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Vox Nihili posted:Due to changes in the law, prospective employees in California can no longer be asked about prior salary as of January 1, 2018. Another potential deflection tool for those getting hounded on it during interviews/negotiations. Some other jurisdictions have similar laws in place (Oregon, Massachusetts, Delaware, NYC). Wow that is really interesting. Dumb question: My next hire will be in Texas, but I and my office are in CA. Texas rules apply, since the person will work in Texas, right? Once again, gently caress California and boy am I glad I live here. A job or two ago they actually wanted to see my W2 for the last job because I was asking for, and eventually got, more than they wanted to pay me. Ultimate Mango fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 06:01
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While living in CA is nice, I don’t really get a lot of benefit from all of the insane rules we have. Managing people in CA kind of sucks, since there is extra stuff you have to know about. I appreciate knowing that I can’t ask about salary any more, but it’s kind of nice being able to ask from the hiring perspective. Double edged sword and all that.
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Jan 9, 2018 04:11
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Jordan7hm posted:You know (theoretically at least) what your absolute max you're willing to pay for the position is, and if someone's salary is higher than that you can just move on to the next candidate, so really it's just about a tool to help you pay less than what you think an employee is worth. Previous salary is not indicative of future performance. That’s good perspective. I honestly hadn’t considered it that way. I have certainly worked in organizations that focus too hard on giving employees the bare minimum, and it certainly creates the problems you suggest. Where I work now we actually work to take care of people, but it is helpful to for certain types of roles understand the kind of comp backgrounds people have. Highly paid, high variable earners can be tricky, and having poor alignment for those roles and their comp is no fun.
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Jan 9, 2018 06:32
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Eric the Mauve posted:You really have to feel it out for yourself, but be warned that in many cases when you come to your employer with "I received an offer for $X from Acme Corp., will you match or should I tender my resignation?" the current employer will agree to match just to buy themselves time to quietly line up your replacement before firing you. Pretty much every place I have worked that would even consider matching does exactly this. Most places I take it as an immediate resignation. If people come to me wanting to make more money, we can usually find a way. If people come wanting to shake me down with a competing offer, it’s adios. Even if we do match to ‘save’ someone, you know it’s a matter of time before they go.
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Jan 14, 2018 03:46
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I realize I’ve been gone for a while but wanted to come back and share a success story and ask for advice: Got laid off in January, and after a brutal search took something that provided benefits and some income/upside but not at the level I was before (long story, not going into it here). Went through the process at a large software company, and never once gave a number. I was also an idiot and didn’t ask for the range (I should have). Got through the interview process and the hiring manager finally wanted to talk numbers. I was offered $5k less base but a good overall package (bonus and RSUs). Ended up negotiating for $20k more base (so $15k more per year compared to previous) and they bumped the OTE a few k as well. I was able to do this because I knew my worth and stuck to my guns (and I knew they wanted me). Offer accepted, I start after Labor Day. Here’s the tricky part: I currently work for the CEO of a small company, and my compensation is nearly entirely tied to how much I directly bill customers (basically high end consulting work). I am not billing now and am not scheduled to start a project until after Labor Day. I want to be decent and give notice, but since I’m not billing (and the company isn’t in great financial position right now) it would be easier and cheaper for the CEO to just let me go immediately vs have me stay another two weeks. I can’t afford to do COBRA and not get paid anything for two weeks before my new job starts. I tried to get my new job to start me next week but they can’t move that fast. I think I just need to quit in two weeks vs giving notice and screwing myself when I end up with no income and an insurance gap (and a family who needs it). Yes, I’m an At-Will employee. Yes, its a lovely move. Yes, I think the CEO would just term me if I resigned, since I’m costing him money. Am I crazy?
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Aug 21, 2019 05:24
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leper khan posted:
Not a Children posted:It is not your job to make an industry fair. If it wasn't for America's Actually Factually Insane and Cruel Insurance System I'd say be honest and leave now, but since you have a family to care for hold onto that insurance until you can make that smooth transition. spwrozek posted:I would probably do what you plan but you do have 60 days to accept COBRA as long as you pay your premium before day 60. Also your employer may not offer COBRA coverage if it is a very small company as they can be exempt I believe. Zauper posted:You're burning a bridge if you do this. This thread always delivers, I like that there are a few different perspectives here. Given my current employer's position, I seriously doubt they would keep me until September 3. That means I would have to do some Cobra since insurance at the new job doesn't start until the 3rd or 4th. Cobra would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,800. I don't know that I would be eligible for unemployment (I basically used that benefit for all I can this year already during my period of unemployment). Yes, I could play the 'wait and see' game with insurance, but short strokes are I know I'll need it for reasons not pertinent here. I would hate to burn a bridge, but it kind of is like burning a bridge made of popsicle sticks in the backyard. Still not something I want to do. Sadly the thing I am kicking myself most over is not asking for the range during the interview process. I suppose I have to look out for number one, and be as kind as I can to the people on the titanic behind me (my friend who recruited me is also looking to leave).
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Aug 21, 2019 17:15
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Crazyweasel posted:An update - offer came in and it is put together as a true lateral, i.e. same job grade and no raise. Going to have to prep hard for this one because I'm a bit surprised they didn't even throw some extra money in. I work for a Fortune 100 corporation so Glassdoor is stacked with data that tells me average for this pay grade is 20% higher than my current pay. I'm thinking their only excuse is "well we know what you are making now and we want to low-ball the poo poo out of you" Use the promotion as leverage to go work someplace else.
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Aug 23, 2019 17:01
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just_a_person posted:Would the co-founders know the specifics? I have co-authored papers with 3 out of the 5 co-founders and have met the other two at conferences, and while I don't think they have specific say in how the company is run (i.e., who gets hired), I can check if any of them are on the board or been on any of the investor meetings, and if so, they might know whether or not the burn rate/current cash on hand is correct. Cash is king. If you are a strategic hire you need 10x the equity they offered. If not you need market value in cash and 2% equity on top. Otherwise you are wasting your time.
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Aug 24, 2019 07:21
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Ghostnuke posted:jokes on you, I'm dumb as poo poo Management material, hoss. Get yourself a key to the executive washroom and a University of PHOENIX MBA.
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Aug 26, 2019 04:57
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Fireside Nut posted:Thank you! So you’d recommend actually giving away my current salary as part of the anchor? After reading this thread for the last year or two I have hard coded the idea of never giving away your current compensation, but I could see how the asymmetry in knowledge could help in this specific case. Get through the interviews first. Be awesome, make them want you, and make them make you an offer that will get you away from your current job, which you LOVE. Be a “not in play” player.
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Sep 7, 2019 05:00
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Dik Hz posted:Yup, they can pay market rate for your talent or get hosed. Thread title kthx
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Sep 10, 2019 03:39
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Turnquiet posted:All the millennials who survived starting their career during the crisis and were told to be grateful to even have a job circa 2009 learned that being a labor mercenary is the only sane response in this capitalist hellscape and now that they have hit their peak performing years they have no qualms about job hopping when an org won't pay them their worth because it's the orgs that should be grateful to have them putting their skillsets to work for their benefit. Get hosed, bosses. Get paid, workers. What kind of amazes me is the total shift in stigma regarding job hopping. Used to be you were looked at in bad light for changing jobs even every two years. Stability and longevity was an admired trait. Now it seems like people who don’t move are dinosaurs. This is coming as a dinosaur who has had two stints of a year or less over the past 5 or 6 years. And I kind of hope my new current gig lasts a nice long while.
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Sep 11, 2019 02:35
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What is this threads view on employer contribution to benefits (or employee’s cost) as a part of total comp? My last 3 jobs were all with small ish companies, and coming to a larger firm the difference is staggering. I think new employer is putting in at least $20k per year more into my benefits staggering. Both better benefits and significantly less employee contribution. Also, are you ‘required’ to list all previous positions when applying for employment? I have done some consulting to fill gaps between jobs, but I wouldn’t list that in my history. I also wouldn’t list anything I did for a few months and bailed. The gaps are easier to explain than the short stints with other odd jobs...
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Sep 12, 2019 00:15
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spwrozek posted:It is very important to consider. My company does a yearly document for us that lists all our comp. So salary, PTO, bonus, health Care, etc. Above my car salary and PTO the company puts in about $50k. Cool to see how it is changed as well in the last 8 years. That’s really cool. In my two plus decades in the workforce I don’t think any employer of mine has broken out all of everything like that. And I’ve worked at places with 3,000 to over 150,000 employees (and also less than ten). Definitely the smaller places or ones who use something like Trinet have made the employees pay more. The best was a large German company who even gave US employees European style benefits and coverage. My new gig is a close second and dang it’s nice.
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Sep 12, 2019 04:49
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leper khan posted:What’s the best way to value stock grants from a startup? I had thought everyone moved to RSU’s for the deferred tax liability, but here we are. If there is monetization behind startup stock grants, then they actually have value. If they are options, assume they are worth zero. Even if they aren’t or never are, assume them to be zero. It only matters when you exercise, and you have the capital to fund them (unless you have a fancy plan). Some options plan have a way to self fund (holdback) funding them, and some handle taxes. Some RSU plans are mature enough to account for taxation (I’ve had times where they held back RSU money to pay for taxes and made it super easy). Some RSU plans make you do the work. Some straight up stock grant plans have the nice options to handle taxes and such, I’ve seen it both ways. You may have to read the plan paperwork. It sucks but even ‘phantom stock’ (oh god I’m dating myself) has ways for you to figure it all out.
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Sep 12, 2019 22:44
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Hoodwinker posted:I sent an email to Company 1 right after I heard from Company 2 and got an auto-response from the HR rep saying they're out of office until Wednesday So call the hiring manager. Or VP. Or someone with power and authority in the process to poo poo or get off the pot.
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Sep 21, 2019 05:58
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Never give a number. Know what you are worth. Ask for a lot more than what you want, since they will always counter you. If you get more, keep your trap shut and take it. Some things are worth money but aren’t cash (my new job pays so much of my health plan, it’s like making $20k more elsewhere, pre ipo stock may be worth zero but still leave you tax liability).
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Sep 22, 2019 04:46
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fourwood posted:Just started a new job with unlimited, I‘d been there for 1 month and then left for 2 weeks. I think I’m doing this right? Only if you take two weeks next month, too.
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Sep 27, 2019 06:02
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Whenever I saw that question I put $0 or picked the lowest option and put an appropriate comment someplace. In the state of CA, this question might not even be allowed. Good luck Weatherman! Keep us updated. In other news, I was able to say to someone this week, with a straight face, that I am looking for my first seven figure year. Played chicken, didn’t blink, the other guy didn’t blink back. This was a VC type scenario, so my assumption is that nothing will actually happen.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:59
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Xguard86 posted:
Having given the million dollar (I used seven figure) number was the most empowering thing I’ve done in a long time. Did it for the first time this year and will do it always from now on. Until I am actually making seven figures and have to start asking for eight.
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Oct 10, 2019 03:52
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How do you negotiate with someone trying to rob you on the street? My experience is limited, but I managed to keep my phone and everything with my name on it. I did not take the bullet that was apparently in the chamber of the glock 9, but I don’t think they really wanted to give it to me. Applying BATNA to this scenario is rather interesting...
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Oct 18, 2019 05:24
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moana posted:Holy hell, with a gun? That's scary as gently caress. I've always heard the advice to throw your purse on the ground and then run, most robbers won't chase/shoot you if they are trying to pick up your purse first but if you stick around then things could get much worse than just losing your stuff. I’ve wanted to write about it for a long time. But thinking about it as a negotiation helped. They got cash. I kept my identifying documents and my phone. They went to jail. I moved to another city, but I also didn’t get literally shot.
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Oct 19, 2019 04:47
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exquisite tea posted:How would handle this situation of negotiating for (significantly) more pay if I've already been offered the position via email and the starting salary is in writing? Some details. Why do you think they cannot know they are lower than where you need to be? If you have an offer in writing, you absolutely need to reject or counter. “Company A, thank you for your offer. Your offer is significantly less than what I’m seeing on the market, and even though this looks like a great role/company, I need at least (x% or $y) more that you are offering in order to accept. If you can amend the offer, I would be ready to accept and start of $DATE$” It would really help if you knew the range for the role for which you interviewed. Do you know that? When I changed jobs recently, I didn’t name a number. The first offer (verbal, common in my line of work to negotiate verbally and come to agreement before written offers are generated) was definitely a lowball. Less than what I could accept. I knew the range and what I was worth, and was able to counter with “thanks for the offer, but you are at least x% low on the base, and I need my OTE to start with a (digit higher than they offered).” This led to my getting higher than band for base and an OTE that representing a >20% raise. I ended up at the top end, from their initial lowball. At some point, you do need to talk numbers. Just don’t flinch first.
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Oct 24, 2019 17:25
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exquisite tea posted:This particular organization did give me the salary range they're offering now at the very end of the first interview (not a specific number). But this was at the VERY end of a first interview that already went 90 minutes long, and when they didn't get back to me for the second interview for over a month, I thought it was pointless to discuss salary then. But now I've advanced my application with a couple other roles that are paying more along the lines of what I'd expect in a program management role. One small tweak. Don’t say you need X. Anchor above X so that when they offer you less than you ask, you end up where you want to be.
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Oct 24, 2019 18:07
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Muscular Typist posted:Hi thread, this is a cross-post from the Corporate thread regarding a job application that has progressed to the negotiation stage. If you are in CA and have made it through the first round, ask for a range. They are obligated to tell you and you don’t have to tell them poo poo. Get the range. Ask for the top end of it, or anchor above it.
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Nov 16, 2019 06:15
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Just remember, retained search (or executive search) is a different animal altogether from your typical recruiter. I have worked with several proper search consultants, and the level of access and insight and influence can be good. Many times they help the company figure out what they really need (not what they think they want). Likely outside the scope of most situations here, but worth calling out.
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Nov 24, 2019 17:33
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another loser posted:Question for the thread. I'm in the middle of the interview process with a couple different companies, and been following the "never say a number" mantra. What are you looking for? You can tell US a number. It’s kind of hard to give you advice if we don’t know if you would be ecstatic with $85k or if you need $120 to keep your house.
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Dec 8, 2019 17:07
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PIZZA.BAT posted:I would love to know how much lovely HR practices like that are costing the American work force each year. There's so many people out there who have no idea that negotiating is even a thing- let alone having the willpower to do actually do it. If my time in outsourcing taught me one thing, it was that there is always someone willing to do the job for less. I would venture that a very material portion of job seekers do not have a BATNA and will take what is offered. For some jobs, the wage is what it is. I’ve never had a union gig, which I figure has some restrictions, but I’ve done enough public price list gov work to know there isn’t always a lot of room in those jerbs.
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Dec 10, 2019 04:09
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Mambo No. 5 posted:Hello, I have read through the OP and I have one question. What about when you're interviewing for a different position at the same company? I may have an opportunity to interview for a different position in the same department I currently work. They already know my current pay so that chip is off the table. You have zero leverage with your current employer without an offer from someone else. BATNA. Always BATNA. Yours is the job you have. They have all the power. On another note HEY THREAD: Has anyone here done a Porters 5 Forces analysis on this kind of thing? I mean changing jobs?
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Jan 5, 2020 06:44
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Internal job changing is top of my mind. I have a friend who is being approached for jobs in at least five departments where he works (he is a HiPo who is widely recognized and overdue for a promotion). Dude will do well by not saying much and getting competing offers. I’m four months in at my company, have made it through a few rounds for an internal promotion, and just got a call from another VP basically offering me yet another different role. For the out of the blue opportunity, I did name a number, but did so knowing it would protect my current base and give me significantly more upside (otherwise they would have offered me a lateral with less base). For the other one, it would be a full level up with more everything. Even if I don’t get either of these, I still have a great job so my BATNA is solid.
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Jan 10, 2020 06:14
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Inner Light posted:Is this a sales type position? Having a promotion on the table after 4 months in seems exceptional, even when you hear during the interview phase that a promotion would be over some hill the conventional wisdom is it usually doesn't materialize. My situation is rather unique. For the straight up promotion: If I were not in my current role at my current company, I would be an excellent external candidate. My skill set and breadth of experience is unique, and some exceptions were made despite my short tenure (it was discussed as a part of my interviewing and hiring process). If this were just a courtesy I would not have made it through the number of rounds I have so far. For the other role it’s a new position that doesn’t exist today at my company, and would move me into the sales org (but it’s a little nuanced and complex, and there is some stuff that isn’t figured out yet in how it world work). It’s fun being in a high growth organization at the right time.
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Jan 10, 2020 07:49
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Eric the Mauve posted:I’ve seen it happen lots outside of sales, all it takes is an executive taking a shining to you. My team is a little weird. Most of us are Director/VP level individual contributors with a lot of leeway both do our jobs and help with other projects and departments. By design we are all kind of special/top people in our areas. I have also seen the executive game players and the weird one off situations and the lucky salesperson get a 300% bluebird and get promoted.
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Jan 11, 2020 06:19
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Lizzy posted:I just want to thank the advice in the thread. I'm one month into my new job with a 76% increase in pay from my last role. Awesome, well done! One more for the list of great success from this thread.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:34
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Russian Bear posted:Thanks everyone who encouraged me to negotiate on a fresh out of college position. It was the scariest email I've ever sent, but resulted in a couple extra thousand being added to my offer. May you learn to bask in the glory of compound interest (or accelerated college debt service! Whatever floats your boat) Congrats
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Jan 16, 2020 06:25
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Xguard86 posted:Someone once said "never say no just name a ridiculous price" You can play it a few ways. Ask for a million bucks with a straight face if you can. Or ask for something that is just on the very edge of sanity for whatever job or industry you are in. Enough for someone to wonder if you are really serious, and if you are how good you use be to be worth it. THE MACHO MAN posted:This is exactly what I do for pushy people who won't give you a band first, and this post matches my experience. They either gently caress off, or every now and then you get lucky. My baseline for pushy people is a $10-15k raise from where I am now, and say I want to move up from that so you can always 'settle' and be okay. I don’t think they can look at or consider or ask about salary in some places. California at least has some crazy crazy rules. And don’t short change yourself with a number. For many jobs and people and industries, $15k raise isn’t so tough to make happen.
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Jan 19, 2020 05:43
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Dik Hz posted:There's a weird fallacy where asking for more money makes you appear more valuable. Two employees with the same productivity, the higher paid one will be perceived as more valuable. It’s one of the ten weird fallacies that actually worked on behalf of the job seeker. Number six is the one that HR representatives really hate! But seriously. Don’t lie. Anchor high.
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Jan 20, 2020 06:44
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Eric the Mauve posted:One million dollars. This is a good answer. I have used this and it works. Zero or one also works. The goons with seven figure plus incomes generally done have to name numbers either. I still hope to be in that group one day.
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Jan 21, 2020 06:46
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Take the job and start interviewing for market rate positions elsewhere immediately.
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Jan 28, 2020 04:20
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Jumpsuit: what is your BATNA? What you are doing now might be more corporate politics than negotiation. Also, congrats!
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Jan 30, 2020 07:37
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My current boss is losing half his team. I was up for either a promotion on the team I’m on or a move to another position on another team. I didn’t get the same-team promotion (it was always going to go to one person who is a great individual contributor, but not a leader), and surprise surprise my boss’ bossX2 was a little surprised that I was taking the other role (vs staying where I am). I had my facts and data in order, and when the SVP asked about risk tolerance I was able to point out exactly why staying in current job was actually more risky than changing roles and since he didn’t advance me to management to help my current team, I was going to go for the new opportunity. I knew my BATNA, I knew my options, and I am ending up in a pretty great position without burning any bridges. Meanwhile current boss is kind of making GBS threads bricks because everyone is leaving his team.
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Feb 15, 2020 06:55
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