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computer parts posted:It's silly to claim being anti-LGBT is religious because plenty of nominally atheist libertarians have called for an ending of all marriage. Are you seriously asserting that libertarians called for the end of marriage because they didn't want gays to marry? Also "ending of all marriage" is kind of misleading since the libertarian position is that marriage should be a private contract between any number of people of any gender and the government's only role is to enforce the contract terms. Libertarians are fine with the concept of people getting married.
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Apr 17, 2016 22:28
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That is just baffling. The Libertarian Party was formed in 1971 and was asserting that marriage should be a contract even back then. In 1972, the Libertarian Party's presidential candidate was John Hospers, an openly gay man. In 1975, Ralph Raico wrote "Gay Rights: a Libertarian Approach" in which he wrote that he and the Party's candidates in 1976 supported, among other things, quote:-Repeal of legislation prohibiting unions between members of the same sex, and the extension to such unions of all legal rights and privileges presently enjoyed by partners in heterosexual marriages. There is simply no merit to the idea that libertarians suddenly decided they wanted the government out of marriage because they were anti-LGBT.
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Apr 17, 2016 22:49
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computer parts posted:Things can change in 30 years. Also not all Libertarians are members of the Libertarian party. That is true and I am sure you can find some people who are libertarian and also anti-LGBT. Still I bet you'll find the vast majority of self-described libertarians are extremely pro-gay rights. And while things can change, one of the things that did NOT change in 30 years was the Libertarian Party's support for gay rights, which has been constant.
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Apr 17, 2016 22:58
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computer parts posted:Ron Paul wasn't/isn't and he was the face of that movement for quite a while. This doesn't disprove my point. His positions on gay marriage are dumb old man opinions, and while he was the face for a while simply because he was actually in Congress that doesn't mean every libertarian agreed with him. I am still baffled at the idea that libertarians, a group as a whole that was pro-LGBT, slowly turned into LGBT haters between the 70s and the 2000s.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:12
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computer parts posted:This happened to evangelicals regarding birth control. This has nothing to do with what libertarians did or did not do. Again going back to your original post, we're talking about marriage as private contract and that idea dates back to at least the early 70s (and probably earlier). It did not spring up in response to the gay marriage movement.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:29
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computer parts posted:It demonstrates a group that changed beliefs radically in only 30 years. I never denied this could happen. In any case I want to lay out what I think your assertion is because I think we have gotten a tad sidetracked: you are asserting that libertarians, disgusted with the idea that gay people might get married, came up with the idea that marriage should be a private contract between two people. Somehow this solves their ickiness at gay marriage despite the fact that under this idea two men or two women could enter into such a contract?
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Apr 18, 2016 00:14
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computer parts posted:Unless you find Libertarians to be inherently special in some way. They're not inherently special in that they can't radically change over time. However they did not turn anti-LGBT rights and gay marriage between 1976 and now. That is the specific claim you are making and it is wrong. Whatever evangelicals have to do with birth control is irrelevant to that claim. I never ever asserted that groups in general couldn't change radically over time. fast cars loose anus fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 01:32
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computer parts posted:Actually it's not, because you're conflating "Libertarians" with "The Libertarian Party". You actually haven't shown that Libertarians as a whole were pro-LGBT in the 70s and are still such today. I am not confusing them but if you can't understand that a political party made up of libertarians is a good proxy for what libertarians think I don't really know what to tell you. This is especially true since it's not a big tent party like Republicans or Democrats. In any case you haven't come close to proving your idea that libertarians are now anti-gay marriage, and in fact your idea is incoherent. If they were anti-gay marriage, they wouldn't want the government to get out of the marriage licensing business because that would allow for gay marriage. Like you do understand this right? That when libertarians float the idea of marriage privatization they don't set limits on who can enter into such a contract?
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Apr 18, 2016 01:53
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Again I want to state this as clearly as possible. You asserted that libertarians proposed marriage privatization because they did not like gay marriage. Marriage privatization allows for gay marriage. Therefore you have made the following argument, boiled down to its essence: quote:Libertarians opposed gay marriage so they proposed a system that allowed gay marriage. If you cannot see the contradiction there I simply cannot help you.
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Apr 18, 2016 02:05
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computer parts posted:Marriage privatization allows for gays to become a union, it does not allow for what they have to be legally declared "marriage". The fact that this is proposed as a solution when people were protesting for gay marriage is suspect. But these unions would apply to heterosexual marriages too. No one would have a legally declared "marriage" that's the point.
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Apr 18, 2016 02:15
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Man that is a weird way of looking at the world. Someone proposes a solution to the constant court and legal battles over gay marriage that gives everyone all the benefits of marriage - must be because they don't like the idea of gays marrying.
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Apr 18, 2016 02:20
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Alright well we're going to have to agree to disagree and let's not confuse Ron Paul with all libertarians either. e: also anecdote is not data but I've never met a single libertarian online or in real life who didn't support gay rights which is why I find that assertion so strange. fast cars loose anus fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 02:27
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