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Alan Moore has written some pretty fun superhero comics. Supreme, Tom Strong, 1963, his Superman stuff spring to mind (unless I'm forgetting any rapiness in those). He has a wide range that people seem to forget.
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May 25, 2016 10:17
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It's been more prevalent and doe some certainly more gruesome and tone deaf in his more recent work compared to - say - the treatment of rape in Watchmen. Neonomicon, that other cthulthu based one that's out at the moments, Lost Girls, Crossed+100 (although you probably can't put that last one all on Moore) all have rapey problematic issues.
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May 25, 2016 10:24
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DC Universe Rebirth #1 bought and read. Hey thread 
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May 25, 2016 11:09
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Unkempt posted:Alan Moore has written some pretty fun superhero comics. Supreme, Tom Strong, 1963, his Superman stuff spring to mind (unless I'm forgetting any rapiness in those). He has a wide range that people seem to forget. People also seem to forget that Moore didn't invent "dark" superhero comics. With the popularity of books like O'Neill's GL/GA, Miller's Daredevil and Moench's Moon Knight, that trend towards "realism" was already there. Watchmen was written in part as a response to those sort of books, a case of "OK, you want realistic superheroes..." Killing Joke was dark-for-the-sake-of-dark shite though and if people were pointing the finger at that instead of Watchmen I'd be behind them 100%. Heck, even Moore would as he's said himself that Bolland's art is the only worthwhile thing about it. But you're right, people do tend to forget 1963, Supreme, etc.
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May 25, 2016 12:08
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In the climactic issue of next year's event series, Superman is bloodied and beaten on Mars about to die as Dr. Manhattan hovers over him. He thinks of his son and of Pa Kent, and whispers "Jon . . ." Dr. Manhattan pauses from delivering the killing blow. "My name . . . was once Jon . . . maybe we're not so different, you and I."
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May 25, 2016 12:12
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Guess I'll post in this thread before spoilers become okay in the main one. Dr Fate has me curious. The current solo comic is being published as is through at least as much of Rebirth as has been solicited (one of the only series to not be cancelled for June-August.) The kid Fate star of that comic has just met old man Kent Nelson as a civilian, who is obviously going to go into the old man JSA, but the kid wasn't seen at all in this comic, unlike just about every other replacement N52er getting their new legacy buddy pair shown off. That's fine and all since it's probably one of the weaker selling DCYou comics, but it's totally weird that they didn't just cap it at #12 and hand the role off. Dr Fate is a sweet little low key comic with fantastic art, so I'm all for them letting it ride through this for whatever reason. I just have no idea why they would when the plans don't seem too interested in the main character.
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May 25, 2016 12:51
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Disappointed that this book didn't reveal what Batmans shameful secret actually is!
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May 25, 2016 13:10
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ElNarez posted:Dan Dreiberg is a bored man-child who can only get off when he's playing superhero. And, in Watchmen, that totally makes sense, you know, it's a book, in part, about the kind of relationship we have with punch man comics, and the sexual aspect of it warrants discussion. But it's the kind of thing that only fits in Watchmen, because of this total approach Moore and Gibbons have taken. To be fair though, even this much kind of oversells Watchmen's darkness, because Dan Dreiberg is also a dimensionalised character who has kindness and decency in him - the superhero midlife crisis stuff is just one aspect of a fairly human character. And it's not played hard and loud, either: it's on the page, but there's no panel of Nite Owl drooling and slavering with a huge erection as he puts on his costume, Ennis-style. I'm just not convinced by the notion that, even in terms of influence, Watchmen is mapping the same vein of darkness that something like Blackest Night or (as mentioned) even The Killing Joke is. Even its most despicable characters, like the Comedian, are treated as human beings who have some kind of personal ethic or inner struggle, and it doesn't usually delight in grotesquery or extreme imagery. Most of its more outre moments are intended to move rather than to shock, with the exception of the rape stuff, which is definitely a huge black mark on Moore's work generally. (But even then, it doesn't compare to how vile and repugnant every panel with Zombie Dr. Light in Blackest Night was).
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May 25, 2016 14:10
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People seem to be incredibly pissed at the Joker non reveal in JL #50.
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May 25, 2016 15:35
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Read rebirth. It's bad. I'll freely admit that I may be reading too much into it, but it the, I don't know, almost workman/checklist like fashion in which the begrudgingly put everything back they way you want it read more to me like the work of a sulking child. Right down to the need to break something else on the way to their rooms.
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May 25, 2016 15:42
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Dreqqus posted:Read rebirth. It's bad. When this doesn't magically save DC from creeping sales irrelevance it will be used to justify an even more extreme reboot a year from now.
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May 25, 2016 16:13
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Travis343 posted:When this doesn't magically save DC from creeping sales irrelevance it will be used to justify an even more extreme reboot a year from now. Gavok will be so happy! 
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May 25, 2016 16:48
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I also liked Rebirth, but I am a huge Wally West stan so I'm just happy he's back. My question is where all these Flashes will go - Barry has the solo book, Wally will be on the Titans, where does Black Wally go?
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May 25, 2016 17:11
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Finally I can join the thread. Wow, it seems a lot of people in the DC thread hate DC. I read Rebirth and I actually enjoyed it. It seems Johns is addressing everything people hated about Nu52 (no legacy, dark for dark sake) but because it is written by Johns it must ring hollow. Or something like that. Having Wally come back was a nice touch (remember when people were bitching about Wally being done with?) and having Barry realise that he is history's greatest monster was great too. The twist at the ending though, yikes. I know DC has been trying to figure out what to do with that property for a long time, but I'm still not sold on it being shoehorned into the DC. Still it was nice to see a comic that embraced legacy, marriage/love/hope. I am sure goons would have liked those themes too. If it wasn't written by Johns. For DC.
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May 25, 2016 17:14
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Black Wally's on Teen Titans, which is not to be confused with Titans.
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May 25, 2016 17:15
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Madkal posted:Finally I can join the thread. Wow, it seems a lot of people in the DC thread hate DC. The Marvel thread (and the X-thread) aren't any better - goon comics fans seem to be the type who hate everything and stick around so they can bitch. It's like wrestling fans - everything new sucks, but we're still here reading everything for some reason. I'm not sure what people want - everyone complained about the New 52 with good reason, and this is an open and outright attempt to fix that and give people what they want, but it doesn't feel pander-y to me, it feels like DC saying "poo poo that didn't work, I guess we'll try something else". Granted, it's normal to have Editorial Fatigue at this point, and to doubt that they'll follow through intelligently, but this is at least a step in what appears to be a good direction. Endless Mike posted:Black Wally's on Teen Titans, which is not to be confused with Titans. Wait, really? So if the Titans are Dick, Donna, Gnarrk, Roy, Omen, Herald, Hawk, Dove, and Garth, who's on the Teen Titans? Beast Boy, Starfire, Black Wally...Damien? Raven?
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May 25, 2016 17:23
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Got it in one. Damien's the leader, because he just turned 13. (I assume Kory's supposed to be 19, otherwise a lot of the Conner run is super creepy)
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May 25, 2016 17:27
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Gaz-L posted:Got it in one. Damien's the leader, because he just turned 13. (I assume Kory's supposed to be 19, otherwise a lot of the Conner run is super creepy) She's got to be older than that - in order for the Red Hood and the Outlaws stuff to not be creepy she had to be 18+ when New 52 started 5 years ago. I know people don't age linearly in comics but still, she's definitely not a teenager anymore. Even so, there has to be a couple more there. Titans has ten people in it, I imagine TT has more than 5.
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May 25, 2016 17:32
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JoshTheStampede posted:She's got to be older than that - in order for the Red Hood and the Outlaws stuff to not be creepy she had to be 18+ when New 52 started 5 years ago. I know people don't age linearly in comics but still, she's definitely not a teenager anymore. Maybe she's a teenager in Tamaranian years.
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May 25, 2016 17:38
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Super Dan posted:Maybe she's a teenager in Tamaranian years. Go away, Hal Jordan.
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May 25, 2016 17:40
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Something something Dr Manhattan did it.
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May 25, 2016 17:42
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Super Dan posted:Maybe she's a teenager in Tamaranian years. Somewhere a tear runs down Hal "She's an adult on her home world" Jordan's face. edit; Dammit Impatom
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May 25, 2016 17:44
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Madkal posted:The twist at the ending though, yikes. I know DC has been trying to figure out what to do with that property for a long time, but I'm still not sold on it being shoehorned into the DC. This is my biggest problem. If it weren't for the twist, I'd probably be cautiously optimistic about the new direction. As such, it feels like a few small steps forward, followed by a backwards somersault. I mean, anything could be good with a good enough creative team, I just don't know if DC's current stable could manage it. I'll probably continue to read a few DC comics as I did through New 52, but unless I hear some really positive buzz I'm going to stay as far away as possible from anything Watchmen related.
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May 25, 2016 17:56
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Super Dan posted:Maybe she's a teenager in Tamaranian years. What if she's their chaperone?
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May 25, 2016 18:07
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JoshTheStampede posted:She's got to be older than that - in order for the Red Hood and the Outlaws stuff to not be creepy she had to be 18+ when New 52 started 5 years ago. I know people don't age linearly in comics but still, she's definitely not a teenager anymore. Let's be real, the Red Hood and the Outlaws stuff would have been creepy if Starfire had been a fifty year old dowager.
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May 25, 2016 18:08
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Android Blues posted:Let's be real, the Red Hood and the Outlaws stuff would have been creepy if Starfire had been a fifty year old dowager. Well, yeah, it would, but it doesn't need an EXTRA reason why it was creepy.
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May 25, 2016 18:09
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Since there seems to be a steady drumbeat of "I guess some people just don't like DC  " and "Don't you want [character back]" " and "You just don't like it because it's Johns " let me (and presumably some other people who have posted similar things be clear and concise.1) The New 52 was bad. In 2016, everyone seems to agree on this, including Geoff Johns, Dan Didio, Jim Lee, Bob Harras, Eddie Berganza, and the rest of the DC Creative/Editorial braintrust (henceforce, "The Gang"). The Gang have decided they need to do a course correction after the trainwreck of the New 52. 2) The Gang seemed to realize a year ago that the New 52 wasn't working, and so they tweaked it with Convergence/Divergence. The Gang's attempt to fix the New 52 with Convergence/Divergence did not work. 3) The New 52 exists because the Gang had mismanaged DC's comic line so badly in 2011 that they sort of threw up their hands (or had them thrown up by new bosses) and decided They Needed to Fix Things. The New 52 was their idea of fixing things. 4) The reason things were so messed up by 2011 is that The Gang had made a game attempt to make big changes and turn things around in 2010, 2008, 2007, 2007, and 2005. None of these attempts worked. 5) Someone who likes DC as a shared universe can like DC as a shared universe and still be deeply cynical about this latest revamp. The root problem is not how many Flashes are in continuity or if Stephanie Brown was ever Batgirl or if Ted Kord is alive, it is the group of people making decisions. They made the decision to get rid of the characters, now they're making the decision to bring them back. Do people get real lovely at sports fans that are all "I love the Knicks, but I hate how Dolan is managing them" and go WELL THEY WON A GAME LAST NIGHT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HATE THE KNICKS
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May 25, 2016 18:29
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Well, yeah, sports fans totally do say stuff like that, but point taken. I guess I understand being skeptical that THIS TIME it'll work out, and I don't trust Didio & Co either, but they have seemed to change their tune this time. They've never, that I remember, been so openly contrite and "we done hosed up" as they were about New 52 in that last big press conference. And Rebirth is a better starting point than I can remember there being for fixing stuff like that, whereas with Flashpoint everyone IMMEDIATELY knew it was a bad idea, and its just taken this long for DC to get it through their heads. Or maybe my optimism is unfounded, and everything will continue to get shittier and DC will keep spiraling the drain. I just hope that isn't the case, and so far this seems to be the right steps.
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May 25, 2016 18:37
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I take it you've never met a Redskins fan?
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May 25, 2016 18:48
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Personally I am more optimistic about the comics being good, or at least not actively terrible, than about a sloppy in-universe explanation as to why everyone was getting raped and dismembered for the last decade. Just stop writing stories where that happens, I don't need to read a comic trying to explain lovely decisions from the real world. Just make better decisions now. What DC needs more than anything right now is a few years of just making comics, without huge rebranding and restructuring initiatives. I think the creators and the fans need stability more than anything.
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May 25, 2016 18:54
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Endless Mike posted:I take it you've never met a Redskins fan?
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May 25, 2016 18:56
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If Ted Kord is still alive does that mean Max never had that awful heel turn?
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May 25, 2016 18:57
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WSJ may have won the title of worst Rebirth puff piece with just two sentences: http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2016/05/25/how-dc-comics-is-confronting-the-legacy-of-watchmen-with-dc-universe-rebirth/ quote:Is the age of “Watchmen” dominating the comic-book conversation coming to an end? If DC Comics creative chief Geoff Johns has his way, it just might be. Yes, that's exactly why you'd hinge your biggest relaunch in five years on the shock value of introducing Watchmen characters into the DCU. Because you want people to stop talking about Watchmen.
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May 25, 2016 19:09
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:If Ted Kord is still alive does that mean Max never had that awful heel turn? Kind of? In the sense that that whole story is not part of the New 52 history, but Convergence and all the other Crisis level events have shown that those other histories live on and existed in some sort of meta-continuity. So all that stuff still happened when it happened, it just got re-written. But I don't think Max Lord even exists in New 52, at least not yet.
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May 25, 2016 19:10
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glitchwraith posted:anything could be good with a good enough creative team, I just don't know if DC's current stable could manage it. With Tom King, Snyder, Morrison and Rucka working there? Yeah. Pretty weak. I mean, for events, they're no Nick Spencer or anything. e: With the whole 'it's a darker, more cynical world' thing. I feel sorry for all the babies they're throwing out with the bathwater. If I was Greg Pak and Aaron Kuder, I'd go "What? We were chopped liver? Sorry for even trying." I know it's stronger to make a definitive statement than be wishy washy about it, but the only thing new that seemed to satisfy the icon of a past era being something from the last Flash run is HILARIOUS! Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 19:50 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 19:37
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Teenage Fansub posted:With Tom King, Snyder, Morrison and Rucka working there? Yeah. Pretty weak. If one of them end up continuing the story started in Rebirth, sure, I'll check it out. Well, except maybe Snyder. While I loved his early work on Batman, he lost me in the New 52, mainly due to his version of Joker and Mr. Freeze. The others I could see having interesting takes on the Watchmen characters, especially Tom King, but it would still have to be an exceptionally well done story to justify their inclusion into DC continuity. The two universes simply do not mesh thematically. The problem is, we have no idea who will be continuing the story, or even in what comic or comics it will be done in. Scott Lobdell has as much chance of writing Dr. Manhattan as Morrison or Rucka as far as we know. Suffice to say, I am not filled with confidence.
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May 25, 2016 19:50
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glitchwraith posted:Scott Lobdell has as much chance of writing Dr. Manhattan as Morrison or Rucka as far as we know. Suffice to say, I am not filled with confidence. I really doubt that. We'll still hear about him a lot in the DC thread because of DT, but dude has such a smaller footprint now. He didn't even get to be much of a part of the first Superman event after Pak and Soule jumped on Super comics.
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May 25, 2016 19:55
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I read it. It was stupid. Yes Barry its your dumbass fault, I hate you Geoff Johns. The End.
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May 25, 2016 19:58
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JoshTheStampede posted:But I don't think Max Lord even exists in New 52, at least not yet. He's head of Checkmate right now. He emerged again in the last couple of months. I can't quite remember what comic it was.
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May 25, 2016 20:02
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How soon till people say this ruins Watchmen for them?
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May 25, 2016 20:03
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