The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR? - The Something Awful Forums

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Vegetable posted:

I had a funny negotiation recently: Got an offer from a company that was much lower than expected. Told them I had another offer that was 23% higher. Recruiter took a day to talk to compensation team, called me, said they could do literally nothing. Couldn't move even a dollar.

Over the call, she said she could try pinging a message to another person but that it was very unlikely anything could happen. I told her to give it a shot. Two days later, she bumps the offer up by 14%.

So it was still lower than the competition, but it was confusing to have the initial counter-offer be exactly the same. I guess they figured that they couldn't match the competition and that I wouldn't take any counter-offer anyway.

Which is true -- ended up turning them down. Just sharing!

The first counter-offer being the same was testing if you actually had another offer. If you didn't then your bluff has been called.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2021 18:25

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 09:58

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

If your offer changed after the fact then you don't have an offer, you have an open negotiation.

Also that sounds like a poo poo place to work.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2021 04:36

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

No offer yet but adding myself to the list of people who learned not to say a number first from this thread. Company HR person seemed to realise that my skills were well over what they were actually expecting from applicants mid-call and stressed that the number she quoted was the baseline and it goes up if they like you. TY thread for repeating this One Simple Trick to stack more paper.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2021 11:50

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

priznat posted:

I'm still a bit flabbergasted though, like they wanted someone with some really deep experience that someone with 5 years in the industry would simply not have.

This is every IT posting in the world TBH.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2021 23:35

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

There's also the implied disconnect between "the market for the job you want done" and "the market for my skills".

IE: telling them they're trying to hire idiots.

# ¿ Nov 11, 2021 20:30

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

the thread advice isn't never say a number EVER, it's never lead with a number before the other side has given a number, which you have already received from them. you can say whatever number you want.

Just yesterday in a first round interview that I knew the posted range for I was asked what I thought of the UK jobs market, and I said that I didn't really have a handle on it yet, but I saw some jobs that were looking for someone to do every security function at once for �25k a year and that wasn't happening. When it came to asking about salary the guy said "so you've told me the number you're not getting out of bed for" and was happy with me saying "I've seen your posted range and I'm we can work something out". I feel like this was successful as an opening tester, he knows there's a point I'll just walk, and I know his desired range is one I'm happy with.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2021 23:49

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Democratic Pirate posted:

Sounds like the new number is $110k

I was just gonna post "Name a higher number" too.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 20:39

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

leper khan posted:

I'm not sure if I should point out how easy it is to buy a PhD in some countries...

I recently caused an issue for my M.Sc. when I noticed that the head of my course had a different Ph.D. title on the college's staff page and LinkedIn. Big enough difference that they were in different fields entirely. Their grasp of the subject matter was "has not heard of cipher suites" which seems like the kind of thing a person teaching cybersecurity should know to me.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2021 02:40

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

"Hey given that <list of changes> is different from <what you agreed> I regretfully must retract my acceptance of this offer."
If you want to be extra nice phrase it as you doing them a favour by avoiding the complications of all that illegality which you totally can't budge on for reasons.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2021 07:40

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Lockback posted:

While you don't need to do anything, if you're rejecting an accepted offer I would say some kind of context is professional. You are torching a bridge when you say "just kidding" and a bit of salvage can go a long way in a world that can be quite small.

That's my read on it. Maybe they'll learn, try again, and offer lots of extra cash to smooth things over. Or maybe yyou just get tye satisfaction of watching them beg as you walk away knowing they really wanted you. Whatever :shrug:

:shrug:

# ¿ Nov 18, 2021 15:54

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Eric the Mauve posted:

If the company really values you, they'll proactively seek your development (because they believe it will benefit them).

I was going to take issue with this and say "this assumes that the company understands it's own activities that well" but then I realised the solution to that is the thread favourite "get a different job" so... Yeah.

Well done thread, got all the bases covered :golfclap:

:golfclap:

# ¿ Nov 23, 2021 02:45

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

I suspect I am going to keep looking and bail on this offer. Advertised at X-Y, with "up to 2X!" DOE, and I have been told they're very impressed and wish to offer me X-25%. This would be equivalent to going back in time three years and dropping one professional cert and a Master's Degree from my CV, so...

I guess the UK pays poo poo wages? Start date is ages away, so if I accept this I will keep looking and just bail if better arrives. BATNA is unemployment, but my wife is lolpaid and we were saving for a house in Dublin before having to move to London for her career so that's fine for a few months TBH.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2021 16:01

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Walking away is still an option. I was expecting the lower end of things because I lack industry certs that the UK likes, but you can't get them unless you work for a company registered to sit the tests, and those are rather rare in Ireland where I have just moved from. They seem to have calculated training costs in while I'm pretty sure I just need the company address to give and I'd be happy to pay for the exams myself and take them tomorrow.

Moving country is complicated, do not recommend. Brexit bad.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2021 17:48

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Wibla posted:

Not sure why you would voluntarily move to the UK. Especially not post-brexit.

There ain't much call for space engineers in Ireland right now, so my wife's options are limited.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2021 19:51

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Following up, I pushed back with a counter, they countered with better increments, I came down a couple K, and I'm just below the advertised range ending up smack in the middle of it as long as I pass two exams within six months.

I'm paid more than I have been before, and it's thanks to this thread giving me the tools to advocate for myself. Thanks thread!

Arquinsiel fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Nov 30, 2021

# ¿ Nov 30, 2021 14:49

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Yeah, you want to aim higher than she asked so when your boss says "no, only +25%" you can go back to her and be all "good news!". If your boss had given a bigger number then you look like a loving hero for getting her more.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 15:13

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Arquinsiel posted:

you look like a loving hero for getting her more.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2021 02:21

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

It's blatantly him trying to blame everyone else for not appreciating nepotism.

Kind of wonder if asking him if he thinks maybe his lovely decidion here was guided by him getting handed the company in similarly unqualified circumstances would result in an entertaining response.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2021 19:59

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Sounds like you should start at 250 so.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2022 03:36

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

aperfectcirclefan posted:

Jesus how smart are you guys that's alot of money.

Here I am fending for 50k jobs lol

Field and location. I'm in the same boat as you but if I moved across to the USA I'd be hard pressed to find anyone offering less thsn triple what I'm on.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2022 18:35

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

If those are the buying prices then you know why the Irish housing market is so hosed.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2022 21:38

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:

From the little I�ve seen, it�s nearly everywhere, especially metro areas (Europe, North America).

Both of my parents retired at less than �45k. It's wild to realise that getting good money in London was harder than in Dublin because London is cheaper :negative:

:negative:

Also Irish people just never negotiate. We're culturally pressured to be downright worshipful for whatever scraps we're given.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2022 11:32

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Now consider that Ireland is training nurses just for them to move to the UK, but housing is more expensive.

Now also consider that almost two out of every three elected officials in Ireland is a landlord and it all becomes clear.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2022 12:24

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Eric the Mauve posted:

"Fair enough, what's the salary range you're offering then?"

If they won't take the hint after the third or fourth time round the dance floor, "no, and gently caress off" is fine honestly

Alternatively "I'm sure you are willing to offer a fair market rate" and then just sit silently.

Also never under-estimate the effectiveness just sitting there staring at the camera and taking an occasional sip of tea or whatever, because they're happy to do that to you and get weirded out when you do it back.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2022 21:12

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Dobbs_Head posted:

Man I hate the credit bureaus. I literally never want to do business with them. But I can�t escape them.

One of the fun things about applying for a UK bank account was getting turned down because of my Equifax credit report, and not being able to access that report because I can't prove to Equifax that I exist. It's a pretty funny mess they've gotten themselves into by not being legally allowed access my data due to the EU frowning on the kind of poo poo they pull.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2022 21:23

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Heck, the goal is "a number starting with 2" so unless you want the comedy option of "fine I'll do it for 20k" just counter with exactly 200k, 3000 options, and no bonus. Let them argue you down on the options because we all know they're worth 0.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2022 00:07

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

yeah like the most important piece is that YOU are happy with what you have done and the move you are making

sometimes that gets lost in discussions of Objective Value

I posted earlier about negotiating hard because the UK tech rates aren't great compared to Irish rates, but I was taking a chance on the company because my BATNA was poor and I liked the vibe of the bosses.

Today we got told that we're all getting a COLA to account for the rising UK taxes in April and it won't affect any other agreed performance or certification increases anyone (*cough* me *cough*) might have. Good vibes sometimes have a favourable pricetag.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2022 19:58

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

air- posted:

Gotcha thanks for the tips. I'll go with a password protected zip! Still stuck out to me since the HR persons emails has all kinds of all caps red text about being cautious of external senders, attachments etc lmao

Make sure to text them the password or something.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2022 00:44

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

I'd say work out how many days you actually take off, add one or two for feelsies, and ask if they can come up to that. I did that last time, got told no, but was then informed that the company's working practices are extremely flexible and I can pretty much set my own schedule and don't need to use PTO for doctor's appointments or cert exams etc. To echo what everyone has said here already, just asking gets you information about the company.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2022 15:40

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Zarin posted:

I don't have a horse in this race, but I don't think "I have multiple competitive offers" is a lie in the slightest.

All those offers are competing for you. Ergo, they are competitive. With each other. The fact that they suck and you're gonna dumpster them is irrelevant

Edit: Hell, technically your current job is a "competitive offer". They keep offering you money, and you keep showing up. You're looking for someone to beat them, but until they do, they're the best offer in town~

0 is a multiple of any number, as long as you multiply it by 0.

Spikes32 posted:

My take is boss knows how competitive the job market is, knows his group is underpaid compared to the bay area market and was given the go ahead by his vp to try and retain people by upping salaries, and is using the 'its an EU practice I'm bringing over' as a cover to mask his actual worry / intention and not lose bargening power.

You are correct. "An EU practice" is pretty transparent bullshit TBH. There's nowhere near that degree of cultural commonality.

Spikes32 posted:

He's got a science BS, but humanities PhD so feels like his Banta sucks, plus really likes his job. And he 'doesn't want his boss to think he's going to leave'.

He does want his boss to think that, and also any Ph.D. tells employers that you can literally push the boundaries of human knowledge when you want to. Does his boss want him to go and really like his job somewhere else, for more money? No, his boss does not want this.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2022 19:41

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Zarin posted:

Hahaha, I legit cannot tell if you are
- agreeing with me
- disagreeing with me
- calling me an idiot
- some combination of the above

and I am extremely amused, so thank you for that

I am curious what you mean though! If I said something dumb/gave bad advice, I should probably know about it.

I'm giving an extremely niche but technically correct way of claiming you've got "multiple competing offers" even if you're unemployed. It's not a lie, but it's easy to misinterpret if an employer were to hear it. Agreeing with you ad-absurdum, if you like.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2022 21:19

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Your BATNA is "I'll stay where I am and get paid more, thanks" so like... remember that.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 18:51

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

bamhand posted:

The issue with this is future income. There's not much room to grow as IC.

You're only saying that to them, you can always go somewhere else. They might come back with more anyway. That is why you being able to do nothing and coming out with more than they offer is a good position.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 19:12

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

bamhand posted:

e: Anyways I'm basically just griping about the company having a lovely system that turns a "promotion" into something that actually makes me consider leaving. I know the solution is to simply wait the requisite amount of time in the new role and then find a new job if I'm unhappy.

Gripe away. You're right to be mad about that.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 19:31

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

spatula posted:

I certainly don't look like a senior engineer in appearance or demeanor or name, but there's not a whole lot I can do there so I just do my best to forget about that aspect of things.

If you are a senior engineer then that's what a senior engineer looks like in all respects. If the company you are applying to disagrees then that's their problem and also your ask went up.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 10:52

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

The idea of not having a statutory entitlement to paid leave is just :psyduck:

:psyduck:

to me. How do you put up with it?

# ¿ Feb 25, 2022 23:09

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Okay but... it's statutory. Managers get it too everywhere I've worked.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2022 23:32

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

leper khan posted:

Sure. But I'd like to keep my title when I leave this place. You asked how I put up with it.

Statutory means "everyone gets it in every job in every company, by law", either I'm really not getting how you keeping your title matters unless you're planning to move jurisdictions?

# ¿ Feb 26, 2022 21:15

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Sorry my goon, you're a Solutions Engineer.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2022 00:18

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 09:58

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Just to really emphasise how good this thread is, this just landed in my inbox today. Some of it is just plain terrible advice.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2022 18:51

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

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