus they have no reason to give you a dime and likely won’t. 2. The only reliable way to get meaningful raises/promotions is to seek employment elsewhere, because then you will have a strong BATNA (keep my current job and/or take a different offer). 3. Never go over your boss’s head unless it’s your goal to provoke them to fury.
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Jul 21, 2018 17:03
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m0therfux0r posted:The illusion of very careful consideration I guess? I get weirdly nervous about people thinking I answered too fast too even though it's probably not even something they think about. Just as likely responding immediately gives the illusion (if not actual reality) that (a) you want the job, but also (b) you know what level of compensation you expect and their first offer wasn't it. Like don't respond immediately immediately because you don't want them thinking/realizing you're sitting around  'ing looking for an email from them. But responding after like an hour is fine.
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Jul 23, 2018 22:45
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Biomute posted:The response I did get is both encouraging and puzzling. Basically they're saying that because of their focus on developing the skills of their consultants, and allowing them free time to hone their skills instead of spending every hour of the week doing billable work, they're not able to pay as much as other places. Their argument is that this makes them a better place to work, and more suited to my needs. I agree with them about this, it is why I went to them first, although similar freedoms and systems are not entirely uncommon elsewhere in the industry. They also say they have a good pension plan etc. I just want to chime in and reaffirm that this is extreme bullshit and you should, in a professional manner, call them out on it.
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Aug 20, 2018 03:07
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I mean yeah if you want to say "I'm worth $60K and here's why" go ahead. But if you already let slip that you're going to accept $52K then in no circumstance are they now going to offer even $52,001. Now that I've said that I should add a disclaimer that all my experience is in the corporate world and I know nothing about academia.
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Aug 29, 2018 13:44
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“After I had some time to think over our last conversation, I am no longer interested in working for your company. Goodbye.”
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Sep 8, 2018 19:36
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Motronic posted:A multi-year commitment from them with a gigantic golden parachute. In writing. Reviewed by your own employment/contract attorney and fully executed by both parties. This is the correct answer. Biomute posted:How to negotiate a raise? With a different employer.
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Sep 11, 2018 00:40
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Yeah, I have some advice.El Mero Mero posted:I spoke with my department head about it and they said absolutely not, that we were too short staffed. Your department head should turbofuck him/herself with a garden rake. The relevant question here is: is this person powerful enough in the company to prevent you from transferring? If no, take the transfer and begin looking for your next job, knowing you won't be going back. If yes, drop it and begin looking for your next job, because even having the conversation with your department head about it 100% put you on their shitlist. Just their reaction makes it clear what kind of person they are.
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Sep 12, 2018 00:49
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El Mero Mero posted:I mean, in her defense we had a key person announce that they'd be leaving soonish last week, so she's not wrong.. That’s her misfortune. But blocking your career for selfish reasons is never anything but a dick move on her part. You owe her nothing. If you don’t do what’s right for you first, foremost, and always, you’ll spend your life getting stepped on by opportunists and pragmatists. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Sep 12, 2018 |
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Sep 12, 2018 12:04
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Jordan7hm posted:You absolutely should be looking for a new job but your department head doesn’t owe you anything. Not letting you leave on an assignment when it puts her department’s work in jeopardy is doing her job. All of this is very true and I’ve been there as a manager too. But my move in that situation was to say “I’m sorry but right this moment your role is critical to this project and I can’t let you move. But in three months’ time I will let you go. And here’s a small bonus as a thank you.” (It actually ended up being two months, and the bonus essentially came out of my pocket.) SOME managers actually respect their employees as individuals with their own careers to mind, and balance their own department’s needs against that. But most managers (like most employees!) are just selfish dicks. There’s also the element of what’s good for the long term (a reputation as a manager people trust and want to work for is immensely valuable in the long term) versus what’s good for the short term (if this particular person leaves it might result in my department failing and my getting fired, so I will do absolutely anything to prevent this particular person from leaving). But in modern corporate America there’s practically no such thing as a long term anymore.
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Sep 12, 2018 12:37
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:ok the idea that you have to pay out a bonus in that case is patently absurd Didn’t HAVE to. I did it because she was awesome and I appreciated her having a good attitude about staying around and delaying a transfer she would rather have made. My boss agreed with you about it though 
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Sep 12, 2018 13:30
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