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Sucrose posted:English changes. That doesn't mean you can insist that other people use changes to it that you yourself made up on the spot. How, exactly, do you think language changes?
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Mar 23, 2016 14:35
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Sucrose posted:It doesn't change by making up a new grammar rule yourself and then insisting other people use it. Are you sure? Because making a new rule and insisting people use it until people start using it sounds exactly like how language changes.
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Mar 23, 2016 14:54
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Frosted Flake posted:If you think humanity is about to enter a golden age where we call people "xir/xe" and abandon 10 000 years of gender and sexuality I don't know what to tell you. This is exactly one of the arguments made against gay marriage. Curiously it didn't work then, let's see if it works this time. Frosted Flake posted:Why? What, exactly, will you lose by respecting someone's wishes? Will Traditional-Gender Police murder your entire family? Will a meteor fall on your dog? Are "xe", "zir" and/or "ve" the words to the incantation that will break the seals keeping Mardulak the Warlock trapped below the earth? Were your parents murdered by Joe Genderqueer, and you swore to avenge their deaths? You are weirdly invested in absolutely, positively, under no circumstances ever having respect for someone with a non-traditional gender identity, and I'm just curious why that is.
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Mar 23, 2016 18:35
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Frosted Flake posted:People can think of themselves what they want, I'll meet them halfway out of politeness but beyond that I don't see a reason to indulge them. Why not? You're already "violating 10,000 years of sexuality and gender" by not assigning them a gender (which for some reason is... bad?), so what makes slightly changing one singular syllable such an onerous burden?
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Mar 23, 2016 18:40
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Frosted Flake posted:No, see it's 2016! They're on The Right Side of History. Somehow this generation is the one that will overturn some of the most engrained aspects of human society, by sheer force of will. "Everything hasn't instantly changed, better fight tooth and nail to stop any change from possibly happening." Yes, that's a position that makes perfect sense all right. 
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Mar 23, 2016 18:48
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Also, if Good question, Commie NedFlanders. I, too, think we should be slavishly beholden to the past. Nothing must ever change. Nothing.
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Mar 23, 2016 18:53
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Frosted Flake posted:Exactly. If you think that gender roles are irrelevant, you don't need extra pronouns. And if that person doesn't want to be called a man, what then? What if that person doesn't want to be called a woman, either, or "they" because that person had an abusive parent who called their child "they" while trying to beat the queer out of said child? Why are you unwilling to show even the most basic amount of human decency to that person?
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Mar 23, 2016 18:57
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the trump tutelage posted:It's funny you refer to "xe", "zir" and/or "ve" as words of an incantation because what those pronouns mean - and especially because you cannot anticipate when they are used - is that someone gets to unilaterally decide how they are categorized, at their leisure, and it is hateful or discriminatory not to indulge them. They really are supposed to be like magic words in that respect. So you think that basic decency to another human being = actual magic. Well that certainly explains a lot about your position. quote:I think what most people are recoiling against with regards to new or personalized pronouns specifically is the raw egotism of expecting someone to simply subordinate themselves to your idiosyncrasies before interaction even takes place. No one here has argued that you should somehow have pre-knowledge of someone's preferred gender prior to interacting with them. What people are saying is that if someone asks you "Hey, it would mean a lot to me if you referred to me as '[pronoun]'" you not devolve into a pants-making GBS threads ape-creature screaming about how that request is literally impossible to follow through on. So far people have expended far, far more energy getting worked up over hypothetical interactions that haven't even happened to them personally than they would, on the off chance they actually are asked, just saying "yeah, sure thing".
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Mar 23, 2016 19:03
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Here's the thing, in my personal life, I would still play along and call someone what they preferred to be called, even if I thought it was stupid as hell. I would play into their silly language game to make them comfortable because that's a kind thing to do for someone else. Then why are you so worked up? quote:Why can't they see that such considerations work both ways and stop being so demanding or condescending to other people ho have different views? "  Why won't people tolerate my intolerance?!"
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Mar 23, 2016 19:09
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Commie NedFlanders posted:When you ask me to call a transperson a "woman", that has meaning, it means something and part of that meaning is that this person has lived their life being treated as not a male, as a female, and the culmination of her life experiences has shaped her subjective position into something that I can call "woman". When you insist that I call someone a woman who didn't have those experiences, it changes the meaning of the word. This is exactly the argument used against transpeople about why they shouldn't be allowed to transition or ever call themselves by anything except their birth sex. "That's not a 'transwoman', that's a man. Born a man, raised a man, lived as a man, and will always be a man, no matter what his sick brain tells him, and calling that man a woman is an insult to women everywhere." So is that your position now? That gender is completely immutable? That after a certain age you're locked in forever?
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Mar 23, 2016 19:34
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The Kingfish posted:A couple years ago this thread would have accused someone talking about xe/xer pronouns of concern trolling because they are obviously ridiculous. Are you often confused by the linear passage of time?
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Mar 23, 2016 19:57
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Frosted Flake posted:A lot of people want a lot of things. Some things just aren't possible, other things are worth a pat on the head, a few aren't worth everybody else indulging. Why are you terrified of calling someone something other than "he", "she", or "they"? Do you often break into a cold sweat if you encounter an unfamiliar word? Why do you think it is literally impossible to call someone by a different pronoun?
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Mar 23, 2016 20:13
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't think it's basic decency. Basic decency is not expecting people to accommodate your special snowflakeisms. Is it basic human decency to accommodate your goth friend when they insist their name is now Raven? Yes. I know that having friends is probably completely alien to you, but generally if your friend asks you to do something trivial you do it out of respect for them. The Kingfish posted:E: homos can obviously call themselves whatever they want, as long as they don't expect to be taken seriously in an interview/application/classroom/anywhere outside of their hugbox. Hmmm, yes. Frosted Flake posted:I assure you it does. "They" is a pat on the head, anything else isn't going to happen. Why not? Answer the question, coward.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:54
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Frosted Flake posted:In that some believe society should bend to the individual, and some believe the individual should bend to society. That seems to be a bit over the top, perhaps you should call it something like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
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Mar 23, 2016 20:57
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Frosted Flake posted:As the person siding with status quo, I'd say the burden of proof is on those challenging it. "Because they feel X in their head" and "nothing means anything anyways" aren't very compelling arguments. Because it's trivially easy and a show of basic respect between two individuals. Now explain why you should be allowed to be an rear end in a top hat for absolutely no good reason without being called out on it. quote:On an anecdotal level, people with 'unconventional' identities tend to be mercurial to say the least. Changing names, identities, sexualities again and again. Maybe they're trying to fill a void. In any case, to me stability and purpose have meaning. If wearing a binder makes you feel whole one day but three months later you need a packer, then a name change, then to be called different pronouns it seems like your chasing something that being called "xe" won't fix. I don't really care about your stdh.txt. But that aside, you really need to stop coopting anti-gay rhetoric to make your arguments. It doesn't make you look good. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 21:09
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Frosted Flake posted:Well, I didn't make it up for one thing, although it is an anecdote. Yes, I'm sure you've seen all sorts of memes and tumblr posts about it. quote:Beyond that, respect is earned and I don't have to buy into someone else's conceptions of society just because it hurts their feelings to disagree. Woah there, Mr. Just-Entered-High-School, do your parents know you stole their credit card to register an account here? Ok, junior, if not out of respect then out of common decency. Edit: Supposed burden of proof or no, I want you to explain how you, personally, are negatively affected by calling someone by a non-standard pronoun. How does it harm you? Who What Now fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 21:26
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The Kingfish posted:Plus it's annoying and hard to remember. Also it's made up and it's stupid. So you think queers are icky. And?
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Mar 23, 2016 21:45
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The Kingfish posted:That is the second time you've ignored content of my post. This sort of targeted intellectual ostracization is highly othering. What did I ignore? You said: quote:Performing gender is a two-way street. Or, pared down, (gender)queer people make you feel uncomfortable (because you don't know how to act like a big tough manly-man or something?). But the best way to not be made to feel uncomfortable is to gain an understanding, and the best way to gain an understanding is to interact with someone respectfully. So your argument doesn't really work, see? Edit: Frosted Flake posted:I actually know these people, unfortunately. I didn't think people like this existed until I had to interact with them. Surely your own identity isn't so fragile you can't bear to use a non-standard pronoun? And, again, it isn't about your approval, it's about testing other adults with a bare minimum amount of consideration. Using a certain pronoun costs you absolutely nothing, and you know it because you're completely unable to give me a single solitary reason why you can't do it, so you clumsily try to change the subject every time. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 21:56
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Frosted Flake posted:If it's all the same, seeing as it doesn't cost me anything I'd still rather not. Then you're an rear end in a top hat. Now the question is why you felt the need to make a bunch of posts arguing that it's cool and good to be an rear end in a top hat for no reason.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:10
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Frosted Flake posted:People wish "Merry Christmas" as a way of expressing their internal religious beliefs. I don't share the belief so I opt out of participating. People have their own invented identity, as is their right but I can choose not to indulge them as I don't share their belief. God is as real to the faithful as Genderfluidity is to it's adherents. You seem to think that you have to actually believe in the legitimacy of non-standard pronouns and want to use them yourself in order to speak them aloud. I promise you that using "xe" will not make you genderqueer. So with that fear no longer gripping your heart of hearts, do you have any reason not to do it other than "I want to actively make other people's days worse just because"?
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Mar 23, 2016 22:29
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Frosted Flake posted:It's more of a thorough shellacking of civility than just a veneer. It must be hard being a snowflake in a world that doesn't bend to your whim, but I'm not out to harm anyone. I'm respectfully and courteously treating them as kindly as I can without indulging in their beliefs. You're not, though. Being a "respectful" prick isn't actually respectful or courteous. This is just "Hate the sin, love the sinner" garbage. If this were 50 years ago you'd be talking about how you refuse to call an interracial "husband and wife", oh but that you aren't out to harm anyone. You'd talk about how you'd say they were "together" and ask why that wasn't good enough. You'd be sharing anecdotes about how people who are attracted to different races are just so gosh darn mercurial. Word for word, note for note, it's the same arguments then and now. You literally pointed to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in all but name as a way society does and more grossly should work. Somehow you've yet to realize how lovely this makes you look. Edit: quote:E: I get it it's hard being trans/genderqueer whatever. Oh, gently caress you.
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Mar 23, 2016 22:55
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Frosted Flake posted:They're not changing their minds, I'm a little more open with mine. So open you refuse to acknowledge what they say as legitimate in any way, shape, or form. So open minded you instantly dismiss them and what they say as worthless without a single second of thought or consideration for their position or arguments. Yeah, you're the poster child for open mindedness all right what with denying the opposition from the outset and all.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:12
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blowfish posted:This is a perfectly reasonable response. Making other people invest Saying a word takes no effort, and no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to say it. Soooo... ok?
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Mar 23, 2016 23:22
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in your own dumb poo poo does, in fact, make you the bigger rear end in a top hat.
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blowfish posted:Murdered pedestrians and mildly hurt feelings: literally the same thing. You seem to think your hurt feelings over saying a word you aren't quite used to sure is.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:22
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:You say that you don't question their identity, but all you've been doing in this thread is questioning nonbinary identities and sometimes mocking binary trans identities. You've called nonbinary identities, something that has existed in culture since the dawn of humanity, something for "special snowflakes," you've had nothing but a derogatory and negative tone in reference to the concept of people being nonbinary, and have created multiple strawmen of fake, ridiculous pronouns just so you could knock them down as some slippery slope where will it end?! argument. Well, I'd say that no, he doesn't question their gender identity. In that he has already made up his mind and is not in any way interested in asking questions or learning about it.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:33
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Frosted Flake posted:Trans people are what 0.05% of the population? 'Non-binary' people less than that? Short of sharing classes, attending LGBT events, or being introduced through mutual friends, I will never encounter a person like that in more than passing. I don't worry about the gender of my barista or barber, I make smalltalk, tip and go about my day. We get it, you don't care about the lives of people who aren't you, especially not those of the LGBT communitty. You don't need to keep coming in here telling us how much you think the queer community are just a bunch of mentally addled weirdos. Message received loud and clear, brosef.
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Mar 23, 2016 23:48
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double post somehow
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Mar 23, 2016 23:48
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blowfish posted:No I don't give a poo poo about whether you (used to) have a penis but see yourself as a woman or vice versa, you shouldn't view everything through the lens of your victim complex (which may be the underlying issue here You very, very obviously do. Specifically you care that people must be either a man or a women, no exceptions. blowfish posted:nice strawman You don't actually know what a strawman is, do you?
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Mar 23, 2016 23:52
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blowfish posted:Because I didn't list things that would go under "something else" I must obviously desire to oppress the poo poo out of people I didn't list. Golly, why would anyone think you'd want to do that what with you're whole "  special snowflake victim mentality special snowflake victim mentality Special Snowflake VICTIM loving MENTALITY AAAAAAAAAAAAA" schtick and all.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:02
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Effectronica posted:Even with the minimalist figures, there are still five times as many trans people as jewelers, and yet we have a huge vocabulary around jewelry which derives from jewelworking jargon. Basically, it's important to remember that specific numbers are very often a platform with which to posture about how unimportant the people you loathe are. Right, it doesn't actually matter how many trans* or genderqueer people there are, that's not an excuse to be a pig-headed rear end to people. It could literally be just one person named and the right thing to do would still be to call that person whatever they ask you to because there is absolutely no reason not to. But apparently to people like Frosted Flake and blowfish it's totally cool to be a douchebag so long as you're doing it to a small enough group of people and don't scream slurs in their faces when you do it.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:16
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Commie NedFlanders posted:If you don't identify as an rear end in a top hat and prefer to be called The Greatness Jesus would be so proud of you.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:47
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Sucrose posted:I repeat that I will call a person the gender that they identify as (him, her, them) but I will not change the English system of grammar when speaking just to accomodate them, No one is asking you to do this, you obtuse gently caress.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:09
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Sucrose posted:Good, so you've given up on defending that "xir/zor/bunself" garbage and how I'd be an rear end in a top hat for refusing to play along with it? Oh absolutely not, it's just that using those pronouns won't irreparably destroy all English grammar forever. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that if you use a non-standard word the entire language will somehow disappear forever. But this isn't the case, and yet you continue to act as if it is. Now that we've cleared that up, give me a valid reason why you won't do it.
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Mar 24, 2016 01:45
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Frosted Flake posted:I'm happy to be tolerant, No, you aren't. You in fact have done absolutely nothing except bitch incessantly about how loving awful it is that you need to be tolerant. For pages and pages you've only complained about the burden that poor you has been put under by having to maybe use a slightly different single syllable in a conversation (not that it's actually happened, but hooooooooo-ly poo poo are you upset at the potential that it might maybe happen someday). So no, you aren't actually tolerant, you're just barely aware enough to know you can't say how you actually feel without being called out. quote:It seems like it sucks to be trans and not have your self-constructed identity align with society. 
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Mar 24, 2016 01:54
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Frosted Flake posted:That's okay, I have broad shoulders. I'll just go on quietly living my life. Would you kindly? Because your constant whining about how horrible your life is because you're aware trans people exist is pretty awful, I gotta say.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:07
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Frosted Flake posted:Using a common English word versus a made up word is not bigotry. I respectfully disagree with a certain conception of gender, privately. Ultimately people can do whatever they want and I don't want to get in the way. What I think has no bearing on their lives, and as long as I'm polite and tolerant it won't. You arent polite and tolerant, though, that's what we keep telling you. The polite and tolerant thing to do would be to say, "Oh, yeah, it's no problem to call you [pronoun]" and not "Well how about I meet you halfway and call you a 'they'? Oh, you'd really I rather not? Well you aren't winning any friends by acting like that, snowflake.  ".You're not actually, meaningfully polite and tolerant, you're just too loving chickenshit to own up to being a close-minded bigot.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:33
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Sucrose posted:Because I shouldn't have to, Good news! You don't have to. I'm serious, you will not be killed by an elite genderqueer assassin using a rainbow camo rifle. It's true! You aren't being forced to use any word you don't want to. But you are still being an rear end in a top hat if you don't. So if you're so adamant on being one you should at least be upfront about it. Jesus, are you loving leaving or not?
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Mar 24, 2016 02:46
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The Kingfish posted:I think it's hilarious when queer people kill themselves. Classy.
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Mar 24, 2016 02:48
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A thought just occurred to me. What, exactly, is even wrong with being a "special snowflake"? What, are some of you proud of being without any sense of individuality? Do you take solace in your dull, bland, existences that are completely identical to so many others? Is that something that people should strive for? Edit: The Kingfish posted:I derive pleasure from the attention I receive when I bitch about being asked to use weird pronouns. I also like to feel victimized. FTFY
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Mar 24, 2016 02:53
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The Kingfish posted:People should distinguish themselves by their actions. Not by creating their own bland self-indulgent nicknames. It's like the absolute opposite of having an interesting personality. Well you're exceedingly bland and self-indulgent yourself, so obviously your way doesn't work. DeusExMachinima posted:I mean, no, if it really is that case that there's nothing new about "xir" versus "they" then I don't give a poo poo. I'd more than anything suspect I'm being trolled and made to be someone's monkey because that's usually how nonsensical poo poo is intended to work. If there's an aspect to the meaning of "xir" that I've missed please enlighten me. Maybe you should ask someone who actually wants to be called that if you want to find out? I'm not going to the reasons genderqueer people identify as genderqueer on their behalf, I just know it's a trivially easy thing to treat them with the barest minimum amount of human decency. quote:TLDR you don't matter enough to deserve something besides he/she/they. Watch out guys, we got a super edgy poster here! Make sure you're wearing your Kevlar gloves before replying.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:07
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