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I was raised as a Christian but I as I learned about Evolution I started to have doubts, added to this the rather simple explanations for God I was getting I saw little reason to believe. Then came the fact that I would read aobut anything dealing with the cosmos and I gave up my faith completely, with the occasional indulging in gnostic fantasies. However also at this time I was developing politically and I came upon Distributism and I began to read the writings of Chesterton. Through Chesterton I started to see it was possible to accept a large existence and be a Christian, I moved beyond Chesterton to C.S. lewis, both his fiction and non fiction, also I moved from Distributism to Corporatism and started to read Leo XIII, through this I came to see that it was quite possible to believe in a God, but I wasn't completely sure. But then I took a class on the history of Christianityup to the great schism and it involved reading Church fathers writings andI read Orgien and I realized then that I could believe in a God for God existed beyond creation, we couldn't actually truley comprehend God. I also realized thenthat all can eventually recieve salvation, even in hell, but one must be willing to accept God's love. So I also through Origen realized that I could not be utterly in fear for non Christians, for many already know his love even if they can not describeit yet.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:16
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Rakosi posted:To the people who answered about why they believe in a specific God; why do you not believe in any of the many other Gods? Ah was wondering how long till the Atheist asked "Why don't you believe in Thor"? Well I believe in the God of All Creation. Who is the prime mover, who is not constrained by the universe. Those others are. Rhjamiz posted:I am a radical anti-theist. No, I don't think religion should be abolished or outlawed. You know there is a really lovely war porn about that on the internet. Also its loved by the retards on  .
Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 23:07
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SedanChair posted:Ok then, pick another creator god and tell us why you don't believe in them. Or, if you have the good faith in you, understand the motivation behind the question "why don't you believe in Thor" as "why don't you believe in cosmologies other than the one you happen to have been raised in and socialized to believe." Well thats simple. The Trinity is the true realization of the prime mover. Also I was reading early Christian texts for the reason I came to believe in the Trinity not anything written in the Episcopal church. Also to the athiest suggesting that Subyng posted:
2. Being that a religious person believes God is, has , and always will be there they would not be surprised to see what they see as the truth return. 3. You know one can use the same argument about philosophy. Should we get rid of Philosophy? Subyng posted:Embracing science, reason, and logic does not mean living your life to the exclusion of everything else. Yeah most relgious people don't believe you don't need to understand science or reason to fallow religion. Most of us see those as part of the divine order.
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Jun 19, 2016 00:23
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Noam Chomsky posted:lol @ people in this thread mistaking their subconscious, inner monologue, and/or a hallucination for God. 
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Jun 19, 2016 00:27
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Subyng posted:Not sure if you're trolling because this entire post is a non sequiter. Must just be that the overabundance Euphoria can lead to one not being able to register a argument.
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Jun 19, 2016 00:33
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Noam Chomsky posted:lol @ the neckbeard defense Well if it's the shoe fits. I do love that we've once again turned into the typical r/atheist circle jerk. "All you theists are delusional. We are superior".
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Jun 19, 2016 03:59
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Noam Chomsky posted:i don't think i'm superior to religious people. i just think i'm aware of, in a rudimentary way, how our brains work and that our brains are capable of tricking us into believing that everything we're seeing and hearing is real, even if it isn't. Well using that argument we may as well agree with Elon Musk.
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Jun 19, 2016 04:23
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Ah there's the internet religious discussion I was waiting to pop up. I think we hit all the high notes, only religious because you were raised that way, religion is just stupid monkey brains ascribing divine origin to hormone shifts, religious people are hallucinating crazies. Yea, think we got em all, alrighty we can pack it in. Noam, my dude, wanna send us off with one final smug comment about how easy it is to be religious that's an always smooth blend of pity and superiority to pretend your choices somehow inherently have more meaning in a chaotic world? Uh oh. Now the atheists are going to rant about how they shouldn't have to be nice to delusional people. I also love how we're debating a guy who named him self for an apologist of the Khmer Rouge .
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Jun 19, 2016 15:40
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Noam Chomsky posted:which is only brought up by the usual suspects to criticize chompsky while they cry crocodile tears. nobody cares about it except those interested in dismissing chomsky out of hand, kind of like you're doing. Well I could also bring up that taking two classes in psychology doesn't make one an expert at all. No matter how many ties you claim otherwise. Also this is far from the only thread where people have taken issue with you idolizing a genocide denier.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:40
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Noam Chomsky posted:does tying to upset me make you feel better about your religion? some religious beliefs you have there, so fragile that lowly forums poster noam "genocide denier" chomsky can get you tied up in knots over them. Hey the fact you don't actually have any expertise in psychology, and can only go "Lol you're delusional" kind of is telling you don't have anything to add.Also I know atheist posters have called you out for your name and avatar as well. Sorry if reality triggers you.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:00
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Noam Chomsky posted:i guess i haven't seen or can't remember anyone who's mentioned my av before. who cares, anyway? Can you explain how believing God is in anyway like someone hearing voices telling them constantly. "That guy is watching you, he is going to kill you". Please do. otherwise at the moment it just looks like your trying to justify your reddit atheism you had two semesters of psychology.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:56
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OwlFancier posted:That... would appear to fit the description of someone who believes that everything they do is judged by someone who is omniscient and who will make them suffer greatly if they displease the person watching. Yeah and sorry if your upbringing was lovely but most religious people don't feel that way.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:16
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OwlFancier posted:Well no I assume you probably don't feel that way but it is sort of mechanically what is espoused by most forms of Christianity. I would imagine that you probably think of it more positively but you asked for why it would be similar. Functionally, it is. Actually that isn't now I know you think because you were part of a lovely form of Christianity all must be like it but you see all are not like that. But then most atheist do have a lack of actual experience of the world when they justify attacking others.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:28
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OwlFancier posted:I can't say I'm aware of any forms of Christianity off the top of my head that don't espouse that God sets forth rules for how you should live, knows if you break them, and determines what sort of afterlife and possibly favor while alive you'll receive based on your adherence to his rules. Wait so how is that compared to "That man who walks by me everyday, is judging me, so is that women, I know she talks about me behind my back". Come on explain how someone gooing through that day in and day out is compared to. "You know its probably a good idea I give that homeless man some money as Jesus said., maybe its not a good thing for me to be using porn so much, maybe I could do something else as this isn't good for me as I am dedicating myself to lusting after others. Yes you have people who think they should suddenly become Judge Dreed, but then so do marxists, and libertarians, or are they just like a schizophrenic as well?
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Jun 19, 2016 20:37
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OwlFancier posted:Well I was taught that god is literally with you all the time, and even absent that, it means you're living your life being judged by an omnipresent force and that dictates a pretty sizeable portion of your actions. Alternatively you could view a religious community as inherently judging of your actions as well though I would hope that generally they wouldn't take it upon themselves to start meting out punishments.
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Jun 19, 2016 21:06
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OwlFancier posted:You asked how they are alike, that is my answer. I prefer creator. Ruler implies the mover is part of creation.
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Jun 19, 2016 22:12
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OwlFancier posted:That doesn't really answer as to why they need to happen to begin with. Well thats because humans are not pure slaves choose to allow evil to happen. We give in to the temptation of evil. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 02:28
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OwlFancier posted:Erm, no I think the overwhelming majority of people on the receiving end of suffering absolutely do not 'give in to the temptation of evil' and absolutely do not deserve to suffer. God has the capacity to do something about that. When did I say that suffering was caused because you were evil? I said evil as a whole causes suffering to befall mankind. Another notch on my Athiest bingocard, misrepresentation. Subyng posted:Believing in God because you "saw" him or he "spoke to you" or you "had a vision" is comparable to someone suffering from delusions because in both cases, there is no evidence to support that their experiences were real.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:20
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OwlFancier posted:You don't think evil causes suffering but you think suffering causes evil to happen. Suffering comes from evil. Man as a whole commits evil.
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Jun 20, 2016 03:57
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Rakosi posted:So what about bone cancer in children? Seems like God could have very easily made a world without that little gift in it. Ah yes, so the Serial killer would have always murdered right? You know the argument that they have no compulsion could be used to suggest we shouldn't be angry when they murder right? ALso it seems like your arguing God should turn us into slaves. Its always funny when Athiests admit what they really want is God to just turn them into unthinking drones. OwlFancier posted:O...kay... I'm still not sure I follow but it still doesn't really seem to address the question of why God, who we know has the capacity to prevent suffering, permits it to happen. I always love it when you get down to it that the Atheists in these threads want God to turn them into Pleasure drones.
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Jun 20, 2016 04:19
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OwlFancier posted:Well, yes actually ideally we shouldn't be angry when people murder, and Jesus absolutely would agree with that. Tt's certainly difficult to avoid it but people are not individuals, they're products of systems and environments which are beyond their control. Even if we believe they have agency and free will, they very manifestly don't have complete free will. A person can only make decisions within the environment of their minds, their information, their learned behaviours, and so on. So you're perfectly fine when people ill others. Also people "act according to their moral faults". That doesn't mean they cannot correct their faults and need to know their are in fact consequences. I guess accoding to you their should beno consequences. Also how does free will justify suffering? I mean unless your suggesting someone would just be programmed to be deliberetley mean to others and can't decide to be nice ever. But then I guess we must as always be drones.
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Jun 20, 2016 04:40
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OwlFancier posted:It's a fairly important question if you believe in an all powerful and just creator. Well it is ethical to not turn humans into drones. I mean would you put a shock collar around your dog or cat for whenever they do bad? Or maybe if you could literally rewire their brain so they only did exactly as you said all the time? Rakosi I don't like the Atheists like you who are assholes. Sorry if I don't always tun the other cheek to assholes. Subyng posted:
Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 04:49
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WHY CAN"T HE JUST LET US CALL HIM DELUSIONAL, AND RESPECT US WHILE WE SAY HE HAS A MENTAL ILLNESS
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I am saying people choose to use their free will to cause suffering. Also yes actually choosing to harm others is a moral fault. Someone hurting others suggest they need to be corrected not told that they can't help being destructive. Also lol at the "well its their environment". Yes we shouldn't let people live in filth and in horrible conditions, but just because more people when they do live in bad situations resort to bad actions, doesn't mean all do. We cannot let a person off the hook just because they had a lovely upbringing, because the argument that that is what we should primarily care about suggests they never ever had a choice. All people have the choice to do harm, if they didn't there would be no people who growing up in bad circumstances who could be peaceful.
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Jun 20, 2016 04:58
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Rhjamiz posted:Except that not all suffering is the result of human action. Disasters, disease, parasites, famine. No moral fortitude on the part of man would prevent these things and yet they exist. Brain deformities exist that give humans uncontrollable compulsions to kill. This is not a moral failing, this person had no choice. Really so your saying that all these killers just cannot help it ever? That there are no others who stop themselves?
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Jun 20, 2016 05:05
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OwlFancier posted:Well, yes, that's exactly correct, we should primarily care that people generally don't have much choice. Obviously everyone can choose to just roll over and die at any time without ever committing an evil act (unless you think that itself is evil) but that's a very poor choice. It is not justice for one person to have to choose to live ethically in the face of overwhelming adversity while others simply have to try not to be excessively indulgent. No righteous judge should assign the full weight of the fault at the feet of someone who does evil under crushing pressure from their environment to do so, and nobody concerned with ending evil in the world should rationally say "you just need to try harder" instead of first focusing on the environmental pressures which drive people to be destructive.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:09
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Subyng posted:Apparently your definition of rear end in a top hat is "person who responds with reasoned arguments". Yeah if you and Rakosi think you've been presenting reasoned arguments, I hate to see what you think arguing in bad faith is. Also I see you edited your comment and actually ended up proving my point further, thank you. OwlFancier posted:The judge should do what they have to to prevent the commission of further crime. More holistically, every individual should desire systemic change to prevent rape throughout society. Punishment alone obviously is not sufficient, nor rehabilitative, and again, ignores the environmental pressure which contributes overwhelmingly to evil acts. A rapist is not merely an individual choosing to rape, they are the society which minimizes the evil of rape and denigrates women, they are the people who failed to instill the proper understanding of sex and consent in the rapist. The fault lies in many places, not merely an individual deciding out of nowhere to just be evil. Really how does free will, say numerous people deciding they want to scapegoat another group for their problem and wanting to murder them, in the belief that they;ll solve their problems from mass murder explained by free will? The problem of evil is mans choice to commit evil against their fellow men. Also as I said earler na bad upbringing never justifies bad actions. Yes we should endeavor against evil that infects a society but that doesn't mean we excuse others who hurt. We should never excuse that. Yes we should endeavor to reform when we can but their are certain actions that are very hard to forgive. Rhjamiz posted:I noticed you just ignored everything you didn't have an answer for, but sure. Well if they can't help they kill people we should just let them off the hook right? Also if there are others with the compulsion but who do not act it suggests that they could help it but chose actively to not, so they are using free will.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:33
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Rakosi posted:Don't get sucked into his rabbit hole of the nature of evil and all that snaz, it's a different debate. The guy just completely ignores any question he has no answer for anyway.  Rhjamiz posted:This statement is so wrong it's hard to fathom where to even begin. Do OCD people kill people?'
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Jun 20, 2016 06:03
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Rhjamiz posted:I'm asking if you think compulsion exists. Your position suggests that OCD people are choosing to be ill. Either they are, and thus so too are those compelled to kill, or they have no choice, and so neither do those same killers.
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Jun 20, 2016 06:19
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Rhjamiz posted:This is generally not how compulsions operate. Mental illness is varied and diverse. Probably depends on the time and place. But then they are not committing evil.
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Jun 20, 2016 06:53
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Alhazred posted:So why did God create or allow psychosis to happen, a thing that pretty much eliminates free will? Really all people with psychosis has no control at all over their lives?
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Jun 20, 2016 10:01
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SedanChair posted:Who said all? Just admit that there are plenty who don't have enough, and answer the drat question. Well when you say it eliminates free will... I have to compliment you for being much more polite this time around.
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Jun 20, 2016 10:23
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I love the atheists accusing others of being deliberately obtuse. Also once again no one can ever be "actively malicious". I swear you all must be the ones living in a fantasy land.
Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 18:32
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Rhjamiz posted:There was a different thread in which this came up and yeah, the idea that I will somehow suddenly decide praising God forever in heaven is the thing to do after I die is horrifying. And loving boring. I hope there is existence after death, if only so I can find out answers to questions, fly around space as a ghost, annoying some starship crew for approximately 44 minutes, and hope no space aliens eat ghosts. Well someone said God can't create people who can cause suffering, but free will can cause that as any choice can be made with free will.
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Jun 20, 2016 18:40
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Ah good to see we now have the full measure of rear end in a top hat atheists here. I was skeptical of this thread from the beginning because I knew it would just turn into a atheist. "Don't you know you're just like the mentally ill" atheists. I mean I get it you're all still mad because mommy made you go to church when your twelve but grow up people. I also like how I have now gotten a full bingo card.Rhjamiz posted:... What? I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense. How does this address instances of psychosis or compulsion, whereby some (not literally all or even most) people are made to commit horrible acts against their will? You really think the majority of people who hurt others for some short term gain are doing it because they cannot help it? Who What Now posted:
Being that none of you have ever argued in good faith, in any of these threads I being a flawed person decided to return the favor. Sorry if you can't deal.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:03
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Rhjamiz posted:Please address the question. I suspect most people "compelled" could deal. Also when an atheist asks why evil exists if there is free will, and why doesn't God correct it or not let it happen, that by itself is not free will, as that suggests someone being actively prevented from doing something. Its like putting a shock collar on a cat for when they knock over a plant. That is enslavement.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:15
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Who What Now posted:The small chide notwithstanding, where have I not argued in good faith in this thread specifically? Yeah I think you know very well that you do not actually argue in good faith in these threads. Rhjamiz posted:I don't care if "most" could deal. That is not the point. Your position is that evil is the result of free will. I am asking you to then reconcile why God would create these non-zero instances where it clearly is not (psychosis, disease, famine, natural disasters, etc). Whether or not free will without evil is possible or whether or not it would be slavery is irrelevant. Actually it does, as slavery would be worse then any evil committed. Also I do not doubt that those who commit evil can either in this life or the next see the light. As even when time ends God will let all even the farthest of the fallen into the new creation.
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Jun 20, 2016 19:37
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Crow, what about my Heaven example? If you truly know the presence of God as all who enter Heaven will by God s litteral presense, you will of course not commit evil. Who What Now posted:
God commanded you mess with someones brain so it would be impossible for them to ever think some actions?
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Jun 20, 2016 22:28
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Who What Now posted:So people are unable to commit evil? How is this not exactly like what you're saying is slavery? Yeah I see you seem to think I am a biblical literalist. Nice attempt at a strawman. Also people are unable to commit evil when they truly know God. Most will probably not in this lifetime achieve that.
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Jun 20, 2016 23:59
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mystes posted:Crowsbeak, could you please answer Rhjamiz's question? I did. You guys don't like it. Who What Now posted:I can't know what you are if you won't tell me, so the only recourse I have is to turn towards the bible, which a majority of Christians believe gives at least a reasonably accurate depiction of god's character. So, if God can't take away our free will, are there any limits on our free will? If so, what are they? In the sense that most choose to not live to be Godly. Ytlaya posted:The problem with your analogy is that God, in this situation, created humans. So it's like humans designing a cat in such a way that the cat knocks over plants and then punishing the cat for doing so. In this case the blame ultimately falls with the creator of the cat.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:09
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Who What Now posted:That doesn't tell me why people who do choose to be Godly can't or won't commit evil. It also doesn't tell me how you define what you mean when you say "free will" and what limits it does or doesn't have. Because to be Godly is to choose to not commit violence, to choose to completely dedicate your life to others.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:20
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