Snowman_McK posted:Or alternatively, the same industry that thought Gemma Arterton was a good choice for a movie called "Prince of Persia" and a Swedish guy was a good choice for "Gods of Egypt" and honestly cannot see the problem with casting hispanics as middle easterners actually is kind of dumb when it comes to race. worked out pretty good for cliff curtis
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Apr 20, 2016 04:28
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LEGO Genetics posted:I can't believe Masamune Shirow actually allowed Hollywood to make an adaption of this. Orson Scott Card not only let them make a big Hollywood movie out of Ender's Game but he even tried to hide what a batshit bigot and he was so it wouldn't hurt the box office returns.
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Apr 20, 2016 05:32
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Clipperton posted:worked out pretty good for cliff curtis It's funny that they confirmed Cliff Curtis' character in Fear the Walking Dead as a Maori dude. I think it might be the first time he's ever portrayed his actual ethnicity in an American production.
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Apr 20, 2016 06:57
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Ah gently caress it just give 'em a fake beard.
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Apr 20, 2016 07:29
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I just found this thread after posting in the GBS one for awhile. I'm going to hit this all at once...phasmid posted:Innocence was also cool because it had a crazy villain and an army of Motokos. Top that, motherfucker. Also, it continues the great ongoing joke that Batou keeps the arsenal of a small country in the trunk of his car (which he uses to kill a whole bar full of Yakuza men and a weird borg brainslave with a metal claw on his hand.) All the while going "I just want to talk" to Togusa as he's going to the bar. That's a great scene. computer parts posted:The synopsis from the OP's article is the following: Funny, I've been going over this recently and take a look and that synopsis could be for an entirely different property... quote:Based on the internationally-acclaimed sci-fi property, Seriously, if the finished plot is anything like that pitch, I'd suspect that someone just erased the character names from their DX:HR movie script and inserted Kusanagi and gang. Hodgepodge posted:If Johansson refused a major role due to whitewashing, it would be a huge deal, and would set a standard that producers would have to take into account. If Johansson dropped the role, Margot Robbie would have got the part, since there was talk about her as Kusanagi back then as well. It looks like the plan was always to have a Caucasian actress as Kusanagi. HorseLord posted:So now we've covered Paramount's enquiry into building an electric yellowface machine, I'm wondering what a non-Japanese version of GITS could even be. The entire premise of the series comes from the history of postwar Japan, it's place in the world, how it's society relates to technology, and where that could lead to in the future. No, it doesn't. This is one of those things Jon Tsuei brought up and it's highly disagreeable. Foreign powers play very little in the source material: America hardly shows up at all, Russians are the antagonists for one chapter, and the final arc is unseen Israelis manipulating Kusanagi into getting her head blown off. For the most part, Section 9 is going after shady corporations, third world exiled elites, and corrupt politicians. Also, Section 9, despite being nominally in the National Public Safety Agency, doesn't operate like the cops nor is staffed by people who. It's not Kochikame, You're Under Arrest or at least Patlabor. Shirow himself based Batou, Togusa, and Aramaki off "C.I.5: The Professionals" a British TV series from ITV about a trio of super cops who work outside the normal British police channels. Part of the reason why GITS became so popular worldwide is that the story was largely universal. You didn't have to have a major in Japanese politics and foreign relations to follow it. For a contemporary of GITS that does follow that deals with postwar Japan and it's place in the world, that's Angel Cop, unfortunately. The anime's original anti-Semitism that was edited out of foreign releases is notably famous, but, in the original manga, it's straight-up anti-Americanism. Neo Rasa posted:There was a rumor of this, that when she's in cyberspace she looks Japanese and has blue/purple hair/etc. but from what Paramount said it really was just tests for the actors in general. This, plus where's Neil Blomkamp? Where's Rian Johnson? Well, we know Johnson's got bigger fish to fry. Gyges posted:I love that all you need for Cyborg eyes is a pair of swim goggles. TBF, it's not particularly clear how Batou's (and Boma's) eyes work. I think there supposed to be like Molly from "Neuromancer", where they're an external covering, but sometimes Shirow drew them like they were coming out of his eyelids, like they had an added lens magnification to them. I have the time, I think I really need to come up with that Westernized Ghost In The Shell "concept art" that I've been meaning to do since hearing about this years ago. Major Excalibur, here we come.
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Apr 20, 2016 11:47
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Vanderdeath posted:It's funny that they confirmed Cliff Curtis' character in Fear the Walking Dead as a Maori dude. I think it might be the first time he's ever portrayed his actual ethnicity in an American production. No one's going to buy Sheikh Fadlallah/Claudio Perrini/Yeshua of Nazareth as a Maori. Serious posts only please
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Apr 20, 2016 16:58
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Are they whitewashing all the characters or just Scarjo? Its hard for me to get up in arms about a white actress playing a character whose body is almost entirely robotic. I'm not sure Motoko Kusanagi even *has* a race.
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Apr 20, 2016 18:39
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Lots of the complaints are coming from working Asian American actresses, who have literally never been offered a role that big in 100+ years of Hollywood and likely never will before they retire.
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Apr 20, 2016 18:53
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Squinty posted:Lots of the complaints are coming from working Asian American actresses, who have literally never been offered a role that big in 100+ years of Hollywood and likely never will before they retire. Yeah, and that's a legitimate issue, but it doesn't seem like this particular character is that good of a place for that battle. Tilda Swinton getting cast as the ancient one, OK, that I get completely why it's a problem. But Kusanagi arguably doesn't have a race. It's like complaining about the race of the voice actor for Shodan in a system shock remake.
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Apr 20, 2016 19:00
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Kusanagi is a Japanese national with a Japanese name working for the Japanese government with an explicitly Japanese-coded cyberbody in most versions of the story, she's pretty obviously Japanese.
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Apr 20, 2016 19:14
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mr. stefan posted:Kusanagi is a Japanese national with a Japanese name working for the Japanese government with an explicitly Japanese-coded cyberbody in most versions of the story, she's pretty obviously Japanese. As a nationality, yes, sure. But it's established in the TV show that she had a fully artificial body ever since childhood. I think she even body swaps a few times. Like, the whole movie could just be the week she was wearing a more Caucasian cyberbody model. Maybe a better way of saying it is that she doesn't have a fixed race.
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Apr 20, 2016 19:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, and that's a legitimate issue, but it doesn't seem like this particular character is that good of a place for that battle. Tilda Swinton getting cast as the ancient one, OK, that I get completely why it's a problem. But Kusanagi arguably doesn't have a race. It's like complaining about the race of the voice actor for Shodan in a system shock remake. I mean, race is a social construct, not a physical trait, and the character thus far has always been portrayed as socially and physically Japanese. If they want to make the point that race is superficial and irrelevant, part of the shell and not the ghost, then the fact that they could never have made this film without casting a pretty white girl as the lead kind of betrays that hypothesis. I do think that Tilda Swinton doing her best David Carradine impression is the worse of the two, but Ming Na Wen is the one who got the ball rolling here and she's on Marvel's payroll.
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Apr 20, 2016 19:27
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Squinty posted:If they want to make the point that race is superficial and irrelevant, part of the shell and not the ghost, then the fact that they could never have made this film without casting a pretty white girl as the lead kind of betrays that hypothesis. Maybe they're making the point that it isn't but it should be.
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Apr 20, 2016 19:35
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Squinty posted:I mean, race is a social construct, not a physical trait, and the character thus far has always been portrayed as socially and physically Japanese. If they want to make the point that race is superficial and irrelevant, part of the shell and not the ghost, then the fact that they could never have made this film without casting a pretty white girl as the lead kind of betrays that hypothesis. OK, fair points. I get why this is an issue, I think it's just setting off my grognard pet peeves. Edit: I also think that this thread, hell, this page of this thread, has probably spent twice as much time discussing the racial aspects of this casting decision as anyone inside the studio dis before it was announced publicly. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 19:37
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Clipperton posted:Maybe they're making the point that it isn't but it should be. By making it worse? The way to make that point would be to cast an Asian lead and CGI her white.
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Apr 20, 2016 19:39
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HorseLord posted:I've always been fond of "anime characters are white" arguments. Like, that people sincerely argue all these Japanese characters, in Japan, are white, because they don't look like what a white person expects a drawing of a Japanese person to look like. I'm against whitewashing GITS, but its not a controversial statement to say that many japanese animation styles default to or idealize white features. It's a strange part of asian culture in general (especially Korea). That's not to say that they worship white people or anything silly like that, just that they have a high opinion of the West; there's a reason every other main character in a realistic setting is half-japanese half-american (not even kidding).
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Apr 20, 2016 20:02
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The weirdest thing about this entire controversy is that Hollywood loves hiring foreign actors...because they can skirt around the Actors Guild. Its pretty bizarre that they'd get themselves into do much trouble whitewashing a cult classic and getting controversy trying to throw CGI at yet another film problem. I'm guessing they hope to ride ScarJo's appearance in Civil War to easy bucks for an unknown (in western cinema) property.
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Apr 20, 2016 20:12
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Neurolimal posted:I'm against whitewashing GITS, but its not a controversial statement to say that many japanese animation styles default to or idealize white features. It's a strange part of asian culture in general (especially Korea). There is *some* truth to that, esp as regards skin tone and hair color, but part of it also is that many characters are just drawn racially neutral, as iconic cartoons, and then Western audiences see them as Western while Asian audiences see them as Asian. You can spot this phenomenon if the cartoon contains a character intended to be British / American -- they'll have blond hair and be drawn with long, sharp features and a big nose. (And if British, they'll probably be the villain). Edit: why do I know this much about anime, I thought I hadn't watched that much of it Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 20:14
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Are they whitewashing all the characters or just Scarjo? I don't understand why it's a big focus point for some people either.
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Apr 20, 2016 21:39
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LEGO Genetics posted:I can't believe Masamune Shirow actually allowed Hollywood to make an adaption of this. I can. He made a shitload of money from it.
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Apr 20, 2016 21:45
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LEGO Genetics posted:I can't believe Masamune Shirow actually allowed Hollywood to make an adaption of this. Have you seen the guys modern art (protip: Don't)? Shirow is absolutely not above making a buck.
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Apr 20, 2016 21:55
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Neurolimal posted:Have you seen the guys modern art (protip: Don't)? Shirow is absolutely not above making a buck. GitS 2: Man-Machine Interface felt like it was done to capitalize on the growing popularity of the series outside of Japan and it was absolute garbage. I honestly think the Ghost in the Shell movies, Stand Alone Complex, 2nd Gig and Solid State Society are the "real" stories since they're divorced from Shirow's stink.
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Apr 20, 2016 22:41
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iirc Shirow got absolutely turbofucked around '95 when he had his home destroyed in an earthquake and lost literally all of his setting notes, drafts, and property, so he started drawing outright porn just to get back on his feet and never really got back to where he used to be artistically
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Apr 20, 2016 23:50
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Vanderdeath posted:GitS 2: Man-Machine Interface felt like it was done to capitalize on the growing popularity of the series outside of Japan and it was absolute garbage. I honestly think the Ghost in the Shell movies, Stand Alone Complex, 2nd Gig and Solid State Society are the "real" stories since they're divorced from Shirow's stink. At the same time, SAC part of the franchise (including 2nd GIG and SSS) mines heavily from both the original and GITS1.5: Human Error Processor, as well as Appleseed. I actually like Human Error Processor because Kusanagi is largely not in it and gives the other characters, particularly Togusa and Saito, more time in the spotlight. Also, you find out there's more women than Motoko at Section 9, the almost identical Kohl and Qwer. Also, GITS1.5 is a bit more influential than people realize: the tank fight in the first movie is a combination of the fight in 08 Dumb Barter and the fight against the deep sea mining robot in 1.5. The Major tearing off her own limbs to open a tank hatch happens in GITS1.5. People try downplaying Shirow's early writing and storytelling, but, just now, I went through the first book to get the chapter title and ended up read through that whole chapter. It's still fairly tight and, despite reading it a hundred times, it still feels tense and gives you the impression that Kusanagi and/or Togusa might die. The same goes for Appleseed and it's a shame that he's basically given up following up on it and let Shinji Aramaki poo poo all over it with his CGI movies. Of course, I'm not sure how much is Shirow and how much is Toren Smith, who brought Shirow's name to at least America's attention, but you can easily follow the story without dialogue in most cases (which, I did for so many years prior to the English translation, I have the original Japanese tankoban, lezbot sex scene and all, that I bought in 1993-94) so it's likely that Shirow was a better storyteller back then. But you're right about GITS2. It's were Shirow started going up his own rear end. There's way too much digital effects and lens flares and computer-generated glossy bodies. And the computer effects don't hold up, they look like something out of Second Life. And that tight storytelling basically vanished in all that glossy poo poo: most of his fights are horribly arranged and he gets too hung up with the body-switching that it becomes hard to follow. At one point, Motoko Aramaki is in another alias, Chroma, who is in VR, and is temporarily taking over a random policewoman's cyberbody to achieve an objective. Despite that, I would like the GITS animated franchise to tackle Man-Machine Interface, largely because there's ideas that Shirow mentions but leaves hanging, as well as get away from the same stories with Section 9, because you can only mine it so far. That first chapter where she meets with the Doctor presents so many interesting scenarios, such as "who is the Doctor?" and the compensation the Doctor asks for providing Motoko some tech basically stopping a ethnically-motivated coup that never gets brought up after that. It could have been an entire manga if not a single chapter. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Apr 21, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 00:12
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Wow. I'm pleasantly surprised to see a lot of people who know more about Ghost in the Shell here than I do. Though I imagine there's a wide variety of opinion about whether or not this movie should have been made and how, it's a good feeling that not everybody who used to love the movie/shows/manga is either completely disinterested these years later or smothered in earth. Nice warm feeling. Let's do hold the people responsible, whatever the outcome. As many have said, this here's a litmus test for how they're going to try for Akira - the holy of holies. Young Freud, I wanted to ask which parts of the CG people are ridiculing when they say it was awful. To my knowledge the only all-out CG was the weird matrix thing where all the Tachikomas live, or in Innocence when they're in the "doll house". So as a person who has read only a bit of the manga, my experience with the show is: -Original 1995 -Innocence -SAC -Second Gig -SSS -Arise Which one of these is the one people are upset about? Or am I missing a bit of canon here?
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Apr 21, 2016 01:47
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Echo Chamber posted:Either Paramount is lying or the film press if lying. I find it highly unlikely that Screen Crush would make up a story out of thin air. If this is true its not only hosed up its worse than the white washing already going on but hey we are gonna get a GITS movie that is gonna miss the loving point and probably have a completely unrelated story anyway
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Apr 21, 2016 03:32
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phasmid posted:Young Freud, I wanted to ask which parts of the CG people are ridiculing when they say it was awful. To my knowledge the only all-out CG was the weird matrix thing where all the Tachikomas live, or in Innocence when they're in the "doll house". So as a person who has read only a bit of the manga, my experience with the show is: I amended my statement, because I noticed I didn't complete it. I wasn't exactly talking about the animated stuff, but the manga (however, the GITS movie that was "remastered" has a lot of jarring CGI, particular Kusanagi perched before she assassinates the diplomat and most of the stuff with the helicopters). Basically, between GITS1.5 and GITS2 manga, Shirow discovered 3D modeling and Photoshop and began to use it extensively in his later works. The "digital" effects featured in the color sections of the first manga and GITS1.5 were done by hand, either by Shirow or his Zaku-faced assistant, using prior photo composition techniques like cut-out layers and the like. This is what I'm talking about when I speak of horrible computer effects. Just look at the texturing and relatively simple model work. It really doesn't hold up as well to today's standards, especially when you consider this was 2000-2001 when this was made.     Here's a comparison to GITS from 1989-1990 and it's largely hand-drawn artwork. This is the stuff that made Shirow famous, because even Appleseed didn't have hand-painted or photomanipulated color inserts. The 3D work that was supposed to look outstanding is sloppy compared to this.     As well, here's GITS1.5, serialized off-and-on between 1991-1996, which is kind of a bridge between the two. You can see some 3D work but for the most part it's largely hand-drawn or -painted.     And he wasn't particularly groundbreaking with using 3D imagery. Space Adventure Cobra's Buichi Terasawa used 3DCG in his color work just prior, starting with Takeru in 1992 (which looks even worse today than GITS2) and Raven Warrior Kabuto. Nowadays, 3D backgrounds and props are fairly commonplace as many manga artists don't have the money to pay for assistants or time to lavishly detail out in photorealistic detail or collect photos for reference. The two biggest manga that use 3D backgrounds throughout is Gantz and I Want To Be A Hero.
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Apr 21, 2016 03:38
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Apr 21, 2016 03:45
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Young Freud posted:A lot of different stuff Holy smokes. You're not joking. I almost said "well, I remember a lot of stuff in rags like HM that started to use digital stuff (sparingly when the artist was good, usually) around the millenium" but a) lame excuse and b) holy poo poo. The difference really is enormous. Thank Christ Oshii had more sense when adapting the movies. A friend of mine had several of Shirow's artbooks that he would bring to school (because naked cartoon women) and from the looks of things they must've been mostly from the late 90's or so. I mean, first discovering photoshop and stuff like that back then was eye-popping, but I'm still amazed that people were so floored. Like, you're a famous artist in a pretty big, significant country. Yeah, this technology is the state of the art, but it was strange seeing so many otherwise perfection-seeking artists turn into kids fingerpainting. A lot of animators and traditional artists seem to have had that phase too. Anyway, thanks a bunch! Now I'm definitely going to get my hands on the manga - starting sequentially 
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Apr 21, 2016 04:16
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Hollywood will be looking for the rights for a movie based on this in 2030, when they run out of marvel and dc comics. It will have massive advertisements in it.
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Apr 21, 2016 04:50
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Tenzarin posted:Hollywood will be looking for the rights for a movie based on this in 2030, when they run out of marvel and dc comics. It will have massive advertisements in it. *Image of Sea Patrolman, looking like a divesuit version of the Kerebos protect gear from Jin-Roh* WHERE ARE YOU, SCOOBY DOO? 203X
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Apr 21, 2016 05:10
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I don't know poo poo about or care for Ghost in the Shell but the degradation of his art is depressing. Those early pages, especially the one with the space marine cops and the lead dissolving into the cityscape/lights are really great.
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Apr 21, 2016 19:03
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I rewatched some of Stand Alone Complex and I forgot about the terrible CGI in the intro
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Apr 21, 2016 19:58
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Improbable Lobster posted:I rewatched some of Stand Alone Complex and I forgot about the terrible CGI in the intro I remember it being pretty terrible back when it was new. I seem to recall that Second Gig's intro was much better at least.
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Apr 21, 2016 20:00
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Iron Crowned posted:I remember it being pretty terrible back when it was new. I seem to recall that Second Gig's intro was much better at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkMzn4et2U It has a PS1 Prerendered Cutscene feel to it. 2nd GIG looks better, though I like the first song a little more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIqgxeNtl0
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Apr 21, 2016 20:33
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I'm one of the people who has watched the Ghost in the Shell '95 movie 3 or 4 times over the years and every time lose track of what is actually happening and why. Then I try watching the 2002 show and it makes a modicum of sense, but of course again nearly impossible to follow unless you've bought the set. Somehow I feel like it will lose its charm if it starts to make sense to me.
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Apr 21, 2016 20:54
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The intro to SAC reminds me of Tekken and Virtua Fighter.
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Apr 21, 2016 21:56
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Improbable Lobster posted:It has a PS1 Prerendered Cutscene feel to it. Ironically the actual PS1 GITS game had a much better intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0UBycyZb6w
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Apr 21, 2016 22:43
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Clipperton posted:Ironically the actual PS1 GITS game had a much better intro: I'll always prefer the Fuchikoma to the Tachikoma.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:09
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I like the green ones
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Apr 22, 2016 00:02
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