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Can the leaked pictures be linked X-O? Cause I'd like to see them.
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May 21, 2016 00:24
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Watchmen in DC universe continuity is such a stupendously bad idea I kind of can't believe that DC would ever actually do it. I mean the idea just doesn't work, unless they build like an Earth-Watchmen or something with Manhattan being the only one who can cross universes. Like I really don't like DC but I sorta refuse to believe they'd be this fundamentally stupid.
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May 21, 2016 00:37
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X-O posted:Bleeding Cool is reporting that the comic states that Dr Manhattan is the one responsible for the New 52. What an rear end in a top hat.
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May 21, 2016 01:10
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The spoilers are getting so absurdly insane that at this point I refuse to believe they're real until I see them with my eyes. Congrats, though, DC: You're gonna make me pick up Rebirth, I guess. Oh also, spoilers are saying three Jokers, not four.
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May 21, 2016 01:20
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BrianWilly posted:So we're getting the original white guy, in addition to the young black version who's been appearing? To be fair they basically saddled someone completely unrelated with a legacy name as a weak half-measure to cede to Wally fans. If there's any justification for a line-wide reboot changing that dude's name, Rebirth is as good a reason as any.
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May 21, 2016 01:28
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I mean, there's pictures of the page, Rhyno. You can literally see it with your own eyes.
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May 21, 2016 01:58
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X-O posted:I don't know if it's a good idea if true, but I have to give them credit for just loving going for something they know is going to be super controversial if it is. The thing is DC doesn't exactly have a dearth of "going for it" ideas. This is not something they're in short supply of. If anything, I would say their main problem is that they can't leave well enough alone combined with implementing very edgy ideas poorly. Also I dunno, DC has an obsession with their own legacy, which makes sense, but produces ideas like this that aren't exactly, well, brave or original. I think it's a lot braver to be great on their own terms over worshipping their moments of greatness, especially when it pertains to stuff like this or TDKR or Kingdom Come, all stories that are beloved specifically because they were standalone stories meant to comment on or invert their own legacy. It's kinda missing the very fundamental point. I dunno, maybe it's cause Watchmen was the first comic I ever read, and it's the comic that got me into comics. This feels verboten. Like, I could ignore Before Watchmen because it's basically fanfiction that doesn't ruin the comics I like, but if it's true and they're saying that Dr. Manhattan left the end of the story to build an unsuccessful and much-despised universe that ended up reset within 5 years...that will kinda ruin the ending of the book for me.
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May 21, 2016 02:12
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Two Tone Shoes posted:I'm super curious about everything in that. Like it's such a giant swing for the fences idea that either we're gonna get something amazing or something we can bitch about for years. Or, option three, it's brought up as something shocking to entice readers for Rebirth that is then never brought up again in any capacity whatsoever.
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May 21, 2016 03:29
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Dexie posted:Newsarama just put up their review of the issue and gave it a 10/10. Comes in both the spoilers and no spoilers variety! Everything else sounds at least interesting but making GBS threads all over Watchmen and trumping up New 52 as some beautiful thing cut down in its prime is some gold-plated loving horseshit. I thought about it more and I was gonna say that if Dr. M comes out and professes failure at his attempts at creating a new universe or was evil and created New 52 or something that could sort of work, but an inferior author blaming a superior work for the poor reception of a reboot he wrote the main book for is some impressive, and offensive, cognitive dissonance.
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May 21, 2016 04:11
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Also: gently caress whoever wrote this.
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May 21, 2016 04:15
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BrianWilly posted:Yeah I'm sorry but as someone who thinks Watchmen is largely overrated, I'm just getting more and more pleased with every revelation. You don't have to like Watchmen, but pretending it's not a good comic - and, further insultingly, blaming what was supposed to be a totally standalone comic written as an intentional critique and inversion of the comics industry as the source of the failures of a comics initiative thirty years later that you wrote the main book for, that everyone loving hated - is some mind-blowingly offensive bullshit. Like, seriously. gently caress Geoff Johns for pulling this poo poo.
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May 21, 2016 04:52
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bobkatt013 posted:But even Moore said that people took the wrong lessons from Killing Joke and Watchmen. He was not saying that all comics should be like them. I know, but that's what Geoff Johns did. And then he turns around and blames them for his own failures. He was given virtually full reign to construct the New 52 the way he wanted. His mistakes were his own to make, not the result of a work he ended up cribbing the tone and "realism" from in the first place.
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May 21, 2016 05:14
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X-O posted:No you're mistaken. Geoff Johns wasn't given the New 52 to create. That was Dr. Manhattan. Oh, sorry. My bad.
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May 21, 2016 05:16
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X-O posted:Guys can we talk about the real problem here. What are we going to do with 12 Super-people and 3 Jokers. That's easily 10 and 2 too many. Wait what.
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May 21, 2016 05:25
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Travis343 posted:If the Watchmen angle is just Dr. Manhattan creating their universe, how is it that Batman found the Comedian's button (with iconic bloodstain intact, of course)? Did Dr. Manhattan just like drop it there, so maybe eventually someone could learn The Truth? Did Dr. Manhattan recreate the characters from Watchmen on this world or something? Apparently Dr. M kills Pandora. If I were to guess she leaves the button as a hint to Batman of who killed her or something?
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May 21, 2016 05:27
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I literally started laughing uproariously when the writer described the current DCU as "brighter and friendlier" then Watchmen. Good stuff. Good good stuff.
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May 21, 2016 06:24
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So wait, silver age goof troop joker, weirdo rapey joker, and joker with his face cut off are all gonna be in the same universe? Is DC not aware of the concept of tonal dissonance? Also what's new 52 joker been up to recently? Is he at all significantly different from Killing Joke Joker?
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May 21, 2016 06:42
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It's bad when your medium reboot (if stuff like final and infinite crises were "soft" reboots and new 52 was a hard one) ends up adding even more continuity and confusing retcons. Also how the gently caress is this a good jumping on point for new readers? What 12 year old is gonna read rebirth 1 and go like "oh gently caress, it's one of the protagonists to that thirty year old critically acclaimed comic my parents don't allow me to read!"
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May 21, 2016 07:12
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With the invention of DC Studios this is the exact worst possible time for DC to actually start screwing with their comics output. As long as WB's committed to the DCEU, and they are, there's no possible way they're actually going to start cutting back on the comics side. As long as comic book movies are profitable, and they're the by-far most profitable genre of movie to make right now, WB will need DC to continue making comics.
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May 23, 2016 04:10
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Where are the serifs? Double-fired. I want serifs on serifs on serifs! Fractal serifs!
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May 24, 2016 04:53
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CapnAndy posted:And I also don't get the complaint that they're somehow shifting blame by putting it on Dr. Manhattan. What were they supposed to do, write themselves into the comic? Turn every single character into Ambush Bug so they could go fight their own writers? There has to be a kayfabe reason why all the bad poo poo happened, and Manhattan is somehow an even more blatant stand-in for the writers than the Monitors or Unknown Men ever were. An omnipotent force from outside the universe stole ten years of history and all the joy from the DCU because gently caress it, it'd decided to tinker with something that wasn't broken. That's subtext like the sun is a flashlight. Pandora's the avatar of hope and the icon of the New 52. If it was revealed that Pandora failed, or they retconned that Dr. M created the New 52 and he failed, or that Dr. M created the New 52 and was evil and intentionally created it to fail, then the analogy works. As it stands, if the rumors are true then even the apology shifts blame to without then from within. Pandora would've been successful but unfortunately Dr. Manhattan came along and killed her. The New 52 would've been successful but then that goddamn grimdarkness came along and ruined it. It's a disingenuous apology.
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May 24, 2016 18:57
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CapnAndy posted:I can't see Pandora as the avatar of hope because she's the icon of the New 52 and the New 52 was loving hopeless. She's the avatar of grimdark and dumb bullshit. Obviously we both need to actually read the scene to see how it plays, but from my perspective killing her is just a statement that the New 52 failed and is getting dragged out back behind the barn and shot in the face, which is what it's always deserved. But that was the point of Pandora from Flashpoint. She gives Barry Allen the chance to fix what was wrong and to enter the universe into a new, brighter age. Just because the New 52 immediately turned to grimdark and dumb bullshit doesn't mean that as established from the reboot Pandora wasn't meant to usher in a new, brighter age. And considering the killing of Pandora is meant to come across as a bad thing, and considering what Geoff Johns has actually said (notably that cynicism and pessimism has killed optimism and hope), that's exactly the purpose of having Dr. M kill Pandora. From Johns' own mouth the killing of Pandora is not a corrective action, but a dark and depressing one. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 20:16 on May 24, 2016 |
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May 24, 2016 19:21
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Oh boy. The "promising to personally refund anyone who doesn't like a work of fiction" move is the death knell of quality.
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May 24, 2016 19:43
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BrianWilly posted:There are so many poorly-conceived, tacky, outright vile things about the Nu52 that I or anyone else here could name which drove readers sprinting in the opposite direction, but -- and I'm really racking my brain here -- I think maybe four or five percent of them, at a stretch, had anything to do with Johns? His run on JL was really bad for a really, really long time (Apparently it got better?) and set the tone for the rest of the New 52. It was also one of the bestselling books of the New 52 and outside of the BatBooks, which practically live in their own little separate universe away from the rest of everything else, set the creative direction to follow. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 22:15 on May 24, 2016 |
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May 24, 2016 22:13
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BrianWilly posted:I don't know how anything in Justice League, no matter how bad, would've set the tone for stuff like Bar Torr or angry black Wally or the Harley Quinn suicide contest or rapist Amazons or anything like that, but okay sure let's blame Johns for those. Are you seriously wondering how the Chief Creative Officer for the entirety of New 52, and the one who architected the event leading into it, the one that allowed black Wally to exist in the first place, and the writer of the main book of the New 52 (if one considers JL the main book of the New 52), could be to blame for the bad creative direction of the New 52? Even if his pen didn't literally hit the page for all the worst excesses of New 52, as CCO he along with DiDio and Lee were the three main people who determined its creative direction. gently caress, that's Geoff Johns' explicit job - there's an assumption that DiDio and Lee, being co-publishers and all, have to set time with the actual running of the company and its business dealings so their hands on creative are less felt. He's the architect of the New 52. The buck stops with him. It's his fault, along with DiDio and Lee, why the New 52 sucked.
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May 24, 2016 22:31
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Crossposting from the main DC thread (and really, both threads should be merged by now):Toxxupation posted:So, I read JL 50, L and C 8, Superman 52, and Rebirth. So yeah, kinda split on Rebirth so far. I'll continue reading I think, but the Watchmen stuff was really really bad.
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May 25, 2016 21:22
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