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I'm starting this thread because I'm really trying to define who should be under this umbrella term and why they have the influence they have in this country. We've seen a lot of great strides made in the name of tolerance and acceptance made in various state, local and national levels. This has been fantastic to see and I'm very proud of my country for doing such things. However, the religious right seems to still have (sadly) the organizational skills to influence and create laws designed to hurt LGBTQ americans, women and to a lesser extent? minorities. There seems to almost be a "southern strategy" at work here as well. After losing the battle for Gay Marriage? They've taken it upon themselves to find new ways to ensure discrimination happens at the state and local levels. Things ranging from ensuring LGBTQ individuals don't receive charity from churches to creating laws barring transgender people from using their sex's bathroom. My question is..when do they stop being such a major influence in parts of this country and when do we see them treated like religious fanatics of the past? (IE Salem Witch Trials, etc).
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Apr 9, 2016 18:30
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For that to happen, Christianity needs to lose its foothold as the dominant religion in America. I'm not saying we need to ban it, but we do need people of other faiths to be more prominent in the public. This will at least force the right to re-evaluate the echo chamber they exist in. What do other religions have to do with LGBT right? Very little, but you'd be amazed at how much a re-evaluation of some of their beliefs could change all of their beliefs. Support for say LGBT rights is increasing over the years, so maybe not even that will be necessary. So long as the public overwhelmingly accepts LGBT rights, the religious will follow suit. This is even happening right now, the states which passed those LGBT laws are being shunned, some corporations even refuse to do business with them in protest. This is all just happening super, super slowly.
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Apr 9, 2016 18:45
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SSNeoman posted:For that to happen, Christianity needs to lose its foothold as the dominant religion in America. I'm not saying we need to ban it, but we do need people of other faiths to be more prominent in the public. This will at least force the right to re-evaluate the echo chamber they exist in. What do other religions have to do with LGBT right? Very little, but you'd be amazed at how much a re-evaluation of some of their beliefs could change all of their beliefs. I'm of the belief that perhaps it's time we tax churches and religious organizations who want to take part in the political process. To quote George Carlin? "You want in the show? Pay the price of admission just like everyone else". Seriously it seems these people are able to dump a lot of cash into lobbyists and various politicians for them to do their bidding. If one could find a way to turn that spigot off? I think the country would be able to move forward very quickly.
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Apr 9, 2016 19:23
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It seems to be that it's easier to write and gain support for prohibitive laws than it is to do the same for laws that protect minority classes. This is also exacerbated by the faux-intellectual moderate idea that when presented with two options "the truth is somewhere in the middle". It's really an ugly collaboration of cynical strategy to get "values voters" to the voting booth with regressive legislation and the lazy complicity of said moderates. This will continue for as long as "stop being intolerant of my intolerance" is a viable rhetorical technique, which probably won't be until the American left stops treating religious views as applied to social policy as sacrosanct.
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Apr 9, 2016 19:34
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FuzzySkinner posted:My question is..when do they stop being such a major influence in parts of this country and when do we see them treated like religious fanatics of the past? (IE Salem Witch Trials, etc). Never. In time, their beliefs will shift and they'll move to using religion as their excuse to be conservative assholes about some other set of social issues.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:58
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You're correct that we're seeing an organized campaign against LGBT people, and that it's basically a cynical move to turn out the social conservative vote. I think the silver lining is that while this campaign will do some damage in the short term, it is basically a rearguard action by conservatives who have to do this kind of thing to stay relevant. They lost on same-sex marriage and it's obvious they will lose (overall) on protections for transgender people and whatever stupid bugaboo they have next week. Overall demographics are not on their side and political trends don't seem to be going their way either. So I think we can expect to see the religious right play a significant role for a long time to come, but not the kind of role where they get to boss around a whole party for much longer.
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Apr 10, 2016 08:35
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:You're correct that we're seeing an organized campaign against LGBT people, and that it's basically a cynical move to turn out the social conservative vote. I think the silver lining is that while this campaign will do some damage in the short term, it is basically a rearguard action by conservatives who have to do this kind of thing to stay relevant. They lost on same-sex marriage and it's obvious they will lose (overall) on protections for transgender people and whatever stupid bugaboo they have next week. Overall demographics are not on their side and political trends don't seem to be going their way either. So I think we can expect to see the religious right play a significant role for a long time to come, but not the kind of role where they get to boss around a whole party for much longer. I don't know, I think it can be dangerous to underestimate them, they've been around since the dawn of politics after all.
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Apr 10, 2016 13:26
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Megaspel posted:I don't know, I think it can be dangerous to underestimate them, they've been around since the dawn of politics after all. No they haven't, the Religious Right as you know it (connected with stuff like the Moral Majority and so on) is a fairly recent phenomenon in American political history that is still mostly limited to the US and can't be easily translated into other political contexts.
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Apr 10, 2016 13:41
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:You're correct that we're seeing an organized campaign against LGBT people, and that it's basically a cynical move to turn out the social conservative vote. I think the silver lining is that while this campaign will do some damage in the short term, it is basically a rearguard action by conservatives who have to do this kind of thing to stay relevant. They lost on same-sex marriage and it's obvious they will lose (overall) on protections for transgender people and whatever stupid bugaboo they have next week. Overall demographics are not on their side and political trends don't seem to be going their way either. So I think we can expect to see the religious right play a significant role for a long time to come, but not the kind of role where they get to boss around a whole party for much longer. Yes. Put more bluntly, things will get better as the old guard ages and dies off. Unless aggressively sheltered their grandkids have access to too much information and too many alternate perspectives for hardcore religious fundamentalism to survive leaving the nest except in small town backwaters.
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Apr 10, 2016 18:34
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Haskell9 posted:Yes. Put more bluntly, things will get better as the old guard ages and dies off. Unless aggressively sheltered their grandkids have access to too much information and too many alternate perspectives for hardcore religious fundamentalism to survive leaving the nest except in small town backwaters. Unfortunately, in the near term this will only be true for the nations of the west. As cultural and political globalization continues, I feel like there will be an increasingly international and inter-regional flavor to the fight against religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism. It's all well and good that Christian churches in Europe, America and (gradually) South America are contracting in size and cleaning the worst garbage out of their sermons; but that still leaves (for example) the massive, pulsating cultural tumors that are African Catholicism and African Evangelical Protestantism to deal with. This presents an additional problem because, among the western secular left, this novel idea has arisen that people from other parts of the globe and other cultural backgrounds should be immune from any criticism. It is entirely possible that western nations whose current populations are secularizing will, nevertheless, be bullied into instituting de-facto religious speech codes and enabling the creation of "aggressively sheltered" religious communities out of fear of being labeled racist. At the moment, this trend is mostly centered around a certain other religion, but I believe that ultra-patriarchal strains of Christianity will start using the same tactics. We've already started to see some of this in the western hemisphere, with (for example) criticism of and political action against the repugnant cultural politics of Jamaica being countered with accusations of "imperialism" calculated to appeal to a certain segment of the multicultural left. These future threats raise two important questions: How do we prevent religious conservatives from opportunistically using multiculturalism to preserve their lovely beliefs and oppressive communities? And if we can't, is multiculturalism still a worthwhile rubric?
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Apr 10, 2016 21:14
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Liberal_L33t posted:Unfortunately, in the near term this will only be true for the nations of the west. As cultural and political globalization continues, I feel like there will be an increasingly international and inter-regional flavor to the fight against religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism. It's all well and good that Christian churches in Europe, America and (gradually) South America are contracting in size and cleaning the worst garbage out of their sermons; but that still leaves (for example) the massive, pulsating cultural tumors that are African Catholicism and African Evangelical Protestantism to deal with. A) Multiculturalism is not about tolerating any and all cultural beliefs equally, multiculturalism is about not having a single hegemonic culture/ethnic group by which Moral Rightness is judged in society. Similarly, cultural relativism is not about never making value judgements, it's about properly understanding things before evaluating them. B) Wringing your hands about how secular/not secular other countries are is a goddamn waste of time because there's nothing you can do about it. What do you propose? Invade and "civilize" them, as befits the Atheist Man's Burden?
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Apr 11, 2016 00:24
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Liberal_L33t posted:Unfortunately, in the near term this will only be true for the nations of the west. As cultural and political globalization continues, I feel like there will be an increasingly international and inter-regional flavor to the fight against religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism. It's all well and good that Christian churches in Europe, America and (gradually) South America are contracting in size and cleaning the worst garbage out of their sermons; but that still leaves (for example) the massive, pulsating cultural tumors that are African Catholicism and African Evangelical Protestantism to deal with. Maybe you actually work on your own countries problems rather then forcing other countries to act how you want. Causes alot less bloodshed which no one wants.
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Apr 11, 2016 01:23
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Captain Oblivious posted:B) Wringing your hands about how secular/not secular other countries are is a goddamn waste of time because there's nothing you can do about it. What do you propose? Invade and "civilize" them, as befits the Atheist Man's Burden? He's under the impression that something about Islam makes its supporters violent, and no amount of evidence to the contrary convinces him otherwise. So, yeah basically what you said. Liberal_L33t posted:This presents an additional problem because, among the western secular left, this novel idea has arisen that people from other parts of the globe and other cultural backgrounds should be immune from any criticism. It is entirely possible that western nations whose current populations are secularizing will, nevertheless, be bullied into instituting de-facto religious speech codes and enabling the creation of "aggressively sheltered" religious communities out of fear of being labeled racist. At the moment, this trend is mostly centered around a certain other religion, but I believe that ultra-patriarchal strains of Christianity will start using the same tactics. Prove it. I'm serious. I want to see some actual, non-bullshit scientific articles on this. This is at best a point of view made from misconstrued statements and at worst a belief born out of Islamophobic, FWD:FWD:FWD:FWD-esque e-mails. This is the sort of rhetoric I expect from the EDL, you are describing their absurd "Islamization of Europe" to a T and it has no basis in society. And I know you mean Islam no need to be coy Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 03:09
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Most of the religious dickbags that qualify as the religious right make bad policies not because of religion, but because of their personal desires. It just happens that Christianity can be used as something to stand behind and shout "god says so". If these same people weren't religious or of a different religion, they'd still make the same bad policies, just they wouldn't fly the christian banner to defend their personal desires. Gradually things are changing, but that's because we're slowly kicking the old 60 year old bigots that laughed at blacks getting the fire hose out as they retire or die off. It's an ongoing pattern that needs time as each generation becomes more liberal than the last.
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Apr 11, 2016 09:34
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SocketWrench posted:as each generation becomes more liberal than the last. Just as progress needs to be worked for, each generation becoming more liberal cannot be taken for granted.
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Apr 11, 2016 09:37
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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SSNeoman posted:He's under the impression that something about Islam makes its supporters violent, and no amount of evidence to the contrary convinces him otherwise. So, yeah basically what you said. I know he does but even taking Islam out of the question I'm pretty sure trying to force cultural change from afar as an outsider has literally never gone over well, let alone on religious matters. That's the kind of thing that 100% of the time just puts said culture in a defensive, reactionary curl that makes things worse.
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Apr 11, 2016 10:57
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SocketWrench posted:Most of the religious dickbags that qualify as the religious right make bad policies not because of religion, but because of their personal desires. It just happens that Christianity can be used as something to stand behind and shout "god says so". If these same people weren't religious or of a different religion, they'd still make the same bad policies, just they wouldn't fly the christian banner to defend their personal desires. Um not really. Their religion absolutely plays a role (although some of the more cynical leaders might just be using it as a tool). To say that religion has no role in shaping the worldviews and ethical beliefs of ultraconservative evangelicalists is ridiculous.
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Apr 11, 2016 15:04
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HappyHippo posted:Um not really. Their religion absolutely plays a role (although some of the more cynical leaders might just be using it as a tool). To say that religion has no role in shaping the worldviews and ethical beliefs of ultraconservative evangelicalists is ridiculous. liberal evangelicals exist, as do non-dickhole devout social conservatives. people who want to be bastards will find one reason or another, and as religion is completely open to both interpretation and application there's very little point to trying to tease out some theological basis on which someone is a bastard about something people who are really devout and use religious justification to hate on someone tend to view the world through a spiritual lens. they probably also have religious justifications for brushing their teeth a certain way or driving slowly in the fast lane, because their lives are just stuffed full of religion. this doesn't necessarily mean that analyzing or dissembling religion will prevent these people from being bastards if anything, this reputation that deep old time religion is a haven of social regressives and bastards is in my opinion a significant driver of increasing secularism among youth
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Apr 11, 2016 17:23
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HappyHippo posted:Um not really. Their religion absolutely plays a role (although some of the more cynical leaders might just be using it as a tool). To say that religion has no role in shaping the worldviews and ethical beliefs of ultraconservative evangelicalists is ridiculous. As PTD said, people making these poo poo policies are going to be bastards one way or another. Bastards exist in every religious and non religious bent. It's just that the current ones united under one party and are dead set on setting certain policies because that's what they feel, religious background or not. Take health care for example. This same group of people railed and cried and screamed about the wrongness of healthcare and did all they could to prevent or bastardize the deal. BUT, they were also crowing about how awesome the same exact idea was when their guy (Romney) was prancing around trying to get into office. Hell, when things go the way they want (supreme court nominee for instance), they kicked and screamed and fought against it simply because it was a democrat black guy that nominated him. These people will willingly make the country tank to get their way for the simple reason that their party didn't get the credit.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:54
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Popular Thug Drink posted:liberal evangelicals exist, as do non-dickhole devout social conservatives. people who want to be bastards will find one reason or another, and as religion is completely open to both interpretation and application there's very little point to trying to tease out some theological basis on which someone is a bastard about something Yes there are religious people who aren't assholes, that isn't the point. There are a wide variety of beliefs that fall under "Christianity;" some groups have very liberal beliefs while others have very regressive/conservative beliefs. My point is that within those regressive groups religion is absolutely playing a role in shaping their views. These people aren't born bastards, they've been brought up this way and religion is very much a part of that upbringing.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:57
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HappyHippo posted:These people aren't born bastards, they've been brought up this way and religion is very much a part of that upbringing. just because religion is a part of someone's personality doesn't imply that religion is a cause or effect of any horrible opinions they might have. imagine some nerd who is so into tabletop gaming that they actually use warhammer as a metaphor for life, and they are also a massive racist. if they refer to minorities as orcs does this mean that tabletop gaming is a contributor to racism? or does it mean that this person is using specific language to express a disconnected horrible opinion? there's very little in the bible that actually speaks against homosexuality, and it says nothing about transgender persons. it says a fair amount about love, acceptance, and not being a douche. i dont see how we can then say that christianity is a root cause of anti-LGBT attitudes versus plain old social conservativism, general suspicious xenophobia, and being uncomfortable with change. religious upbringing being used as a justification to hate isn't because of religion, it's because of hate
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Apr 11, 2016 18:04
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My two cents: Any change for American Christianity is going to have to come from within. You can't force a culture to change (look at France and its anti-veil laws), any attempt by an outside force to do that simply causes the culture to become more resistant and dig in its heels. That said I do think that change is occurring among American Christians. I can only speak from anecdotal experience of those I know and have met but my impression from those I know is that they see the "culture war" as less and less important then things like economic injustice and environmental damage. Lastly I think it's partially a matter of visibility. Lets face it, what gets more airtime on Fox or CNN: The latest hateful thing Franklin Graham or Mike Huckabee says or Shane Claiborne and Rachel Held Evans (whose blog is really, really worth reading to get a look at the mindset of young evangelicals http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ ) doing genuinely good work? It's similar to the whole right-wing talking point of "Where are the moderate Muslims condemning terrorism? Why don't they?" when there are countless Muslims doing just that. Of course I might be 100% wrong here. http://time.com/4078909/evangelical-millennials/ quote:Why the Young Religious Right Is Leaning Left Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 18:05
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Nckdictator posted:My two cents: That was a really good post and article. It gives me hope that the bad shitheads can be washed out evangelicalism.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:20
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There's nothing about Evangelical Christianity that forces it to be hard right. I was a member of the Christian Union in Uni (UK) and they were hardcore Evangelical - and the biggest bunch of lefties you ever met. The UK church is generally associated with left-wing causes. There was some anti-gay and anti-feminist stuff bubbling under but it was not a focus. Everyone was really enthused on the "Jubilee 2000" movement which was about forgiving Third World debt. "Lefty Vicars" are a perpetual figure of fun in the UK.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:22
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Popular Thug Drink posted:just because religion is a part of someone's personality doesn't imply that religion is a cause or effect of any horrible opinions they might have. imagine some nerd who is so into tabletop gaming that they actually use warhammer as a metaphor for life, and they are also a massive racist. if they refer to minorities as orcs does this mean that tabletop gaming is a contributor to racism? or does it mean that this person is using specific language to express a disconnected horrible opinion? You're falling into this trap where you look at "Christianity" as a whole, see that there are many different beliefs, and then try to say that therefore these specific beliefs are not religious in origin. The problem with that is that there are many varieties of Christians, and they can and do hold extremely different beliefs that nonetheless are still religious in origin. Trying to discern what's the "real" Christainity is a fool's errand. The bible is not the sole determinant of religious belief (indeed, in many cases it plays a minor role). If someone passes on to their child their belief homosexuality is sin against God that's a religious teaching whether it came from the bible or not. I'm not saying that "Christianity" makes people hate gays, I'm saying that certain varieties of it do.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:27
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HappyHippo posted:You're falling into this trap where you look at "Christianity" as a whole, see that there are many different beliefs, and then try to say that therefore these specific beliefs are not religious in origin. The problem with that is that there are many varieties of Christians, and they can and do hold extremely different beliefs that nonetheless are still religious in origin. Trying to discern what's the "real" Christainity is a fool's errand. The bible is not the sole determinant of religious belief (indeed, in many cases it plays a minor role). If someone passes on to their child their belief homosexuality is sin against God that's a religious teaching whether it came from the bible or not. I'm not saying that "Christianity" makes people hate gays, I'm saying that certain varieties of it do. i'm really confused how you can argue "don't paint all religious people or interpretations of christianity with a broad brush" in support of the argument "we must figure out what's wrong with religious people and christianity that causes some of them to be bigots" you seem really stuck on the idea that hate wrapped in some interpretation of religion must mean that this type of religion causes hate somehow. sorry dude i'm not buying it
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Apr 11, 2016 18:29
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm really confused how you can argue "don't paint all religious people or interpretations of christianity with a broad brush" in support of the argument "we must figure out what's wrong with religious people and christianity that causes some of them to be bigots" I'm saying that "people are just bastards, religion plays no role here!" is absolutely ridiculous. Also don't put words in my mouth, again I'm not blaming "Christianity" or religious people as a whole, I'm blaming certain flavors of it. It sounds like you've made up some idea of what I'm arguing in your mind and disagreeing with that rather than what I've actually written here. Edit: also seriously? If someone is brought up their whole life being told that gayness is sinful, and they hate gay people, you think that upbringing didn't cause the hate? They're just intrinsically an rear end in a top hat? HappyHippo fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 18:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:just because religion is a part of someone's personality doesn't imply that religion is a cause or effect of any horrible opinions they might have. imagine some nerd who is so into tabletop gaming that they actually use warhammer as a metaphor for life, and they are also a massive racist. if they refer to minorities as orcs does this mean that tabletop gaming is a contributor to racism? or does it mean that this person is using specific language to express a disconnected horrible opinion? That's not something you need to imagine, that's unfortunately very real. Whooooooole lotta Neo-nazi types in the Warhammer, and to a lesser extent wargaming in general, scene. But I'm not so sure you can so wholly separate the influence that Warhammer, or religion, can have on the formation of people's beliefs and opinions. Can we say for certain that this hypothetical person would absolutely still be a massive racist without the influence of a fantasy where different races are lesser beings? Was he always destined for that position and the path he takes was meaningless because all roads lead to Rome? Or would he instead be a different person if he had joined his school's Student UN Club instead hanging out at the Games Workshop tables all day?
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Apr 11, 2016 18:38
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There's clearly something special about evangelical Christianity with regards to their views on homosexuality and sexuality in general. With many other denominations of Christianity or other religions there's not such a strong association with anti-gay beliefs.  
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Apr 11, 2016 18:44
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MaxxBot posted:There's clearly something special about evangelical Christianity with regards to their views on homosexuality and sexuality in general. With many other denominations of Christianity or other religions there's not such a strong association with anti-gay beliefs. there's some sorting factor involved here, people can freely move between the different protestant denominations without it really being thought of as a conversion so you can kind of shop around for a religious expression that fits your views rather than having your views modified by a fixed religious upbringing Who What Now posted:But I'm not so sure you can so wholly separate the influence that Warhammer, or religion, can have on the formation of people's beliefs and opinions. in the example though of a parent using religion to teach hatred though we're focusing on the religious component of the upbringing and not, you know, the upbringing parents using religious terms and justifications to teach hatred isn't a problem with religion in my mind
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Apr 11, 2016 18:48
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I was flipping through the dial like I'm prone to do and overheard some sort of preacher ranting about how "CHRISTIANS ARE HATED BY THE WORLD. JESUS SAID SO! JESUS SAYS THE WORLD HATES US!". Which left me a bit puzzled as it were. Like most people I've known that would be deemed as "secular" have some sort of religious belief, and the one that's don't? Are very apathetic about one's faith. I don't have a problem with "secular" media and "secular" beliefs because I don't find them to be that bad in terms of interfering with one's relationship with God or their religion. I don't think "The West" as it were has much of a "hatred" towards Christian, which makes that particular bit of martyrdom very puzzling. Are there rear end in a top hat internet atheists? Sure! But that's not exactly a major group of people or anything.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:04
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Popular Thug Drink posted:there's some sorting factor involved here, people can freely move between the different protestant denominations without it really being thought of as a conversion so you can kind of shop around for a religious expression that fits your views rather than having your views modified by a fixed religious upbringing So through a "religious upbringing" a religious parent teaches their child with "religious terms and justifications" that being gay is sin against god and they pick a "protestant denomination" with the same "religious expression" but somehow religion hasn't had a cause or effect on their belief?
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Apr 11, 2016 19:15
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Popular Thug Drink posted:there's some sorting factor involved here, people can freely move between the different protestant denominations without it really being thought of as a conversion so you can kind of shop around for a religious expression that fits your views rather than having your views modified by a fixed religious upbringing Yeah, this is also a factor in explaining why Roman Catholics are relatively evenly-divided, tilting toward favorable on the issue. Converting from Catholicism to a Protestant denomination is a very, very big jump for a lot of people: Catholics place a lot of value on the unity of the Church and the reality of the Sacraments, so people are more likely to continue attending Mass and/or identifying as Catholic even if their politics change. HappyHippo posted:So through a "religious upbringing" a religious parent teaches their child with "religious terms and justifications" that being gay is sin against god and they pick a "protestant denomination" with the same "religious expression" but somehow religion hasn't had a cause or effect on their belief? The point is that people will tend to change denominations if their views alter sufficiently, and most Protestant communities don't find that unusual or consider it a "conversion," so it would be expected that the "evangelical" segment would tilt heavily anti-gay-marriage. Bel_Canto fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 19:18
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Bel_Canto posted:The point is that people will tend to change denominations if their views alter sufficiently, and most Protestant communities don't find that unusual or consider it a "conversion," so it would be expected that the "evangelical" segment would tilt heavily anti-gay-marriage. It doesn't mean their view isn't a sincerely held religious belief, nor does it mean that said belief isn't reinforced and amplified by the chosen denomination. Also do you think people choose their denomination based solely on agreement with their beliefs around something as narrow homosexuality, or do you think they choose based on general agreement with their overall religious worldview?
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Apr 11, 2016 19:27
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FuzzySkinner posted:I was flipping through the dial like I'm prone to do and overheard some sort of preacher ranting about how "CHRISTIANS ARE HATED BY THE WORLD. JESUS SAID SO! JESUS SAYS THE WORLD HATES US!". there is some verse somewhere in the bible that says, if you are being persecuted, it means your doing the right thing. So thats where alot of the martyr poo poo sorta comes from. Edit. its all in peter. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 19:51
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HappyHippo posted:You're falling into this trap where you look at "Christianity" as a whole, see that there are many different beliefs, and then try to say that therefore these specific beliefs are not religious in origin. The problem with that is that there are many varieties of Christians, and they can and do hold extremely different beliefs that nonetheless are still religious in origin. Trying to discern what's the "real" Christainity is a fool's errand. The bible is not the sole determinant of religious belief (indeed, in many cases it plays a minor role). If someone passes on to their child their belief homosexuality is sin against God that's a religious teaching whether it came from the bible or not. I'm not saying that "Christianity" makes people hate gays, I'm saying that certain varieties of it do. Even assuming this was true, what exactly is the solution? Get rid of Religion? There's this idea that if you were somehow to get rid of religion that the world would suddenly be perfect, that genocidal, homicidal nutjobs would suddenly realize that a veil was pulled from their eyes and they really don't want to kill people anymore, they had it all wrong. If you want to talk about loving delusional and psychotic beliefs that have no basis in observable reality, that's a pretty drat good one right there. How exactly do you explain the eugenics movement? What part did religion have there? The Stalinist purges? The Khmer Rouge, the Nazis, the armies of Genghis Khan etc.?
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Apr 11, 2016 20:37
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Ddraig posted:Even assuming this was true, what exactly is the solution? Get rid of Religion? Jesus Christ, strawman much? I'm not implying any of that poo poo. I'm saying that religious beliefs are playing a role in the religious right's views on gay and trans people. I'm also saying that "they're just assholes looking for a justification" is a shallow and essentially incorrect analysis. I'm not saying anything about what kind of solution there is, or what sort of action should be taken, or that we need to get rid of religion, or that every bad thing ever is religiously motivated. Is that clear enough?
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Apr 11, 2016 21:22
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HappyHippo posted:Jesus Christ, strawman much? I'm not implying any of that poo poo. I'm saying that religious beliefs are playing a role in the religious right's views on gay and trans people. I'm also saying that "they're just assholes looking for a justification" is a shallow and essentially incorrect analysis. I'm not saying anything about what kind of solution there is, or what sort of action should be taken, or that we need to get rid of religion, or that every bad thing ever is religiously motivated. Is that clear enough? i don't see how "they're just assholes" is any shallower than "it's because of religion, somehow"
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Apr 11, 2016 21:40
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i don't see how "they're just assholes" is any shallower than "it's because of religion, somehow" Because it tells you nothing about where these beliefs come from, how they spread, or why they're so persistent.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:58
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HappyHippo posted:Because it tells you nothing about where these beliefs come from, how they spread, or why they're so persistent. But "Christianity" doesn't either, because there are Christians who don't share these beliefs, who abandon these beliefs, and who actively counter these beliefs, for every denomination.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:17
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