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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trying to understand the Religious Right
 
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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SocketWrench posted:

Most of the religious dickbags that qualify as the religious right make bad policies not because of religion, but because of their personal desires. It just happens that Christianity can be used as something to stand behind and shout "god says so". If these same people weren't religious or of a different religion, they'd still make the same bad policies, just they wouldn't fly the christian banner to defend their personal desires.

Um not really. Their religion absolutely plays a role (although some of the more cynical leaders might just be using it as a tool). To say that religion has no role in shaping the worldviews and ethical beliefs of ultraconservative evangelicalists is ridiculous.

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 15:04
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

liberal evangelicals exist, as do non-dickhole devout social conservatives. people who want to be bastards will find one reason or another, and as religion is completely open to both interpretation and application there's very little point to trying to tease out some theological basis on which someone is a bastard about something

people who are really devout and use religious justification to hate on someone tend to view the world through a spiritual lens. they probably also have religious justifications for brushing their teeth a certain way or driving slowly in the fast lane, because their lives are just stuffed full of religion. this doesn't necessarily mean that analyzing or dissembling religion will prevent these people from being bastards

if anything, this reputation that deep old time religion is a haven of social regressives and bastards is in my opinion a significant driver of increasing secularism among youth

Yes there are religious people who aren't assholes, that isn't the point. There are a wide variety of beliefs that fall under "Christianity;" some groups have very liberal beliefs while others have very regressive/conservative beliefs. My point is that within those regressive groups religion is absolutely playing a role in shaping their views. These people aren't born bastards, they've been brought up this way and religion is very much a part of that upbringing.

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 17:57
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

just because religion is a part of someone's personality doesn't imply that religion is a cause or effect of any horrible opinions they might have. imagine some nerd who is so into tabletop gaming that they actually use warhammer as a metaphor for life, and they are also a massive racist. if they refer to minorities as orcs does this mean that tabletop gaming is a contributor to racism? or does it mean that this person is using specific language to express a disconnected horrible opinion?

there's very little in the bible that actually speaks against homosexuality, and it says nothing about transgender persons. it says a fair amount about love, acceptance, and not being a douche. i dont see how we can then say that christianity is a root cause of anti-LGBT attitudes versus plain old social conservativism, general suspicious xenophobia, and being uncomfortable with change. religious upbringing being used as a justification to hate isn't because of religion, it's because of hate

You're falling into this trap where you look at "Christianity" as a whole, see that there are many different beliefs, and then try to say that therefore these specific beliefs are not religious in origin. The problem with that is that there are many varieties of Christians, and they can and do hold extremely different beliefs that nonetheless are still religious in origin. Trying to discern what's the "real" Christainity is a fool's errand. The bible is not the sole determinant of religious belief (indeed, in many cases it plays a minor role). If someone passes on to their child their belief homosexuality is sin against God that's a religious teaching whether it came from the bible or not. I'm not saying that "Christianity" makes people hate gays, I'm saying that certain varieties of it do.

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 18:27
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

i'm really confused how you can argue "don't paint all religious people or interpretations of christianity with a broad brush" in support of the argument "we must figure out what's wrong with religious people and christianity that causes some of them to be bigots"

you seem really stuck on the idea that hate wrapped in some interpretation of religion must mean that this type of religion causes hate somehow. sorry dude i'm not buying it

I'm saying that "people are just bastards, religion plays no role here!" is absolutely ridiculous. Also don't put words in my mouth, again I'm not blaming "Christianity" or religious people as a whole, I'm blaming certain flavors of it. It sounds like you've made up some idea of what I'm arguing in your mind and disagreeing with that rather than what I've actually written here.

Edit: also seriously? If someone is brought up their whole life being told that gayness is sinful, and they hate gay people, you think that upbringing didn't cause the hate? They're just intrinsically an rear end in a top hat?

HappyHippo fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 11, 2016

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 18:34
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

there's some sorting factor involved here, people can freely move between the different protestant denominations without it really being thought of as a conversion so you can kind of shop around for a religious expression that fits your views rather than having your views modified by a fixed religious upbringing


in the example though of a parent using religion to teach hatred though we're focusing on the religious component of the upbringing and not, you know, the upbringing

parents using religious terms and justifications to teach hatred isn't a problem with religion in my mind

So through a "religious upbringing" a religious parent teaches their child with "religious terms and justifications" that being gay is sin against god and they pick a "protestant denomination" with the same "religious expression" but somehow religion hasn't had a cause or effect on their belief?

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 19:15
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Bel_Canto posted:

The point is that people will tend to change denominations if their views alter sufficiently, and most Protestant communities don't find that unusual or consider it a "conversion," so it would be expected that the "evangelical" segment would tilt heavily anti-gay-marriage.

It doesn't mean their view isn't a sincerely held religious belief, nor does it mean that said belief isn't reinforced and amplified by the chosen denomination.

Also do you think people choose their denomination based solely on agreement with their beliefs around something as narrow homosexuality, or do you think they choose based on general agreement with their overall religious worldview?

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 19:27
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Ddraig posted:

Even assuming this was true, what exactly is the solution? Get rid of Religion?

There's this idea that if you were somehow to get rid of religion that the world would suddenly be perfect, that genocidal, homicidal nutjobs would suddenly realize that a veil was pulled from their eyes and they really don't want to kill people anymore, they had it all wrong.

If you want to talk about loving delusional and psychotic beliefs that have no basis in observable reality, that's a pretty drat good one right there. How exactly do you explain the eugenics movement? What part did religion have there? The Stalinist purges? The Khmer Rouge, the Nazis, the armies of Genghis Khan etc.?

Jesus Christ, strawman much? I'm not implying any of that poo poo. I'm saying that religious beliefs are playing a role in the religious right's views on gay and trans people. I'm also saying that "they're just assholes looking for a justification" is a shallow and essentially incorrect analysis. I'm not saying anything about what kind of solution there is, or what sort of action should be taken, or that we need to get rid of religion, or that every bad thing ever is religiously motivated. Is that clear enough?

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 21:22
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

i don't see how "they're just assholes" is any shallower than "it's because of religion, somehow"

Because it tells you nothing about where these beliefs come from, how they spread, or why they're so persistent.

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 21:58
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Brainiac Five posted:

But "Christianity" doesn't either, because there are Christians who don't share these beliefs, who abandon these beliefs, and who actively counter these beliefs, for every denomination.

For like the tenth time: there are different varieties of Christian belief. This is just about some of them. That doesn't mean these aren't religious beliefs. I don't know what's so hard about this.

Ddraig posted:

Belief in religion comes from a fear of death and pending oblivion. This is a curse of our self-awareness. They're spread because they offer answers to the questions of impending death, and the reason they're persistent is because we have no other options, yet.

This is a different question as to why people are assholes. If you want to find the answer to that, our best bet would be neurology or other brain-related science, or perhaps sociology.

I consider myself an agnostic. I don't particularly think about the existence of God or any sort of higher power in my day to day life because it doesn't really concern me. Humans are very, very good at excusing their excessive behaviour with various modes of thought, be they religious, political or otherwise. I do not readily accept the idea that if you were to get rid of one of these excuses, or even all of them, that people would stop being terrible to each other. That's absurd.

What you do take away, though, is the comfort people feel when facing impending oblivion. Seeing as how I'm not (generally) an rear end in a top hat, I would not begrudge people that comfort at all, even if I don't feel the need for it myself.

Don't even know where to start with this. Again, stop putting words in my mouth: just because there can be assholes without religion doesn't mean certain religious beliefs don't spread well.

Also the roots of religious belief are much more complex than that, but it's off topic for this thread.

Let's cut to the chase: certain christian groups have messed up views on morality, specifically sexual morality. For them sex is immoral unless it's for procreating. God has assigned us gender roles, and not fulfilling them is disobedience to god and therefore sinful. Sex for pleasure is immoral to these people (this people tend to have negative views of sex before marriage, oral sex, birth control, etc). Since gay sex can't produce children it's a "perversion" of God's assigned roles and is therefore sinful. Trans people are also being disobedient to god by rejecting his assigned role for them.

This particular view of homosexuality spreads easily because it let's the people believing in it feel pious and superior. This is particularly true in a religious context that emphasizes that all your natural urges are sinful. That can make people feel uncomfortable. Focusing on a group of people who've "given in" to an urge you don't even feel can easy the psychological stress inherent in that worldview.

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 23:12
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

i think it further undercuts your argument when you say "not all religion, but some religion, explains bigotry" when it's just as likely, and in my opinion more plausible, that bigots create and perpetuate religious explanations of non-religious bigotry


gamergaters also have messed up views on sexuality, which they aggressively and vigorously perpetuate. i really don't see how you can blame negative and bigoted social attitudes on the language people use to describe a hateful idea. people construct all kinds of mental frameworks to say yes you should do this, no you shouldn't do this, but i wouldn't say that the framework is essentially to blame or even explains the motivations of why that framework was constructed to begin with

You're really bad at arguing. If I can't say something that's true for all religious beliefs, then I can't say something about some specific religious beliefs? And some people being bigots without religion somehow means that other people aren't bigots because of religion? Sorry but I can't follow either of those.

* # ¿ Apr 11, 2016 23:40
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

you're not actually explaining how or why religion leads to bigotry. you're accurately describing how religion can be used as a method of communication to transfer cultural values such as suspicion of sexual minorities, and you're describing how religion can be linked to those values as a way of justifying them, but so far you're merely asserting that religion, somehow, must be a causal factor in driving people to be bigots. like you're just skipping right over "I can't say something that's true for all religious beliefs" without explaining or considering that maybe this means religious belief is not a fundamental driver of bigotry if it's only true for some subset of religious beliefs

I'm not saying religion creates bigots out of thin air, I'm saying, in the context of the Religious Right (remember, the topic of this thread?) that their beliefs are genuinely religious beliefs which are a part of their religious worldview that they've been raised with and received from various religious teachings, which they pass on to others. Also certain other beliefs (namely those regarding sexual morality) make them more susceptible to this. I can't understand your alternative, it seems you think people have this bigotry that they got "somehow" (but not religiously) but they only talk about it and communicate it to others in religious terms, but somehow their religion isn't playing a role in shaping this belief.

Again your last sentence makes no sense at all. There are an astounding variety of religious beliefs. Because I can't say ALL of them lead to bigotry I can't say SOME of them do? It's like you can only comprehend absolutist statements like "ALL religion leads to bigotry" and, determining that isn't true, jump to the opposite absolutist statement of "therefore NO religion leads to bigotry."

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 00:58
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

yes, you've said this before, and i said that one person instilling bigoted ideas in another person using religious language is not an example of religion causing bigotry, it's an example of one person writing their cultural values onto another person using a common language. this is no more religion causing bigotry than english causing bigotry or chatrooms causing bigotry
You're very much hung up on religion "causing" bigotry. Religion isn't some independent force in the universe, it's a collection of beliefs and values (some of which may be bigoted) held by individuals. The only force it has is through those individuals and their words and actions. If they pass on those bigoted values to someone else who was receptive to the message due to their similar religious worldview, or if they instill those values in their children, then religion is playing a role in those bigoted beliefs and values.

quote:

no, i'm just pointing out that you haven't actually proposed or demonstrated a causal mechanism where religious principles, in a vacuum, directly creates bigoted attitudes in an otherwise unbigoted person and i'm using the wide diversity of religious belief to undermine your assertion
Why would I have to do such a ridiculous thing? Religious principles don't exist in a vacuum. None of this has anything to do with what happens in the real world. You've set an impossible standard for something I've never claimed in the first place. Just to remind you my point from the beginning is that religious beliefs play a role the bigotry of the American religious right, nothing to do with direct causation or creation of beliefs ex nihilo.

quote:

since people can come up with their own religious tenets, and often do so, it's strange that you would say religion is the prime factor here and not the person who thought up the bad idea or the person who heard the bad idea and said "yes i agree with this"
Their religious worldview shapes how they understand and interpret the idea. If that makes them more receptive to the idea then their religious beliefs are playing a role in the popularity of that idea.

HappyHippo fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Apr 12, 2016

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 03:18
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Brainiac Five posted:

Actually, though, this particular brand of Christianity generates a number of liberal Christians, just like every Christian denomination has. In order to narrow the brand down to one that is almost-universally homophobic, you need to use qualifiers like "conservative" which exist outside of the religious sphere, rendering this totalitarian notion of religion to be a clear absurdity.

Not every cloud brings rain, doesn't mean there isn't a connection between clouds and rain.

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 03:22
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

i'll be more clear - you're confusing correlation with causation. if you're not talking about causation, and you're just saying "sometimes religious people are bigots" then i'm not sure what it is you're arguing. congrats for noticing? sometimes left handed people are bigots. sometimes tall people are bigots. whoop de doo

when it comes to shaping the worldview and perceptions of bigots, the english language has more to do with perpetuating bigotry then religion, given the number of secular english speaking bigots. ergo we must conclude that speaking english directly contributes to the spread of bigotry

You keep reducing religion to a mere language by which bigotry is communicated. Religion is more than a language, it's a set of beliefs and values. It's the contents of those beliefs and values that I'm saying are contributing.

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 15:07
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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SocketWrench posted:

Of course it does, but not to some extent that's the only reason why.

Something no one has claimed in this thread.

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 16:50
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Main Paineframe posted:

It goes exactly the opposite way that you might expect, though. They don't believe things because of their religion, they use their religion to protect their beliefs. One has only to look at how much the awful beliefs people held in the name of religion have changed over time. A hundred-fifty years ago, the Bible Belt believed that black skin was a curse visited by God upon Africans for Biblical sins and basically obligated white people to deprive them of their freedom, and that the US had the God-given right to take all of North America for itself and freely rob anyone in its path. A hundred years ago (and even much more recently), they considered interracial marriage to be a sin and said that segregation was a divinely-ordained part of God's plan. It's local culture and tradition being taught with and masquerading as "religion", the recasting of hatred as heroism (i.e., "I'm not pro-segregation because I hate black people, I'm just trying to do God's will by protecting the divine gift of purity of race that he bestowed upon white people"), combined with a healthy dose of "you might disagree with us but you can't disagree with God - checkmate, you lieberal commie scum :smugbert:".

At the same time, it's not like all racists were evangelicals or even religious at all, either! The scientific racism that got real big in the early-to-mid 20th century was full of smug atheists, and the eugenics policies they inspired were at least as bad as anything the evangelicals were doing at the time.

quote:

No, but I don't think "upbringing" necessarily equals "religion" either. If someone grows up being told by their parents and their teachers and every other adult authority figure in their life that minorities are inferior, then sure, they'll probably grow into an adult who believes that minorities are inferior...but that's not a sincere religious belief, it's just plain old indoctrination, something that even atheists are hardly immune to. At best, it's an aspect of the local culture, not the religion. It's not something that sprang forth from the Bible, it's a local custom that they associated with the Bible because they saw education as something that Bible-centric.

1) Religious beliefs can change with time.
2) Culture, tradition and religion are intertwined, and you can't tease them apart so easily. "That's not religion, that's culture" is nonsensical, religion is an aspect of culture, it can easily be both.
3) You seem to be dismissing these beliefs as not being "genuine" religious beliefs. On what basis? This is starting to sound like "no true Christian could believe that! Therefore it mustn't be an actual religious belief. It must be something else."
4) The Bible isn't the start and end of religious beliefs. There are many religious beliefs that aren't part of the bible, and many which contradict the bible. There are whole religions without holy books even. "It wasn't in the bible" has no bearing on whether or not something is a religious belief.

It looks like you're falling into the trap of trying to figure out what Christianity "really" is, and dismissing anything that disagrees as being merely cultural.

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 17:17
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

do you have some basis by which we can distinguish between culture, religion, and politics, if we can't go by biblical teachings as a meaningful metric for what is/is not christian?

"Gay sex is sin against God" is a religious statement, in that it invokes the religious concepts of "sin" and "God." Is that confusing?

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 18:18
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Main Paineframe posted:

If religion can't easily be separated from culture and tradition, but is just an aspect of those two, then how can you say that these beliefs are specifically coming from "religion"? This is particularly the case when different cultures that share the same religion believe different things - it's awfully hard to blame the belief that's different on the religion that's the same, rather than on the cultural differences.

Your argument is based on the false premise that just because two people are Christians they must share the same religious beliefs (or be the same religion). There's a wide variety of belief that falls under the umbrella of "Christianity." "Christianity" is a taxonomic label that describes religions sharing a belief in Jesus, don't confuse it with the actual beliefs of the various groups and people who fit that extremely broad definition.

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 20:45
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Main Paineframe posted:

It looks like you're falling into the trap of trying to figure out what Christianity "really" is, and then defining it broadly enough that you can blame basically every aspect of any US or European culture you don't like on it.

1) "you can blame basically every aspect of any US or European culture you don't like on it" - oh so we're jumping from me saying religion plays a role in the Religious Right to me blaming everything bad on religion? Spend less time trying to zing me and more time reading what I've actually written.

2) This is literally what you said:

Main Paineframe posted:

This is particularly the case when different cultures that share the same religion believe different things - it's awfully hard to blame the belief that's different on the religion that's the same, rather than on the cultural differences.
So are (for example) transubstantiation and purgatory not religious beliefs now because not every Christian believes in them? Or does this argument only apply to religious beliefs that make you feel uncomfortable?

* # ¿ Apr 12, 2016 22:26
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Main Paineframe posted:

Sure, but declaring that a relationship exists and that religion plays a part in the structure that they contextualize their beliefs within is much, much different from saying "they believe those things because of Christianity", a statement which displays an incredible lack of nuance.

Good thing nobody said that then. Could you do everyone a favor and argue with what's written rather what you make up in your head? That goes for this response too:

Main Paineframe posted:

If you point to one group that believes in purgatory and another group that doesn't, and say that the group that believes in purgatory believes it because they're "Christian", that would be wrong - since some Christians don't believe in purgatory, obviously some other factor besides Christianity is far more directly responsible for the belief in purgatory. It would be correct, on the other hand, to say that the group that believes in purgatory believes in it because they're Catholic (I assume, anyway).

Nobody is saying Christianity automatically makes you hate the gays, they're saying religion plays a role in the beliefs of the Religious Right.

* # ¿ Apr 13, 2016 15:38
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Main Paineframe posted:

Do they have any evidence beyond "well, that's what they said and clearly no one has ever lied in politics"? Because I'm saying that no, religion has not been shown to play a meaningful role in the political beliefs of the "Religious" Right, something that should be utterly obvious from the existence of people who are of the exact same religion but do not share those political beliefs.

Two people can have the same "religion" with two different beliefs that are nonetheless religious. I don't know how I can put it any simpler.

HappyHippo fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 13, 2016

* # ¿ Apr 13, 2016 16:57
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HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

maybe the problem isn't that other people are too dense to understand your argument, but rather that your argument is nonsensical no matter how much you simplify it

Actually plenty of people have understood it. I suspect those who don't are uncomfortable with (what they perceive as) the implications.

HappyHippo fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Apr 13, 2016

* # ¿ Apr 13, 2016 19:55
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HappyHippo
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

but then we're back to stretching things too far to establish 'religious' justifications for behaviors, like how dungeons and dragons is a tool of satan which is a totally valid christian doctrine and not at all based on a series of protestant moral panics, you know, book of cards, 5:13, "thou shalt not tumble the multi-sided die"
There's no stretching going on. "Gay sex is a sin" is on it's face a religious belief. It's stated in religious terms. It's justified in a religious ethical framework. It's preached by religious leaders, and believed by religious followers. The only stretching going on is the mental contortions you and Main Paineframe are going through in order to pretend that religion isn't playing a role.

For example

Main Paineframe posted:

So why are those beliefs different? Is it because of the religion? That seems unlikely, since they have the same religious beliefs. It seems far more likely that the difference in their beliefs is caused by some other factor that has nothing in particular to do with their religion! Your claim that two people who hold the same beliefs on thing A and different beliefs on thing B must necessarily draw their stance on B from their shared belief in A is utterly senseless, and I can't see it as anything other than an attempt to handwave away far more important variables so you can blame things on religion.
They don't have the same religious beliefs. It's possible for two people to have two different beliefs on a religious topic, and for both of those beliefs to be religious in nature and sincerely held. There are literally thousands of examples of this. It's also possible for two people to start from the same premises and reach a different conclusion. That happens all the time, on all kinds of topics, religious or not. It's like you're some kind of robot. "Two people read the same book and reached different conclusions?! DOES NOT COMPUTE"

* # ¿ Apr 13, 2016 22:09
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HappyHippo
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Popular Thug Drink posted:

religion also plays a role in saying "gay sex is not a sin".
True

Popular Thug Drink posted:

therefore, as far as society as a whole cares, religion is both for and against any concievable issue
No one is trying to say that "religion," as an abstract concept, is totally for or against anything. It doesn't even make sense to talk about what "religion," in the abstract, is for or against. The point is that this subset of society, with these particular religious beliefs is against gay rights.

Popular Thug Drink posted:

it's pretty ironic that you're arguing about how people can have different conclusions while busting someone's balls for not understanding your perfect, flawless argument
Being aware that people can reach different conclusions, and disagreeing with the conclusions that someone has on a matter and trying to convince them otherwise, isn't in the slightest bit contradictory or ironic.

* # ¿ Apr 13, 2016 22:41
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trying to understand the Religious Right