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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:So I need help with a spot negotiation. I joined a new job in July with the prospect of beginning as a junior associate here and using my academic time (paid days not working) to earn my MBA. Everyone seems really enthusiastic about this job, and it's essentially a requirement for a job I want down the line. My department gives us continuing education funds every year totalling 6,000 for whatever we want. I'm using two years of my continuing education money toward my MBA. Along the way, for convenience in scheduling the degree (single days off, fewer academic days required) and less total time taken, I decided to enroll in the executive MBA instead. The EMBA is very nice but costs about twice as much money (60,000 total instead of 30,000). So I approached the chair of my department yesterday for more funds. She didn't say no, but instead asked me to write her a proposal. My personal thoughts are: don't ask them for anything and withdraw your request for money and cover the liability for your EMBA that you really need more than an MBA out of your own pocket. Any program you come up with that involves them fronting you 30 grand a year would need either: - You specifically being an executive MBA being superlatively valuable, to your employer, over them hiring some EMBA from outside the company. - You surrendering a significant amount of leverage in leaving this job in the form of future liability, either in the form of contract binding your continued employment or liability to repay the tuition your employer provided. Without a cogent argument for why #1 would be true, that you can present, you are in #2. And #2 sucks for negotiating for your own interests in the future. Even if you have a cogent argument for #1, why would the chair chunk all of this money into you so that in two years you can get up and leave to get paid $$$ somewhere else and she's back at square 1? This whole thing reeks of coming up with the desire up front (getting the MBA, doing the EMBA program) and then trying to backfill the means to it later. That's not good planning, and you don't have a great position from which to negotiate. The best outcome I would look at here is getting them to front you the $30k / year under a repayment penalty plan, and then socking away an equivalent amount of money into a high yield savings account so you can at least get interest on it over the life of your degree.
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Oct 13, 2016 19:46
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:The reason I'm asking for more money is that this MBA costs more that the MBA we discussed when I joined. This is your reason for asking for more money for this MBA. You need to figure out your Departmental Chair's reason for giving more money for this MBA.
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Oct 14, 2016 15:04
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Whole lotta focusing on the thing that will likely not happen (demanding to see the other letter) to forget about the actual move that'll happen: "Fine, go take the other offer." You can bluff and overplay your hand and maybe get away with it. But if you try to bluff you MUST be ready to take the $39k offer because you're about to make that your only option.
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Oct 17, 2016 20:24
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Bluedeanie posted:Forgive me if I'm overthinking this a bit, but I have a semantics question. The only time this really needs to concern you is getting into a mindset of playing long term, multi-round negotiation games with the same party. If you try to nudge higher and they don't budge and you accept, then you've shown that you'll buckle during negotiations without getting any additional concession. This will embolden whoever you negotiate with to just shoot you down in the future. It might also give a leading impression that you're easily trod upon. The solution to both of these problems is to do what you're already doing: secure leverage in the form of alternatives. Consequently don't eagerly burn bridges with your candidacy that you do not prefer, as you can potentially use it for leverage to push up the other offer. Just remember that to really push, you need to be willing to go with the offer that is not your preference. In short: - Get a good offer from the sub-optimal opportunity as leverage. - Ply it with your preferred employer. - Don't overplay your hand if you're not willing to take the sub-optimal offer. - If you buckle and take this offer you want, you might set up a disadvantageous negotiating position with THIS SPECIFIC EMPLOYER in the future. You can fix this by moving jobs elsewhere. - Don't overthink it, you're in a good position!
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Oct 25, 2016 17:05
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Cacafuego posted:If I am granted an offer by company B, what's the best way to inform my employer? Do I tell them that I was offered $X salary or $more than I'm getting now? If I read correctly, it's best to only do this once and either accept if they counter or move on to company B and face the uncertainty (but embrace the higher pay), correct? People jump ship constantly in this line of work, with companies offering $10-20k bonuses frequently for people with experience, so I'm sure they won't be blindsided. I've played this move before and proceeded to stay at my same employer for another 2.5 years afterwards. Disloyalty is a minor dimension if you deliver, are valuable, and make your company money / make your boss look good. IF and ONLY IF you have an offer from B that you'd accept: Inform your employer that you believe that their compensation is inadequate and that you'd like to restructure your compensation package. Give them a realistic goal that keeps you where you are, and makes you happy to turn down the offer from B. IF and ONLY IF they ask for it, tell them why you think you deserve additional compensation. ("Because someone else will pay me that!") Do not show them your offer letter. Do not precisely identify your competing offer. Describing the competitor in vivid but ambiguous terms makes your assertion easier to believe. Your manager will probably either say "I need some time to make this happen." or "Good luck." If the latter, give two weeks on the spot and go to company B. If the former, get a commitment to a TIMELY response. A timely response looks like "I will let you know by next Friday, October 4th, if we can do that." If they do not give you the TIMELY response, give two weeks on the spot and go to company B. If they do not reach your goal, go to company B. If you aren't ready to leave, you aren't ready to stand up for yourself.
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Oct 28, 2016 17:18
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In general I agree there's some overweighting of the fears around counteroffers, but it describes a very real risk. You can give an otherwise pleasing employer all the opportunities without the overt "disloyalty" by demanding salary correction without actually pulling out the competing offer to club them with. At the end of the day, if you are able to get a competing offer once, you are very likely able to get a competing offer again. Possessing a competing offer and asking for things knowing it is your BATNA is negotiating. Someone firing you for demanding a salary correction is punishing you for negotiating. Dik Hz has covered the entire convo about entities that punish you for negotiating. If you're really worried about it take your raise and sock it away into an emergency fund so that if you do get retributively fired you can draw from it while getting your next offer. Bitchkrieg posted:Jumping in to say you are such an asset to this thread. You helped me so much in leaving a toxic job a few months ago, and your advice and insight is consistently excellent.  Just trying to help other people sharing what I've learned. 
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Oct 31, 2016 14:52
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a fleshy snood posted:So I received the offer I posted about earlier that I was told would be low, and well, they weren't joking. Sounds like you read the initial situation well. Their next move will be to sell you on the job despite the lousy pay. Your preparation is two mental rehearsals. Before they respond to your desired salary, you rehearse walking. After they respond and try to bullshit you, you have one mantra: "gently caress you, pay me." You will probably end up either having to accept their offer or walk. Walking is hard the first time, but it gets easier the more you do it.
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Nov 3, 2016 14:39
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:So I was told to ask here: 4 They know your BATNA isn't good. They know they're dangling something slightly better in front of you. And they know that in <60 days you'll be unemployed, so you can't even stonewall them and come back later projecting confidence. They probably didn't know what your salary was without you telling them; even if there's a corporate chain of ownership that gets to your pleasant employer, there probably is not a pathway for the info to flow easily. You don't have great options. I would probably take the job and then immediately hunt for something that works for your current situation better.
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Nov 4, 2016 13:34
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Thirded. Walking on opportunities gets easier as you do it more.
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Nov 8, 2016 15:33
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You will be promoted when it is useful for your superiors to promote you, hope you enjoy living life on their schedule. shame on an IGA posted:I've just been transferred to a different department after doing my new position's responsibilities since the beginning of spring. This also prompted HR to notice they've been incorrectly paying me shift premium that entire time and hold it out my check resulting in an effective 70% pay cut until sometime in february. Should I even come back from lunch? Your BATNA for the new employers you should absolutely have already spoken to is still making something now vs. making nothing if you up and leave. Best time to find a job is when you already have one.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:42
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Bloody Cat Farm posted:They don't strike me as shady, especially given the type of job it is, so that's good news. Sounds like they should lay it all out for me. They should lay it all out for you, no sounds like about it. There's no police who go around and enforce all terms being disclosed prior to you agreeing to employment. You need to stick up for yourself in this regard: get the information necessary to make an informed decision before you make the decision. Do not agree to a job where they do not tell you about any and all benefits you ask about.
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Dec 12, 2016 19:09
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Corben Goble-Garbus posted:I am helping my girlfriend negotiate during her interviews and I have been rereading this thread for useful text in her emails. Came across this post with a link that has a lot of great info. It's cropped up a couple of times. I'll go ahead and add it now. Thanks for the poke!
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Dec 17, 2016 16:14
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Spoderman posted:I just interviewed recently and got an offer. During the interview, I mentioned a target (I know... I didn't start reading up on this stuff until after the interview...) and the offer I got is higher than my target. They know I'm between jobs right now, although I got another offer at the same time from another firm for slightly less. Even though I don't have much leverage, can I still ask for more? The job looks great, I just don't want to leave any money on the table. You can. It's tactically riskier than I'd like. You don't have a job right now, and your other offer is worse by the sounds of it. They offered you more than you asked for, which will mean their first question is "We were generous and offered you more than your target. Why should we bump up even more past that?" Seeing as your other offer is worse, any answer you offer comes down to "I want more money." You could take the high offer to the low offer to see if they'll bump up any. But I don't think trying to nudge up your high offer after they exceeded a goal you gave them is the right play for where you are right now.
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Dec 22, 2016 15:54
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tentawesome posted:I want to thank this thread for getting me a new job with better pay, better benefits, and more PTO. AWESOME! I don't know why particularly but I love this post; you did your reading, stood your ground, bet on yourself and came out ahead. Would it be okay with you to add your whole post to the OP as an example to others who come to the thread?
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Jan 1, 2017 15:30
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CarForumPoster posted:2 Months ago I posted about another program in my company trying to take me and my current program shutting it down. A few of you got on your high horse like I'm the goon in the well. Congratulations. You're the insufferable socially maladept engineer stereotype. For the cost of one day of PTO (oh, you can only take full days? I can take halves!), you do not have information about your value in the market. This information could show you that your 12% raise was pretty bad. This information could also have showed you that your 12% raise was pretty good. But you don't have the information, so you don't know. What you do know is that your employer who you feel blind loyalty toward told you that you went from paid below average to paid even more below average. The one tool that we tell people that they need for getting raises? Yeah, that's that piece of information that you chose not to go get. If you're happy where you are, then that's great for you. But you don't have any kind of useful advice for people interested in negotiating. your compensation compared to peers in similar roles went from ever so slightly bad to worse given you adopting more responsibilities, and as I said you'll be promoted when and how it is useful for your managers. You probably feel really smug right now given that you've secured some improvement. I am not satisfied that you've demonstrated "how you avoided a worse situation" by not going on an interview.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:59
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Auralsaurus Flex posted:I done goofed. It shouldn't hurt to ask, and if it does you might be dodging a bullet anyway. You don't have any leverage to speak of, so the way it probably works out is: You: "Please sir can I have some more?" Them: "More? No!" You: "Okay I'll take the job anyway  "Your communication is difficult to disambiguate: Did you list your wage for your internship? Did you list a salary range that was +/-8% of the median salary in your area? If you listed a range and they came in at the bottom of it they might be more open to negotiating. They may have multiple candidates, or the ability to leave the position unstaffed rather than hire a person who is both unproven and expensive. Why should they hire you? Why should they hire you at the median salary? You are an unproven quantity, why should they pay you more than the bottom of the barrel? I'm not posing these questions to tear you down, rather you should craft your communication to tackle these ideas. You can fall back on your internship experience, relevant coursework, recommendations from people at your internship if you can get them, etc. The two times that are most difficult to negotiate are when you are just starting out, and when you have no job. If you can put in a year of getting ripped off salary wise and doing good works, then you can start hunting for better opportunities with a proven track record, and at least the BATNA of continuing employment where you are. It's hard to hear that you gotta keep waiting to get into the game, but you're near the end, and at least you know to start playing. I spent the better part of 7 years wandering around cluelessly, and being undercompensated, before I pulled my head out of my rear end and started playing the game.
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Jan 17, 2017 16:45
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Saint Fu's given you good deflection strategies for not answering. In addition, it's important you do the thing we hammer on over and over and over again in this thread: Examine your BATNA. In this case, it's continuing to be unemployed with unemployment insurance paying out for one more week. Your BATNA is significantly bad. Usually the advice we give is pushing people to be more aggressive and confrontational, because usually people have a pretty decent position and just need to be nudged toward standing up for themselves. I think that in your situation it would be more prudent to be elusive than aggressive. This doesn't change what you should do dramatically in terms of opening plays. Still try to avoid naming a salary. Still try to focus on demonstrating your value as an employee. Still try to get them to provide an offer first. They also appear to have a bad BATNA. They're very responsive to you as a candidate, they're trying to move things along quickly, and they are clearly interested in hiring you. From here out you want to be stingy with what you disclose in terms of your position negotiating. Additionally, because your BATNA is poor, you need to remember that every time you raise a point of contention (e.g. salary), and then fold on it, you're providing your counterparty information. If you try to avoid naming a salary first and then fold, you're demonstrating that you don't have a great alternative. If you push and fold repeatedly, you're demonstrating to your counterparty that you have nothing and are just bluffing. Practically what this means is: 1) Choose your battles carefully, you want to go after low hanging fruit and set the bar at a place where you're likely to win for each negotiating point. 2) Keep in mind how many times you have to cave to their demands. If you get to three or more, you will likely be better off taking what they offer than pushing and folding. 3) Keep in mind how many times they cave to your demands too. NEVER revisit something you win on to try and juice it more, but if they're giving into your demands you can grow confident in making more of them. A lot of times all we need to tell people is to ask for more and stick up for themselves, but you've got more at stake and a more difficult position. You're doing research and making plans ahead of time which already puts you way ahead of the game. You can still make the best of this situation, and I'm confident given how seriously you're taking it that you will.
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Jan 24, 2017 15:30
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btw being a good, talented and effective programmer will earn far less than being a good, assertive and persuasive negotiator I've already made my opinion on CarForumPoster's "advice" clear, and made an addition to my ignore list
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Jan 29, 2017 03:37
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There's a few other dimensions you need to start analyzing when you get into managing teams. You don't have to negotiate over all of them, but you should contemplate them all. Off the top of my head: Headcount: This is not something you will likely be able to tweak during negotiations, but it can be a dimension you use prominently when arguing about other compensatory structures. For good or for ill having lots of reports will make it more likely that you can get lots of reports in the future, and often those kinds of positions are more lucrative. Contractual employment: This is something for you to consider, as employment opportunities can be thinner you may want to start setting up structures around your employment that cushion your landing if you get forced out. Equity: If you're not working at a publicly traded company you might need to agree to give the company Right of First Refusal (they get to buy at any price you would offer before anyone else does), as well as obtain your equity under contract that gives the company the ability to force you to sell. The latter is a double edged sword: it gives the company the ability to keep shares closely held and they can force you out. For you, it can give you a liquidity event prior to the company being acquired or publicly traded you might not otherwise get. As always Kalenn's spot on, particularly about playing the game with better opponents. If you really want to do well, you probably need resources other than what you'll find on a comedy internet forum. Which is not at all an attempt to discourage the discussion, just to set expectations about what we might be able to realistically get out of it.
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Jan 30, 2017 15:23
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Fun update, work has agreed to pay for my MBA without any further strings attached. Cool, you got this in writing yeah?
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Feb 3, 2017 16:13
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Macaroni Surprise posted:I'm trying to figure out how to best work this current situation. I'm not happy with my current employer who I have been with for almost four years. We have very few benefits and it is a hostile, poorly managed environment. Morale is low among the entire office. I recently got an advanced license that allows me to bill independently and supervise, and I put several applications in with other agencies about a week ago. However, I'm having difficulty finding really good positions until I get a second advanced license, which could take me some time to accomplish. It could take me anywhere from 4 months to a year to get that second license. Work on your reality, not on hypotheticals. The reality is that you are not positioned, with your current licenses, to get the really good positions. The reality is that the position you are being offered is an actual improvement to your current employment. The reality is that you have no other offers you are presently entertaining. The reality is that your company is managed poorly, and poorly managing a company has certain costs, among those costs is employee retention. The reality is that you do not get to choose how your company is managed. The reality is that the people who are potentially moving you into a supervisory role do get to choose how your company is managed. Take the position. Look at other opportunities. If you find an actual better one, take it and give your current employers advance notice (e.g. 4 weeks instead of 2) to replace you. You don't owe your employer any more loyalty than they have demonstrated toward you and your coworkers.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:17
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I'll do a little autobiographical run down as I just started a new job I accepted a little over a week ago. There was some negotiation involved, but I think it might be valuable as a demonstration of how I played a relatively poor hand. Last year I accepted a position making $15k more than I was previously, less travel, 30 days vacation / year, contributed HSA, fully covered health insurance, life insurance, dental, vision, 401k with match to 3%, and significant equity. I get to work remotely every day of the week for most of the year, with occasional travel to company HQ. This was my good play and I got a good hand. Over the year, the HSA stopped receiving contributions entirely, the health insurance was replaced with a less ideal plan, the vacation policy was waggled into a "disruptive" no set vacation policy, and some things didn't look great. I've been in my field for some time, so I started looking at other options, and saw that a former coworker's company was hiring. My pay is above the advertised salary range by ~%6, and I discussed this frankly. Finding a place with less drama and an upward as opposed to a downward benny trajectory at the same salary would have been a good move in my opinion. As I reiterate, know when you've won. He informed me that they'd just hired two people in a similar position to the one advertised and that they were not ready to add more on top of that, but that my name was at the top of the list. On February 7th, my old company, which was a technology startup, decided to change what it was going to work on and terminated my employment as part of a workforce reduction. My termination was not for cause. I received the remainder of the month in severance and had health insurance coverage to March. I pinged my friend again, and asked if there was anything I could do to help speed up the hiring process, as I was ready to start openly looking if not. That following Tuesday I was tech screened. Before the tech screen occurred they wanted to fly me to their headquarters for in person interviews based on initial phone interviewing. I flew up to interview in person following good performance in the tech screen. In person interviews went well, I was assertive about the salary I was seeking, openly. I was cagey about my present employment status. E.g.: "At <Old Company>, I <perform professional responsibility>." This is not volunteering that I'm presently unemployed, but is still talking about my professional experience and responsibilities. I do this all day, and at the end of the day I finally get called on it: "Are you presently employed at <Old Company>?" I acknowledge I'd been terminated, that it was not for cause, and that I can put them in contact with the CTO to confirm what I say. The total package is worse in some ways: instead of 30 days PTO and 6 holidays, they have 10 days PTO and 10 holidays. There's no 401k, or life insurance. The vacation policy really sticks in my craw and I hammer at it. I'm informed that they only use one vacation policy for all employees and that they'd prefer not to have to monkey with it to hire me. I counter offering to accept a pay cut from my prior rate in exchange for more vacation, along the lines of what I've gotten in the past. The counter-counter is that they will accept some amount of unpaid time off from me, which is roughly equivalent to a pay cut for more vacation. We come up with an approximate cap on how much I'll expect to do that in a given year. Salary wise the move is lateral, health insurance is pretty good, and they also offer dental and vision. Equity is, percentage wise, 50% more once fully diluted than my previous employer. We iron out this discussion in person, and the next day I am given a formal offer I accept. They check my references later. I still get to work remote, though they want more face time from me at their HQ. The position has more growth potential, and less drudge work. In terms of benefits it was a palpable downgrade, but still a significant improvement over being unemployed! All in all I was out of work for 20 calendar days, and technically am getting paid double today and tomorrow.  Overall I feel optimistic, but I embrace the limits of what I can know at this point.Given what I can know, I'm happy that: I was cognizant of useful information asymmetry and played it aggressively. I had clear important targets ( remote work, moral work, engineering consistent with my biases, pay rate, health insurance ) that were met. I had secondary targets that I evaluated in the context of both overall importance and my BATNA (being unemployed) I had sufficient savings to not be in a place of urgency. I had been doing research as soon as things seemed off so that I had a good idea of what other opportunities were out there and how this opportunity stacked up against other options on my primary targets. Maybe some folks will find some nuggets of usefulness in all of this.
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Feb 28, 2017 04:02
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air- posted:Looking for input on my situation: There's nothing wrong about using this offer as leverage. What you have to remember is that it is, ultimately, only worth as much as taking it vs some other offer. Seeing as it isn't better than your current employment, it is not very valuable to you. You can still use it as leverage though because of the information asymmetry between you and other prospective employers. This offer can help you demand timeliness, by virtue of needing to respond to it. It can validate your value as a candidate. And you can confidently demand material improvement over your current job, because they don't know the details of the offer. Of course, these asymmetries fall apart when you show them the offer. So don't do that!
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Mar 1, 2017 13:59
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Macaroni Surprise posted:I'm just thinking about my upcoming interview on Friday. When I'm asked about why I want to leave my current employer, should I say that it's for 401k match and health insurance benefits, which is true? Or is that too close to disclosing my salary. "I'm still evaluating if I will make a move. I want to see what other opportunities are available and how they compare to my present employment." Interviewers like to ask this question because it gets two categories of clueless people to show you who they are, namely: - Negative self-absorbed people will start to kvetch about how much their current job sucks. - Greedy myopic people will talk about how they can get compensated better at new job. Even though the very people interviewing you would almost certainly up and leave should better compensation come along, and it's entirely truthful and relevant to say that you're looking due to elements of their compensation package, it also shows them where to focus and reinforce their discussion in order to get you in the door. All that said, once you get to negotiating dimensions of employment it is relevant to talk about the elements of their compensation structure that entice you, especially when those elements have some degree of flex. At this point you want to show them how to make you happy but you shouldn't spend too much time focusing on any one particular thing.
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Mar 6, 2017 14:54
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Macaroni Surprise posted:I was reading up on this and listened to the podcast in the OP which talked about this subject. Where can I see some flexibility other than vacation time? I imagine insurance and 401k are set rates. There are some discounts with other companies and miscellaneous benefits like pet insurance and life insurance, but when it comes to negotiating compensation outside of pay, what can I even target other than pto? Good question! Things to probe as negotiable: - Salary - Hiring bonus - Annual bonus - PTO / year - Equity, if available - Health insurance coverage, for you (company pays your health insurance premium, between 0 and 100% of the premium) - Health insurance coverage, for dependents (company pays health insurance premium for your dependents, between 0 and 100% of premium) - Planned working from home time - Title (depends on your field and how much you think you can turn an important sounding title into better opportunities) - Life insurance coverage (how much premium the company pays) - Reimbursements (e.g. cell phone bill, regularly comped meals, conferences, continuing education, etc) This doesn't mean that every company will negotiate on these things, and it doesn't mean you should poke at all of them. But look at what, in this list, would motivate you to work some place and then pick a few to try and get a prospective employer to provide.
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Mar 8, 2017 14:48
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Grumpwagon posted:Thanks for the 1099 advice. You said contradictory things, though only one of them to your recruiter: You wouldn't be willing to accept a 10% pay cut, and you might be able to come to an agreement with their salary range that tops out under your current pay. You need to get a spine. Some things are not acceptable. Their salary range is one of them. You should flat out say so. Not flat out saying so is wasting your time, the recruiter's time, and the employer's time. So, for your first question, it wasn't an appropriate response; they ask the question because they want to see if compensation structures can line up, you have determined that they can't, but you weren't forthcoming about that fact. You are wasting a bunch of peoples' time. Second question, you have a narrow window to dig out of the hole you're in, if it's still open. You can tell this recruiter that the salary range isn't aligned with your compensation and they might work with you again. If you let things fester until it's offer time and then drop this info that you knew all along, then you're going to be very unwelcome in a whole bunch of places. The other option is to change your definition of acceptable to something that lines up with this opportunity. I don't particularly see why that would make sense without some other motivating factors. But this whole scenario looks like you avoiding conflict to me. If you can't talk openly and earnestly about this stuff, you can't negotiate. If you keep wasting peoples' time to avoid conflict, you'll start burning bridges with people who you waste the time of. They probably won't give you a heads up as to why you're no longer welcome. Reading over this response, its marginally unkind. But you need to hear a little hard truth right now.
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Mar 9, 2017 15:37
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Grumpwagon posted:Hard truth appreciated. I definitely do avoid conflict sometimes, and there was definitely a bit of that here. I think that will be useful information going forward. I think the salary range is one of the few facts worth accepting at face value out of a recruiter, which doesn't mean that the employer wouldn't move for the right candidate, but it is probably an uphill battle. It's important to remember that the recruiter is paid by the employer once the req is filled. The employer is paying to get the req filled quickly, and the recruiter makes the most money by filling the most reqs in the shortest amount of time. At no point in any of this financial fuckery are your interests represented. You're not paying anyone in anything, except for in being cheap and quickly slotted into a role for questionable fit. I don't personally work with recruiters anymore; they're more likely than not to be clueless about the nature of your work, and will not represent anything honestly that might jeopardize your interests. They're real estate agents for corporate hiring departments.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:44
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Fireside Nut posted:My question is such: this thread has taught me to really base your ask on your skills, experience, value added to the company, etc. In this case, is it wise or helpful to also add the increased salary requirements based on the increase in cost of living? In other words, it becomes a 'secondary' reason as to why you are asking for the number you are. I work remotely and have worked remotely in some regard since 2005, so this is what I do that works for me: If someone wants you to move to a higher COL area to work with them give them a choice between compensating you more for COL differences, or working with you to work remotely so the COL of where they choose to work doesn't affect you. In general you're absolutely right that you want to focus on what you can bring to the table and not on your own needs when negotiating. I think that COL is different because they are imposing costs on your life both in and outside of work by requiring you show up to a physical location on a day to day basis. Your compensation should reflect that imposition: if it's important they need to cover the cost, if it's not important then they need to work with you to avoid the cost.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:33
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Waroduce posted:Since than we have not had many direct follow ups. My immediate boss told me that the VP let her know that I may be moving from the Southeast to the Midwest. Other managers have also made comments to me that indicate they know or have congratulated me for the position but nothing official. I have also since the year began became sort of the travel guy for the implementation team. I have not traveled two weeks this year so far. Every other week I am out with clients getting them up and running and I am the only member of the team to travel this much. I also believe I have outperformed my salary despite my zero experience and the fact that I have been wit the company for only 8 months. I want to ask for a raise, a relocation package and some solid details on what being the guy in the Midwest will entail. Does anyone have any suggestions or further questions? Sounds like the role you're executing is also commonly referred to as a "Sales Engineer". People recognize your performance, and that is good. They likely also recognize that on paper you don't have an amazing looking history of doing your job well, which limits your mobility and means they get to engage in horsefuckery. Your odds of just up and jumping ship to another opportunity aren't awesome, so you have to remember not to overplay your hand. However at a broad outline what I'd try to do is the following: - Email VP of Implementation to schedule a follow up conversation. Ask for good times, and be ready to provide an agenda for the convo. - Agenda should hit on: 1. People are talking like this is a done deal. 2. You'd like more detailed info before uprooting to take over this midwest position. 3. Responsibilities seem expanded compared to present responsibilities. 4. In depth discussion of responsibilities of the new role. 5. In light of the costs of the move and the expanded responsibilities you're looking for compensation. 6. Relocation package. 7. Raise 8. Timely expectations for the relocation 9. Timely expectations for answers to above Timely means "March 23, 2017", not "soon". Have the meeting and discuss your agenda. Take notes during your meeting. After the meeting write the notes in email to VP and confirm everything in writing.
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Mar 13, 2017 15:21
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Macaroni Surprise posted:So my interview last week went very well and I just got an email back saying they are going to make me an offer and to expect a call from HR tomorrow to discuss the details. I'm excited about this opportunity. I figure I'll push for a better offer and benefits during that call. They'll likely want you to respond fairly quickly so that if you are responding in the negative they can move onto their next candidate quickly. It's totally acceptable to ask about what kind of response time they want, and, when provided an answer, to push back and get them to give you more time for decision making. And they get to determine if they like you enough to comply. However what you probably do not want to do is say that you have one and only one other opportunity, or give any information about that other opportunity. Instead you want to craft the language ambiguously: "I have other opportunities I need to finish evaluating, the earliest I can make a decision is Friday." Also, do not accept the offer and then back out. There's no legal repercussions, but you'll have burned a bridge with Agency 1, and anyone who discusses you with them in the future will also end up hearing a very unsympathetic narrative. You can slow down the current offer during negotiations with ambitious asks. They can't be so huge as to be unrealistic, but if the HR rep who calls you cannot approve the things you ask for themself, they'll have to run it up to higher pay grade people, which takes time, which slows down when you actually get your offer. Good luck and congratulations on your offer!
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Mar 14, 2017 14:38
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It has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with selection criteria, the new owners wanted to weed out everyone with a spine.
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Mar 28, 2017 16:30
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They said they'd get a 401k, and not only that they said they'd do it in a timely manner. Patrons of this thread might expect me to tell you to use this as a cudgel, but it's a goal they set they're 4 months late on delivering. You cannot shame them with it (they'd have held up their end of the deal by now if you could), and you cannot use it as leverage. In fact, by stiffing you on a piece of compensation, they have created leverage for themselves. They have tested, and then confirmed, the hypothesis that they can dick you over and you'll just accept it. If you REALLY like working there you can bring it up during review and say that this is a dimension of compensation that you were promised and they didn't deliver on, so you'd like a bigger raise, please. I was in a similar situation: I had busted my rear end and earned a raise, but the company had unilaterally imposed a blanket 6 month delay on all raises without any compensating equity, or interest, or other equitable measure. I got up and left over it, no counteroffer opportunities, no bargaining. Someone who rips you off once will rip you off again if you let them. These people agreed to provide you a 401k and then did not honor their agreement. I would find other employment and tell them exactly why you're leaving when you do.
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Apr 4, 2017 16:46
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Goodpancakes posted:I interviewed for a job which they told me I got. Gonna hire me I guess. Had to fill out another application so they could do background checks. I left my salary history blank. Now the HR person sent me a email this morning asking for salary history. What's the good response here Did they tell you what they're going to hire you at already?
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Apr 6, 2017 18:40
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Alternatively you can tell them that you'll supply salary history information after they commit to a defined compensation package they will be including in their offer.
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Apr 6, 2017 20:16
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Purple Prince posted:Wondering about what sort of range would be sensible to look at for my next job. You are counting your chickens before they've hatched. Bok bok! Your BATNA is unemployment, and your BATNA will continue to be unemployment until you actually find a job offer that is better than your current employment. Moreover, your attitude swings wildly from you are irreplaceable, to "assuming your contract is renewed". If you work for someone who chronically underpays the industry for the role you perform, and they presently underpay you, then you should reasonably assume they will try to underpay you if they bring you on full time. Which means you need leverage, which means you need to start talking to other employers. This is work. You need to go on interviews with these other employers. This is also work. You need to do such a good job presenting yourself interviewing that you get offers. This is also work. You need to get offers that are better than the £32-35k range. More work. You've got some work ahead of you, if you want to negotiate with your current employer. Get working!
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Apr 12, 2017 21:07
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:God I could just read your posts all day Dear BFC i would like to make posting my full time job please sponsor my patreon my BATNA is well compensated corporate wage slavery and your BATNA is not getting to read my posts oh god what have i done i lost the negotiating game already
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Apr 13, 2017 13:39
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:... 1. Present your case rationally and with this implication but without a promise. Describe that the market price for your skill set is X, and that you'd like a raise to X to correct to the market. 2. Not unless you're ready to find other work. Which you should do anyway, because it's empirical data about your market value. Go interviewing! Just bringing this up can draw attention to the organizational risk that you are not literally replaceable with someone else on staff. 3. They deferred a raise, you did not. They changed the terms without communicating the change. You understood your compensation to be "X, with review in 6 months" when you agreed to the position. They understood your compensation to be "Y+Z, that we really resent you negotiating Z out of us for, so no review after 6 months!" but did not communicate as much. They are dicks. You would be well served to express your dissatisfaction with their actions during your review, particularly if you can get up and leave should they not correct to more satisfactory actions. A few other thoughts: You are probably not actually irreplaceable, very few of us are. The company was able to profitably operate before you came along and raised the game. They can probably still operate profitably even if they do not replicate your skillset. However if you can quantify how much having you around is worth, even in ballpark terms, that can be a big help to getting offers elsewhere. I don't harp on getting other offers because I think people should switch jobs frequently. I've had 4 different employers in the last decade, which is not a small amount, but isn't quite annually swapping either. It's just that having that offer in hand is the only real, legitimate leverage you have for demanding things and enforcing a consequence if your demands are not met. JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Thank you for reading all those words, here are cute dogs: D'aww 
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Apr 13, 2017 18:13
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Thanks for the response! My team is small and I get to look behind the administrative curtain a fair bit. Currently, the company charges clients 4.25x of my wage for 1 hour of my labor. And it should increase even more in the very near future. My boss is the person who communicated this information to me. Every body shop does this; I spent 2010-2016 consulting & receiving a salary roughly ~1/3rd the hourly rate I was billed out at. That does account for vacation time, but doesn't account for bennies. Try not to think too much about your billed rate until you got a nice e-fund saved up and you're ready to start billing it out yourself. And pay for insurance. And do sales calls. And... maybe not collecting 100% of your billed rate is worth it to you. 
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Apr 13, 2017 18:52
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22 Eargesplitten posted:I'm being trained in reporting at this job (contract to hire), are there any counter arguments to the predictable "we're training you, so you won't get paid as much as someone who already knew how to do this" point? I can't think of any that don't sound like "if you underpay me I'll just get a year under my belt and jump ship for another $20-30k." How would there be? Do you threaten them with not getting underpaid AND not getting trained and go get the position that you are not entirely qualified for somewhere else? (That will also underpay you because they will be training you...) You are not ideally valuable at the task you are doing for employment right now, so they are training you and getting a discount because you are not an ideal fit. Training you costs them time in someone training you, plus the opportunity of hiring someone who can already do the job. They probably can't find that person, so they're training you up. They also save some money on payroll in exchange for incurring these costs. What exactly are you expecting here?
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May 11, 2017 13:59
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 04:16 |
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Yeah, I figure that's not unlikely. I would kind of like to stay here for a few years, but then again things can change very quickly at a company. What is coming across in what you're writing, as I read it, is that you want to put the cart before the horse. If, and when, you are skilled in the use of the system your company uses, then you are valuable. While you are being trained, you are less valuable. What it sounds like is that you want to be compensated like an expert, while you are still skilling up to become an expert. If you think that's a fair characterization, then tough luck, because you are worth what someone is willing to pay you, and without some savvy and duplicitous marketing on your part, employers probably will not want to compensate you like an expert while you are less capable than an expert. That doesn't mean you get underpaid forever, it means you get to expert level skill, then you demand to have your compensation revisited. Then, you find other people looking for your expert skillset and see what they'll pay you. Then, you play your current employer off other people. Maybe you give your current employer a discount because you like them, but you need the leverage, and for the leverage, you need the skills. You might be super smart, and you probably know a lot about the tool you're using right now. But noone's going to treat you like an expert when you have 4 months experience using it, and noone's going to compensate you like an expert when you have 4 months experience.
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May 11, 2017 21:58
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