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How will you be voting in the UKEU Referendum? This poll is closed. |
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| Remain - Keep Britane Strong! |
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328 | 15.40% |
| Leave - Take Are Sovreignity Back! |
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115 | 5.40% |
| Remain - But only because Brexit are crazy |
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506 | 23.76% |
| Leave - But only because the EU is terrible |
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157 | 7.37% |
| Spoiled Ballot - This whole thing is an awful idea |
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61 | 2.86% |
| I'm not going to vote |
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19 | 0.89% |
| I'm not allowed to vote |
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411 | 19.30% |
| Pissflaps |
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533 | 25.02% |
| Total: | 2130 votes | ||
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Zalakwe posted:Where is the evidence for that? They don't even seem to have an ideology? What is it? Neoliberalism.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:42
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Pissflaps posted:Thank you for this tweet. the tories know how to stab someone in the back
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Jun 30, 2016 22:42
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LemonDrizzle posted:Excerpts from Theresa May's leadership campaign launch speech: http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2016/06/theresa-mays-launch-statement-full-text.html June was bad enough but May is going to be worse.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:42
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Zalakwe posted:Where is the evidence for that? They don't even seem to have an ideology? What is it? course they have an ideology - it's called liberalism
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Jun 30, 2016 22:42
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radmonger posted:Thanks for the numbers -you seem to be agreeing with what I said (or at least meant to say; maybe it was a bit compressed). I'm not a thread-regular Correct Thinker but I disagree with this analysis. I think both here and in the US there is increasing dissatisfaction with liberal centre-ground politics and it's inability to meet any of the concerns of regular people. Prolonged hardship like we've had since 2008 encourages a drift to the political wings, a drift which is currently being harnessed much better by the alt-right. If labour were to try to shift right they'd end up in the lovely tepid middleground promising more of the same, just like we had with Miliband. Shifting to the left is the only way of claiming anything like the anti-establishment credibility which is going to be required in the next set of elections. I still see Corbyn as the best chance for that to happen, and frankly hostile media attention could ultimately turn out to be a good thing for a populist political outsider (see Trump).
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Jun 30, 2016 22:42
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forkboy84 posted:So who is the least awful candidate the Tories have? Considering we are likely to be stuck with them for 4 years. Obviously they are all terrible, but does any of them have any characteristics that aren't utterly awful? Or the charisma of a damp rag, increasing the Labour Party's hopes of winning? Should I be hoping for Gove or Fox? Gove would be best because he's a joke. It'll probably be May though, she's got all the backing and those nice vague promises people like.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:43
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Zalakwe posted:Where is the evidence for that? They don't even seem to have an ideology? What is it? That Free Markets are good, that the public sector is inefficient, that hard choices must be made, that ideology is dead; all of these are ideological positions that put them directly into opposition to Corbyn.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:44
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I don't want to mess up the other thread but that plan was beautiful Pissflaps. I would go along with it.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:45
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MrL_JaKiri posted:That Free Markets are good, that the public sector is inefficient, that hard choices must be made, that ideology is dead; all of these are ideological positions that put them directly into opposition to Corbyn. Didn't the public sector grow massively under the last Labour government?
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Jun 30, 2016 22:46
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LemonDrizzle posted:Excerpts from Theresa May's leadership campaign launch speech: http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2016/06/theresa-mays-launch-statement-full-text.html Seems relatively pragmatic and accepting of some of the unpleasant realities of the referendum. A general election would also result in UKIP making gains most likely, so I'll take the Tories over that any day. Labour aren't in any kind of shape funding, policy or unity wise to fight one either. I suspect she'll be the next PM.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:46
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Laradus posted:I don't want to mess up the other thread but that plan was beautiful Pissflaps. I think it's got a lot going for it.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:46
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Pissflaps posted:Look how much younger Blair and Brown look from the same year... I can't see the difference? Then again, all lizards look alike to me.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:46
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OvineYeast posted:course they have an ideology - it's called liberalism I have to admit that I walked into that one somewhat and it's a far point. One of the reasons they aren't winning is because they never talk about it or try to articulate its vision. Maybe that's because it's so inseparable from the status quo that they can't but I think it's partly because are a largely an empty box now. If they felt the left is where it was at more of them would be there. See any political party that gets a whiff of popularity, 18 year olds in suits start turning up within days. If Corbyn went tomorrow they would still have no vision, their main attribute is inertia. Zalakwe fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 22:46
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LemonDrizzle posted:"No change for the foreseeable future" sounds very much like "no Article 50 for the foreseeable future". Thing is, replace 'the foreseeable future' with 'until next Tuesday' and you have just made a stronger commitment...
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Jun 30, 2016 22:47
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Zalakwe posted:I have to admit that I walked into that one somewhat. One of the reasons they aren't winning is because they never talk about it or try to articulate its vision. Because they cant. They are supposed to represent the working class.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:47
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Could you imagine any circumstance that could lead the Tories to reverse course? Like say, the pound dropping to $0.80 dollars, or half the city decamping to Paris?
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Jun 30, 2016 22:48
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Pissflaps posted:Didn't the public sector grow massively under the last Labour government? Spending on what would traditionally be called the public sector went up massively, but a vast, vast, vast amount of money went into private hands through PPPs and the like.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:48
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TheRat posted:Because they cant. They are supposed to represent the working class. Care to quote a bit more of that? I did say that in the very next line.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:49
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JeffersonClay posted:I had no idea. So who cares if Corbyn got 60% of the vote in the last labour leadership election if less than 2% of the electorate voted? But the issue is exactly as you point out, i think it would be a disastrous mistake to assume that result scales up much beyond the very odd leadership contest last year. I agree with whoever said it was actually a battle for the soul of the party, but only at that level. Once you get out of paid up party members and into the general voters we just go back to "who do I want to be prime minister?". This is why the constant sarcasm about "electability" feels like people trying to pretend the conversation is about something smaller than it actually is. In US presidential campaigns, one school of thought is that rather than current voting intention, the most important thing is a candidate's "consider" score, being the % of people that would even consider voting for them. The closer your consider score is to your poll results, the more polarising you are as candidate as it shows you have a die-hard support and a firm ceiling. Clearly that's Trump this time, with the opposite being someone like Ben Carson who almost everyone could hypothetically imagine themself, under a specific set of circumstances, with no better options, begrudgingly being okay with voting for. So I think consider score might be Corbyns problem. P.s are the lib dems positioning themselves as the single issue party for voting down Brexit? I think that will actually work out getting then a massive vote boost.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:49
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ShredsYouSay posted:Could you imagine any circumstance that could lead the Tories to reverse course? the problem si leave voters don't care about this. they care about no immigrants/loving everyone else over
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Jun 30, 2016 22:49
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forkboy84 posted:So who is the least awful candidate the Tories have? Considering we are likely to be stuck with them for 4 years. Obviously they are all terrible, but does any of them have any characteristics that aren't utterly awful? Or the charisma of a damp rag, increasing the Labour Party's hopes of winning? Should I be hoping for Gove or Fox? Anyone but Fox. I would say, "thankfully he doesn't stand a chance" but I don't want to further curse this already fragile reality.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:50
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Chair In A Basket posted:hahahaha how in the gently caress is that little melty face gently caress gove only 48 
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Jun 30, 2016 22:51
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ShredsYouSay posted:Could you imagine any circumstance that could lead the Tories to reverse course? Would require a leadership change. The next leader to come along has to honour the result. The one after that could though. Cameron should have got ahead of the narrative when the results came in and said that after such a split decision he'd need to go back to Brussels for more stuff. He didn't, and the BBC using words like 'decisive' didn't help so now we're stuck with Brexit as an inevitable thing.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:51
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Spending on what would traditionally be called the public sector went up massively, but a vast, vast, vast amount of money went into private hands through PPPs and the like. First relevant graph I came across but it's clear that public sector employment went up a lot under Blair and Brown. Seems counter intuitive to say they were somehow anti public sector? 
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Jun 30, 2016 22:51
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people itt need to accept brexit is happening. i might well be wrong but the fact is that its political suicide either way but especially to ignore the referendum
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Jun 30, 2016 22:53
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Jose posted:people itt need to accept brexit is happening. i might well be wrong but the fact is that its political suicide either way but especially to ignore the referendum I've posted my Brexit Avoidance Plan (BAP) in the Brexit thread.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:53
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Ewan posted:I totally understand the love for Corbyn's policies here, and why he is seen as somewhat of a "saviour" of left wing politics and I respect the efforts he has taken to try to bring Labour back to its roots. I agree UK politics having a political party more truly to the left in order to give the electorate more of a choice of centre-right vs centre-right is long overdue and reflect the views of a large chunk of the wider Labour party. The PLP take issue with Corbyn because he's mildly left wing, this has little to do with "amazing or visionary policies." The idea that there's a center - left or right - ground that the party must recapture in order to be electable misses the point. The ideological legacy of Blair and New Labour has a lot to answer for here. What New Labour essentially did was merge together neoliberalism and neoconservatism into one political voice - this 'center ground' is itself the problem here. There's a reason why in opposition to the ConDem coalition and the current Conservatives they essentially echoed the government. It's not so much that PLP are all Blairites or that they have no ideology. New Labour's ideological fallout, the current problem with the PLP, means they simply mirror the Conservative government - because the center ground makes you electable! - so we end up with an opposition that echoes the government. (e.g. "We don't agree with how the government is enacting austerity, but we do believe austerity is the answer.") Unsurprisingly this played into the anti-establishment resentment that helped the Leave campaign - which propagandized right wing populist anti-immigrant messaging with it's appeal to the anti-establishment anger from "ordinary people."
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Jun 30, 2016 22:54
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Pissflaps posted:I've posted my Brexit Avoidance Plan (BAP) in the Brexit thread. can you post it here because i've not read that thread and don't want to
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Jun 30, 2016 22:54
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Jose posted:can you post it here because i've not read that thread and don't want to Pissflaps posted:My plan is simple.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:56
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Ffs. Melanie Phillips, a foghorn not connected to a brain.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:57
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Oberleutnant posted:She's trying to have her cake and eat it by promising something for everyone. Yep. This is particularly juicy in light of recent comments by EU politicians: May posted:But I want to be clear that as we conduct our negotiations, it must be a priority to allow British companies to trade with the single market in goods and services – but also to regain more control of the numbers of people who come here from Europe. Any attempt to wriggle out of that – especially from leadership candidates who campaigned to leave the EU by focusing on immigration – will be unacceptable to the public. It's a good microcosm for how hosed everything is. The public won't accept freedom of movement, but the global markets won't accept withdrawing from the single market. The EU won't allow both. May seems to be saying she'll go with the will of the public.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:57
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seems wishful thinking to me pissflaps that osborne is willingto fall on the sword on his already over career i really don't want brexit but is like the highest turn out ever and it won and needs to happen for better or worse. this is why you don't do direct democracy
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Jun 30, 2016 22:58
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I thought it was pretty well determined that who ever did invoke the article whether it be the Parliament? Unsure on that question or the Prime Minister it was basically political suicide. This was why Boris dropped out because he didn't want to push the big red "Destroy Country's Economy Button".
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Jun 30, 2016 22:59
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If Osborne spikes Brexit using the same lovely arguments that caused it that would be rather good thing of him to do. So it will never happen .
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Jun 30, 2016 23:00
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What does Gillian Duffy make of all this?
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Jun 30, 2016 23:00
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Fans posted:If Osborne spikes Brexit using the same lovely arguments that caused it that would be rather good thing of him to do. So it will never happen . unless he can get massive public support with say a referendum it would be bad actually
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Jun 30, 2016 23:00
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Pissflaps posted:First relevant graph I came across but it's clear that public sector employment went up a lot under Blair and Brown. Seems counter intuitive to say they were somehow anti public sector? It's below what it was at the end of Thatcher's term. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the public sector, especially given years of population growth.
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Jun 30, 2016 23:01
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Jun 30, 2016 23:01
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the amount of voters itt who think its fine to ignore the referendum result bothers me i meant posters but gently caress it
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Jun 30, 2016 23:01
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Pissflaps posted:First relevant graph I came across but it's clear that public sector employment went up a lot under Blair and Brown. Seems counter intuitive to say they were somehow anti public sector? That seems more like an indictment of John Major than anything else. Also that chart isn't normalised for population. I suspect the gain from '98 to '04 barely exceeded population growth, while the "holding steady" after '04 probably amounted to relative cuts. E: Also they didn't even reach the levels of public sector employment under Thatcher, not even accounting for population. Lead out in cuffs fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jun 30, 2016 |
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Jun 30, 2016 23:01
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