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I remember when Bignasca died of an overdose, and yet people still vote Lega. It baffles the mind. Switzerland is a racist parochial shithole, don't live there.
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May 24, 2016 14:37
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zomgcatsonfire posted:If you live in Bern Bollig, could you get pictures of the "Anarchy Colony" there. It is a building/structure that can be seen from the train into Bern that is covered in Graffiti. Do you mean the Dachstock, like a five minute walk northeast of the Bern HBF? I've been there a couple times but "anarchy colony" seems like a weird way of calling "[un?]licensed independent nightclub / squat". Zurich has some like that as well, like right next to the UBS headquarters in Altstetten at the corner of Rautistrasse and Flüelastrasse, which is primarily a squat but occasionally hosts live music and parties in the bottom floor. I'd be extremely surprised if either one had anything remotely to do with refugees, except in some abstract sense of "yeah someone should support them." Everyone is white and German-speaking. The only "illegals" they have are from within the Schengen zone who just haven't properly registered. I know that one in Zurich has a license to use the property for 10 (-ish) years after which they will have to move out. The one in Bern has been there so long I am sure they also have legal papers by this point. Edit: Oh, you meant that oppose refugees / economic migrants? Neither of those places is right-wing, neither is the only squat I know of in Lausanne which was at the east end of Ave de Sévelin next to some apartment buildings. It got torn down last year or so. AFAIK it was only a squat and I never heard of any parties there. I only went in once though and I didn't know anyone who ever lived there so I might be wrong about its political leanings. Saladman fucked around with this message at 15:28 on May 24, 2016 |
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May 24, 2016 15:22
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I do understand where a lot of the anti-immigration stuff comes from, though. Ironically, the better educated immigrants who come (and, I guess, help the economy proportionally more) are less likely to learn the local language(s) and integrate into society than are the poorer economic migrants from the Balkans. I see this first-hand after having worked at both the EPFL and ETHZ — so many people come through and spend 5-6 years and don't speak a lick of French or German. It's even worse for German, because theoretically people might learn some standard German, but not Swiss German — and even if they do learn Swiss German, they almost never speak it. Among the Swiss I know, there's almost universal contempt for people who come and live in the country permanently and never learn the local language. Ironically, I'd estimate > 80% of the Swiss-French I know don't speak Swiss German whatsoever. It doesn't help that ~15% of Swiss themselves have literally never crossed the Röstigraben between the French and Swiss German-speaking parts. http://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/7706653-plus-d-un-suisse-sur-dix-n-a-jamais-franchi-le-rostigraben.html (can't find an English link for that). 50% of Suisse romande have never been to Ticino (Tessin). I don't even know how that's possible.
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May 24, 2016 15:41
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Saladman posted:I do understand where a lot of the anti-immigration stuff comes from, though. Ironically, the better educated immigrants who come (and, I guess, help the economy proportionally more) are less likely to learn the local language(s) and integrate into society than are the poorer economic migrants from the Balkans. I see this first-hand after having worked at both the EPFL and ETHZ — so many people come through and spend 5-6 years and don't speak a lick of French or German. It's even worse for German, because theoretically people might learn some standard German, but not Swiss German — and even if they do learn Swiss German, they almost never speak it. quote:Among the Swiss I know, there's almost universal contempt for people who come and live in the country permanently and never learn the local language. Ironically, I'd estimate > 80% of the Swiss-French I know don't speak Swiss German whatsoever. If you went on holiday, would you go to some podunk shithole in your own country or would you go to a warm sunny beach?
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May 24, 2016 17:32
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:If you went on holiday, would you go to some podunk shithole in your own country or would you go to a warm sunny beach? Ah-hem.       Ticino is absolutely stunningly beautiful, just a shame there's not much else to do and the locals are terrible.
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May 24, 2016 17:46
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zomgcatsonfire posted:I've also heard about "Anarchy Colonies" is some of the main cities in Switzerland as well as local groups that directly oppose Migrants (and have done so even before the European Union). These are both non-stories. If the "Anarchy Colonies" are just random places where a bunch of anarchists decided to move into like Saladman said, then yeah there are some, but you can find the same thing in any city in western Europe. I have no idea what else you could mean by that. And there are no notorious groups whose goal in life is to "directly oppose Migrants". You could say that the SVP/UDC political party has policies that are anti-immigration/pro-swiss-independence but that's just one of their selling points, if a big one. They do come up with the occasional asinine idea in that regard, and some have been discussed here, but they have been the most powerful political party for many years now and immigration is alive and well and the immigrant quality of life is as high as it ever was.
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May 24, 2016 17:55
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Saladman posted:Ironically, I'd estimate > 80% of the Swiss-French I know don't speak Swiss German whatsoever. I would gather it's 100% for the ones that haven't spent some years on the german part growing up. How are they supposed to learn a dialect that is never written, about which there are hardly any books and which is not taught in schools?
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May 24, 2016 18:03
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Saladman posted:Among the Swiss I know, there's almost universal contempt for people who come and live in the country permanently and never learn the local language. Ironically, I'd estimate > 80% of the Swiss-French I know don't speak Swiss German whatsoever. Among the Italian community, How large a percentage of them claim to speak either Swiss-German or Swiss-French, even if only on a basic level? When French-speakers do visit the German areas, which language do they typically speak? And vice-versa with the Germans visiting French-speaking parts?
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May 24, 2016 18:07
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Kopijeger posted:Among the Italian community, How large a percentage of them claim to speak either Swiss-German or Swiss-French, even if only on a basic level? When French-speakers do visit the German areas, which language do they typically speak? And vice-versa with the Germans visiting French-speaking parts? Very high by my non-scientific survey. The Ticinese are by far the most linguistically talented Swiss I know. I'd estimate >50% of Ticinese under 30 speak at least 3 languages, and more like > 90% if they're university-educated. I don't have a lot of experience though, so maybe I have just coincidentally met all the Ticinese who speak 4 languages. I've never seen statistics on that (i.e. "number of Swiss residents of Ticino who have B2-level or better [language X]" would be a pretty easy poll to run). This is partly because there are very few opportunities in Ticino, and zero opportunities in Italy, so all Ticinese have to move to a different linguistic area to get a decent job. French and German, not so much. I don't speak German so I haven't gotten as good of a guess on that, but many years of High German is required, so if someone grew up in Suisse Romande they will have at least a moderate grasp on German. That said, I'm not convinced that language schooling is all that much better here than it is in the United States, except that everyone who finishes high school gets 7-8 years instead of the 3-4 they get in the States. In Zurich I always ask "Sorry, I don't understand German. Do you speak French or English [said in German]" and if I'm speaking to someone under 40 I can usually see their face drop as soon as I say French then perk up when I say oder English. I've only a single time encountered someone with a not-fast-food job who spoke neither language (a Polish immigrant at the DMV). There's been a big shift in the German speaking part to push English at the expense of French in many cantons, which obviously has led to some friction. Traditionally French was the lingua franca that two Swiss from different areas would speak, but it's been almost wholly replaced by English in the last 20-30 years.
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May 24, 2016 19:47
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poty posted:I would gather it's 100% for the ones that haven't spent some years on the german part growing up. How are they supposed to learn a dialect that is never written, about which there are hardly any books and which is not taught in schools? That's true, but a lot of people have done one-year exchanges during high school, and a fair number have family on the other side of the Röstigraben, and a fair number move to the other side for job opportunities in their 20s, etc. It's not hard to learn Swiss German if you speak High German, or so I hear. blowfish posted:Yeah, why would you learn the language if you're just a postdoc passing through? There's a reason the academic world speaks English and it's not to teach people the local language and prepare them for permanent residence. Yeah, that's exactly it — a lot of people expect to pass through so they just improve their English (since for most PhDs in Switzerland, English is their second language already). A large number stay though, and especially a lot of PhDs stay after they graduate. Then they've been in Switzerland for 4-6 years and don't speak French or German. Everyone learns eventually if they live here so it's not a massive problem, although many people never learn (or -- more accurately -- bother to speak) Swiss German. My uncle-in-law is German, married to a Swiss woman for 20 years, has three Swiss German-speaking kids, and has lived for 10-ish years in Swiss German cantons, and he never speaks Swiss German with his kids at home, even though he understands it just fine. This is pretty common with native German speakers. Also Ticino is awesome. I didn't know they were such racist assholes until I learned what the Lega party was.
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May 24, 2016 19:51
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Anecdotal, from someone who speaks French, German, and Italian - the Italian-speaking Swiss are the most polyglot. The chuchichäschtli-Schwyzerduetchers second, and the frogs last. I don't know any Rumansch-natives.
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May 24, 2016 21:00
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I grew up in Ticino with and American mother and my dad's family in lucerne. Most ticinesi learn either French or German or both, and I had a lot of friends who learned Spanish as well. No one really bothered with English and a lot of my school colleagues went on to do their university in German or French (almost no one goes to the SUPSI or the University of Lugano). At the same time I never met a Swiss German or a Suisse Romande who spoke Italian and their English was universally terrible. I speak fluent Italian, Swiss German and conversational French and whenever I'm in Switzerland I like speaking in English just to see how differently they treat you. Best reactions to English in Lucerne and Zurich, worst ones in Lugano/Bellinzona. Locarno is slightly better because of the film festival but still pretty drat poor. Edit: also anyone curious about Swiss immigration attitudes, watch Die Schweizermacher. It's quite insightful and amazingly relevant for being what, 40 years old?
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May 24, 2016 22:43
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TheImmigrant posted:Anecdotal, from someone who speaks French, German, and Italian - the Italian-speaking Swiss are the most polyglot. The chuchichäschtli-Schwyzerduetchers second, and the frogs last. I don't know any Rumansch-natives. Seeing as Grisons is the only trilingual canton I'd imagine that Romansh speakers would be very polyglot as well (well, and the fact that there's only like 40,000 of them with hardly anybody on the outside bothering to learn their language)
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May 24, 2016 22:49
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System Metternich posted:Seeing as Grisons is the only trilingual canton I'd imagine that Romansh speakers would be very polyglot as well (well, and the fact that there's only like 40,000 of them with hardly anybody on the outside bothering to learn their language) I like how you used the one language not spoken in Grigioni to refer to it.
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May 24, 2016 23:30
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zomgcatsonfire posted:
So I think you're thinking of the Reitschule, which is pretty close to the HBF. I wouldn't exactly call it an Anarchist colony. It's the place to go for concerts at night, and if you go during the day, you will almost certainly meet an anarchist. It is also about a block away from the methadone clinic, which I'm sure is in no way a coincidence. It's an old riding school and if you go there for a concert you have about a 1/200 chance of being in a riot. I left Jura here because the Jura region is the home of what can be considered the anarchist movement. I in no way think that they are behind any sort of racist movement because they're way into inclusion and, more importantly, I think they eschew any sort of officialness, and using Direct Democracy isn't really very anarchist. That having been said, I don't consort with anarchists because I don't want to get tetanus. If you're looking for some interesting reading about the role that Switzerland plays in rich people playing by their own rules, I just read this article about Herve Falciani which was pretty interesting: The Bank Robber I am a bit busy at the moment, but I'm going to look around for some specific, non-federal groups and how they might be targeting foreigners.
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May 26, 2016 22:54
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SedanChair posted:No it isn't. To whom does Switzerland belong if not the Swiss, SedanChair?
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May 27, 2016 05:11
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Okay I'm not going to make this thread a repository of Swiss News, but a lot of people seem to not know that Kim Jong Un was educated in Bern at a rich people's school. This article isn't 100% on the subject, but it comes up, and is an interesting article nonetheless: Kim Jong Un's Aunt has lived in the US since 1998
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May 27, 2016 16:36
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Remember that time when Oprah got chucked out of a high end shop because they didn't think she could afford the stuff?
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May 27, 2016 16:56
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Coohoolin posted:I like how you used the one language not spoken in Grigioni to refer to it. It's what English Wikipedia calls it, so I went with that 
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May 27, 2016 17:02
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bollig posted:Okay I'm not going to make this thread a repository of Swiss News, but a lot of people seem to not know that Kim Jong Un was educated in Bern at a rich people's school. Whoa, I pass that school (Steinhölzli) all the time. It's like a 5 minute walk from my in law's house.
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May 27, 2016 17:24
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Smudgie Buggler posted:To whom does Switzerland belong if not the Swiss, SedanChair? Belong?
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May 28, 2016 02:28
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Smudgie Buggler posted:To whom does Switzerland belong if not the Swiss, SedanChair? All property belongs to all the peoples, comrade!
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May 28, 2016 15:21
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Coohoolin posted:I like how you used the one language not spoken in Grigioni to refer to it. French is indeed the One Language, glad you agree
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May 28, 2016 15:27
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I kind of feel like the Wikipedia article on Graubunden is the only time I've ever seen it referred to as "Grisons" in English instead of "Graubunden" (in English). How to spell "Lucerne" in English always trips me up too, because for some reason English uses the French spelling instead of the German one.
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May 28, 2016 15:41
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Saladman posted:
English uses French or local variants for most cities with multiple versions in Europe, avoiding the German. Milan instead of Mailand, Geneva (Genève) instead of Genf, Venice (Venise) instead of Venedig, Ljubljana instead of Laibach, Vienna (Vienne) instead of Wien, Bratislava instead of Pressburg.
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May 29, 2016 01:53
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Smudgie Buggler posted:To whom does Switzerland belong if not the Swiss, SedanChair? One far-sighted leader believed it belonged to France, Germany, and Italy: http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1926053,00.html
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May 29, 2016 04:18
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Bignasca died in vain; remember this, and smile.
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May 29, 2016 05:07
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Ah, a Swiss thread, finally. The biggest problem with languages is that French has lost and is still losing the importance and daily relevance it once had and the fact that the comparison of Swiss-French and Swiss-German is wrong. From what I (as a Swiss-German) get, Swiss-French is nearly 100% French (you can come from Paris and speak in Lausanne and vice versa and nobody will really know it). High-German ("hochdeutsch") as you learn it in school isn't Swiss-German at all (it's nearly 100% German with some peculiarities), but nobody Swiss is speaking this language. If you come from Berlin to Bern, everybody will know you're German. You can learn Bern-Deutsch, but then you move two valleys and everybody looks at you AGAIN as if you're from the moon. The same if you come from Romandie, you speaking High-German marks you as an outsider. Everybody will try to adapt to you, but sometimes switch back to Swiss-German excluding you till they switch back again to include you for a bit.
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May 29, 2016 12:42
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Mano posted:High-German ("hochdeutsch") as you learn it in school isn't Swiss-German at all (it's nearly 100% German with some peculiarities), but nobody Swiss is speaking this language. Ahh, this really annoyed me. I went to school in Switzerland for a year as a kid, before then I'd been fluent in Swiss German and now I can still only speak a mangled High German. I guess the reason it had such an effect on me was cause I only really spoke english outside of school and in school they were really strict about not speaking Swiss German. Apparently I speak German with a really strong kiwi accent, which is so embarrassing. Mano posted:The same if you come from Romandie, you speaking High-German marks you as an outsider. Everybody will try to adapt to you, but sometimes switch back to Swiss-German excluding you till they switch back again to include you for a bit. I have the opposite of this, even my extended family who should know that I have no problem understanding swiss german (just speaking it, dammit) will slow down and speak high german to me. Some of them are even worse at speaking high german than I am so it actually makes them harder to understand.
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May 29, 2016 14:36
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Apparently I have a Hamburg accent when I speak High German, which is bizarre as the first time I was ever in Hamburg was a couple of years ago. Anyway, it's a good point about the varieties of Swiss German and the mostly uniformness of Swiss French (although our numbers make so much more sense). Ticino is interesting in that regard- the Italian spoken there is Florentine, the most "proper" Italian- if you watch Italian television or films, unless they're specifically set somewhere, the characters will sound exactly like what Swiss Italians sound like. But then if you go half an hour up the mountain, you encounter Ticinese dialect, which is some strange concoction of Italian, Swiss German, and probably a bit of Romantsch. I mean, look at this. http://www.lessico.ch/wordtexte/Luganese.htm
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May 29, 2016 14:58
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Laverna posted:I have the opposite of this, even my extended family who should know that I have no problem understanding swiss german (just speaking it, dammit) will slow down and speak high german to me. Some of them are even worse at speaking high german than I am so it actually makes them harder to understand. That's the other way to see if you appear as an outsider (your talk is sufficiently not Swiss-German), even if it's mostly done out of politeness. Just switch to speaking English 
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May 29, 2016 18:44
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SedanChair posted:Belong? Yes.
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May 29, 2016 23:42
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Mano posted:That's the other way to see if you appear as an outsider (your talk is sufficiently not Swiss-German), even if it's mostly done out of politeness. Yeah. This was me, embarrassing myself in 2013 with my fourth-grade level Hochdeutsch learned at ICS/Zumikon in 1974. Meanwhile, my friend in Kilchberg informed me that Tina Turner was finally able to buy citizenship after fifteen years. It cost her a ton because she couldn't or wouldn't gain proficieny in German. She won some type of tax exemption by laying down US$5-million. Locals were mildly scandalized since Roger Federer gets no such pass & gets whacked annually, just like everybody else.
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Jun 1, 2016 02:14
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System Metternich posted:Sadly, Switzerland doesn't seem to have legislation against such blatant racism It is indeed a shame that Swiss people can say what they want in their own country. quote:so all that anyone can do is calling the SVP disgusting wastes of space and hoping that anyone who willingly supports their xenophobic politics changes his/her mind and becomes a better person for it Even more of a shame is that We Who Know Better can't do anything to stop them. Sad!
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Jun 1, 2016 07:01
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Smudgie Buggler posted:It is indeed a shame that Swiss people can say what they want in their own country. An Australian Trump-fan cheerleading the Swiss far right? If that isn't globalised politics, then I don't know what is
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Jun 1, 2016 10:50
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Mano posted:From what I (as a Swiss-German) get, Swiss-French is nearly 100% French (you can come from Paris and speak in Lausanne and vice versa and nobody will really know it). Calling bullshit on that one. While talking with a french (Parisienne) student in english (cause my french is abysmal) in Bern, I asked here this. And her response was that while talking with each other isn't a problem, french spoken in Geneva sounded very hillbilly like to her. Also to weight in on the Reitschule as I go by it every day: While it definitely was a place for anarchists in the early years and still is the place for the leftist rioters to go after a night out with the police, it is much more a culture place. I mean they get money from the city to pay their electric and water bills, the venues are professionally organized (Dachstock) where you get your tickets online and you can get a nice coffee and cake in the afternoon (Rössli). A lot of teens (16+) go there because it still has the air of anti-authority so me being 30 almost makes me stick out like a sore thumb by being "old".
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Jun 1, 2016 12:43
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Helios Grime posted:Calling bullshit on that one. While talking with a french (Parisienne) student in english (cause my french is abysmal) in Bern, I asked here this. And her response was that while talking with each other isn't a problem, french spoken in Geneva sounded very hillbilly like to her. No. She's wrong and has probably never spent significant time in Suisse Romande. Genevan French is even particularly indistinguishable--they even mispronounce their numbers the same way the French do (i.e. they say "quatre-vingt"). It's like going to Austin or Houston and saying "everyone sounds like a stereotypical Texan here" (they don't--you have to drive quite a ways outside). Vaudois from la campagne, that's another story. Absolutely sounds hillbilly. From Lausanne, Geneva, etc, not so much. E: I mean there is a small difference in accent and a handful of other words, but Paris-Geneva is nowhere even -close- to, say, the difference between say Marseilles and Paris. If she says Genevans sound like hillbillies, she's either totally ignorant or a stuck-up Parisienne stereotype—and in either case would have a difficult time reliably identifying people in Geneva as whether they are locals or Parisian immigrants. It'd be like differentiating someone from San Francisco and Los Angeles. You have to wait until they say "hella". My phone number has all three of "septante" "huitante" and "nonante" in it, and I love reading it off to French and Genevois. Saladman fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 12:47
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Hmm then she was just full of poo poo. As I said, I don't speak french at all and assumed since she was from France knew what she talked about. Oh well.
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Jun 1, 2016 13:14
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Saladman posted:
Belgian French uses the more logical numbers too.
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Jun 1, 2016 14:04
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Helios Grime posted:Hmm then she was just full of poo poo. As I said, I don't speak french at all and assumed since she was from France knew what she talked about. Oh well. that's the last thing you should assume!
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Jun 1, 2016 14:14
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