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So, the right is pushing the "antifa is at fault" angle pretty hard, and most of the media seems pretty content to at the very least play into the "they're both bad" narrative. The former's interest is obvious; the nazis are cowards and antifa is effectively keeping them from gathering enough momentum to set upon their favorite type of targets i.e defenseless ones. I am curious about the agenda of the media though. If everything was on the level I'd expect condemnation of antifa from a pacifist perspective, or even an anti-vigilantism one, but it seems more muddled than that. Are we seeing this narrative forming because capital are afraid that an effective citizen-based response to the rise of the hard-right will galvanize the left, or am I being paranoid?
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Aug 14, 2017 16:40
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Cardiac posted:Any form of political violence in a democracy ( like the whole of Western Europe) is per default bad. Most democratic countries have a police and a military though, and we use them for political means all the time. I don't think you can really frame antifa as being non-democratic. They're pro-punching violent nazis in the face, but that's more vigilantism surely?
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Aug 14, 2017 17:48
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What is the difference apart from their location and the situation? Things are worse in the US now, but they've been pretty bad here at times too. I kinda figured they were interchangeable as far as discussions regarding their opposition and legitimacy were concerned, but I'd love to learn more.
thotsky fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 18:33
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Antifa, as far as I understand, is a loose-knit umbrella term for a bunch of different organizations and individuals, with widely differing views aside from the fact that they oppose facism. Last I heard, that was true for both Norway and Internationally. If the entire point of the label is to have a general term and banner discussing them in general should be totally fine. What distinction between Scandinavian antifa and American antifa that we have missed is it you find important enough to get upset about? All we've said so far is that they dislike nazis and are willing to use violence to oppose them if needed, and I did not realize that was up for debate.
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Aug 14, 2017 18:47
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MiddleOne posted:We are not there yet. Benjamin? Or if your memory is bad, how about Utøya? These people should not be given an inch. Conditions in the US have given them the numbers and the equipment to act more boldly than the scumfucks we've got here, but you better believe they're looking to imitate. Their own words is that they have to rely on impromptu illegal marches here precisely because they are afraid of antifa. That is a far preferable situation to allowing them to gather and organize unopposed.
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Aug 14, 2017 20:03
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Venstre og KrF kan slenge med leppa om prinsipper og verdier så mye de vil. De har hatt mange reelle muligheter til å vise ryggrad ovenfor FrP, men det har blitt med ordene.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:44
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 I make the same face as Støre reading that.
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Aug 29, 2017 19:05
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Baudolino posted:Voted V in the name of a higher cause. Now i am a filthy liberal too. Try harder.
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Sep 8, 2017 07:19
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The utilitarian in me wonders if a resounding AP loss + a big boost for the actualt leftist parties would be better in the long run than getting FrP+Høyre out of government. Perhaps AP can be reformed.
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Sep 11, 2017 11:30
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V. Illych L. posted:this exact thing happened in 2001, and stoltenberg built the red-green coalition in response Nice to know. I was not following politics back then, just voted SV as they aligned most with my views at the time (and had a much better leader). Insurrectionist posted:"Perhaps Labour can be reformed" - naive Brits, turn of the decade Yet Corbyn is making actual headway, despite the rest of the party leadership. Voters/Members can make a difference it would seem.
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Sep 11, 2017 11:38
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I mean, yes, we might all be hosed and capitalism will forever find a way to tilt the scales just enough that no real threat to it can ever exist, but maybe there is some hope of achieving some temporary period of social justice before draught and starvation makes the human race devolve into complete anarchy.
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Sep 11, 2017 11:43
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Alhazred posted:The problem with that line of thinking is that it fucks over anyone that isn't wealthy, white and male. Short term, yeah probably, but it's not like AP have given any signals of actually improving matters much. AP is the NATO/US warmongering bastion. The talk about humane treatment of refugees back when the crisis started is long gone. AP is in my eyes as guilty of eroding the welfare state and privatizing Norway as the right is, they're just more circuitous about it. It looks like they came down on a "no" to working with KrF this time, but AP sources said they were looking at ditching SV in favor of KrF. Seeing how things are going I don't doubt AP would do it if they could get away with it, and that would in many ways be AP loving over women, seeing as KrF has a history of prioritizing anti-woman policies when it comes time to make demands of their host party.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:07
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big scary monsters posted:Is the OP of this thread still a reasonable overview of Norwegian politics? I'm watching the election with a friend tonight and want to have at least a vague idea of what's going on. I got a Grisette from a local craft beer store (Oslo) so dunno what you're talking about.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:36
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Things are shifting more than I thought they would. Right now _both_ Venstre and KRF are on the brink. It went from 80-89 to 83-86. If both of those parties go under thats a rather big upset, if nothing else. Rødt made some headway. Personally I had hope that they would get a surprising boost and get over the limit, but at the very least it looks like we will get Bjørnie in. SV did better than I thought they would. They're such a poo poo party. Lysbakken has been getting incredibly good press coverage though (Strategy to bleed AP and moderate voters who would otherwise vote Rødt?). e: 84-85 thotsky fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Sep 11, 2017 |
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Sep 11, 2017 20:14
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Crossing my fingers that Venstre goes under the limit. It's amazing that they're not decidedly under, considering they've been guaranteeing FrP for 4 years and broken so many of their promises. I mean, I'm not surprised that their espoused values (and that of their votes) are merely skin deep, but it is depressing to see it writ large like this.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:13
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I wish people would stop saying stuff like that. Norway is Oslo, Denmark is Copenhagen and Sweden is
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Sep 16, 2017 10:17
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Grønland has drug addicts. As the community that used to hang out south of the central station got broken up back in 2004 Brugata at the western edge of Grønland became one of the new hangouts. Grønland has brown people. A bunch of people and businesses moved there as first Grünerløkka was gentrified followed by Torggata. It's where you go if you want a good kebab or vegetables at decent prices. Grønland also includes the Oslo Police HQ since forever. The police and private security presence is pretty substantial. They're not "giving up" on anything. It's all pretty standard big city stuff, but I'm sure if you live in any of the aforementioned gentrified areas you'll be annoyed at having to commute past the people you've displaced and stuff. Also, like 3 craft-beer bars, 2 high-concept cocktail bars, 2 bubble-tea shops and a geek/animu store opened up in Brugata/Storgata this year so expect to have to travel further for your kebab in a little while. Grønland will be IT consultants and partysvenske communes as far as the eye can see before 2020. thotsky fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 19:11
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lw1MrMHQ9o
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Oct 5, 2017 19:57
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Objective truth in politics is dead, if it ever existed. The right/the russians has very much succeeded in making this so. Any such study would be attacked or misinterpreted by one side or another. The right have fewer scruples and are generally have their heads up their asses when it comes to stuff, which is among the reasons why this is a victory for them. Still, even with a ridiculously hypothetical "brown people actually are evil" result, the best you could hope for from a leftist politicians would be for them to simply ignore it. Disseminating truth is not what politics are about, and the left needs to be more concerned with providing a compelling ideological alternative than quibbling over statistics with people who do not give a gently caress.
thotsky fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 09:30
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Check out this authorative work supporting my beliefs, it is like totally science. ... Oh, I never said it was academic, also like social science can ever be science and anyway I was joking trolled much 
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Feb 13, 2018 10:37
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SplitSoul posted:You didn't even read them, did you? Ethnic Danes score worse than immigrants and their children on a wide range of issues that immigrants are routinely lambasted for, including support for religious freedom, gender equality, acceptance of minorities, willingness to pursue higher education and friendships with people outside their own ethnicity, etc. "Parallel societies" is the current mantra of pretty much every party in parliament, but especially the governing ones. The discussion is literally turned on its head. It's also the reason why the average Dane thinks there are three times as many Muslims here than is the case. No point in arguing. If brown people do it it's uncivilized snik-islamifisering, but when white people do it it's common sense nationalism and/or conservatism. Look, he's ready to start an argument about whether basic liberal values should be considered "good" because this poll makes white people look bad. Why waste your time?
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Mar 7, 2018 08:44
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You could afford to to take in 10 times more easily. Taxing the rich fairly would take the pressure off, but if, hypothetically, you would rather have these people die {and that is where we are headed) than let their survival impact your own quality of life even a little bit, then you are no better than the nazis. Claiming that nationalism justifies this point of view doesn't help differentiate you from them either.
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May 23, 2018 16:43
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Rnr posted:Wow. Okay, please post the receipts of you selling of all your white privilege (house, items, etc) in order to live in the gutter, and proof of donating everything to MSF, since this would _actually_ prevent loss of life (albeit very remotely from yourself, but since you aren't a nazi, that wont matter, all life is equal, all things are equal). Having the state provide asylum and aid costs the individual very little, which is why I don't buy the "country first" argument. We are in no danger of going under. The argument implies that one has either bought into the scare mongering of the right, or that these people have become unpeople to you, which I believe is the ultimate goal of the current political climate; setting us up for the atrocities to come when global warming starts having more obvious consequences. It's not like there is some rule saying you have to become an ascetic or do nothing. The guy called himself a social democrat, and communally striving for social justice is part of that ideology. Current social democratic parties might be doing a poo poo job of it, but a historically reformist argument that no, social democracy was all about nationalist individualism all along doesn't hold water. Scandinavians countries should provide aid and take in as many as we can, which is a lot more then we are currently doing. I do not have to cut mine off before being allowed to criticize someone who's saying we shouldn' lift a finger.
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May 24, 2018 08:52
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Retarded Goatee posted:if you deny that it's giving the people who seek to divide non-capitalists a brutally effective toolset - we are going to have a disagreement. Nazis are gonna nazi. If you are insinuating that we should try to appease them you can gently caress right off. The left should focus on promoting an actual ideology and left wing policies, while fighting the right wing goons, in the streets if need be. If we don't all go out in nuclear hell fire, popular opinion should once again leave no room for far-right filth, and all yall can go back to your holes.
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May 24, 2018 12:03
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Also, if you are a nazi and you are afraid of being punched by antifa, feel free to stop being a nazi. You can do that. The would be victims of fascism cannot possibly satisfy the fascists as their slaughter is the inevitable demand. You would think the argument of self defence would resonate with the right, but antifa really frightens them.
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May 24, 2018 15:35
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Rnr posted:Re: antifa - the problem is not punching a legit fascist. It is masked ideologically possessed dumbos deciding who are legit fascists, that is the problem. Eh, most anti-fascist action I've observed in this country has been done without masks, but considering the history the police/state has of colluding with the fascists it's a legit tactic to wear one. Hell, if you're a minority that could possibly save your life. Lots of BLM guys are turning up dead in the US. Also, it's not like antifa people are going to show up on your door for posting pepe memes or trolling comment sections (yet!), so I'm pretty confident people who face antifa violence have it coming.
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May 24, 2018 17:57
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Rnr posted:Well, one quick google search, and I have a legit true to life Berkeley professor in jail for hitting several peaceful Trump supporters, while being recorded on camera, in the head with a bicycle lock, while going as a masked 'antifa' protestor. Can't say I know much about the dude you are referring to, but if you're talking about the "March 4 Trump" thing in Berkley the 4th of March, that was attended by a bunch of fascists groups, like the Proud Boys, at the behest of Rich Black, the organizer of said event. It would be a shame if someone organizing a neo-nazi rally was being insincere about their intentions, and some innocent moderate peace-loving Trump supporter got hurt, but the only hit I got for your exact narrative was from InfoWars so who's to say? 
thotsky fucked around with this message at 21:21 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 20:14
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pigdog posted:tbh an organisation that promotes assaulting people for their views is oppressive and rather systematically so. gently caress off, you are defending people agitating for genocide. Never mind the actual bombings and poo poo, that's enough political violence to warrant a response. Also, antifa is not an organization.
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May 25, 2018 09:12
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I mean, we could have a discussion about how genocide is the inevitable goal and outcome of all fascist movements, but you are asking in bad faith to begin with. I am not about to spend my time posting their garbage, why don't you look around in your Facebook feed if you need a reminder?
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May 25, 2018 09:34
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I was expecting him to say Jordan Peterson tho.
thotsky fucked around with this message at 21:43 on May 25, 2018 |
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May 25, 2018 21:08
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Rnr posted:I mean it would be great to actually talk about issues, but yeah... I definitely agree that you should talk about your issues.
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Jun 2, 2018 09:40
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Beeswax posted:Hey check this out: Rnr had made some bad posts but he's not some sort of irredeemable trash person based on those posts, and people tripping over themselves to win the hyperbole dunk-race are actively making the thread a worse place. The few posts that he makes that are not troll posts or just outright unintelligible just display his awful racist views. He might not be an irredeemable trash person, but he's definitely an irredeemable trash poster. Oh, and the thread was always bad, it's gotten closed like three times already.
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Jun 2, 2018 10:44
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Even now droves of Corbyns own party, and the media, liberal and conservative alike, are trying to bring him down. It's a shame, because it means Labour will be too busy fending off ridiculous rumors too talk about the manifesto that made them popular in the first place. If it costs Corbyn the next election that will be a real blow to the UK, but on the bright side I guess Corbyns supporters will be that much closer to giving up on democracy under capitalism. God knows I have.
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Jun 3, 2018 11:45
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A Buttery Pastry posted:McDonnell is gonna rise up after the fall of Corbyn and institute Stalinism across the British Isles. Good.
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Jun 3, 2018 12:28
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evil_bunnY posted:Corbyn made a bunch of unforced mistakes early on re:brexit and lost a whole bunch of goodwill from the L base + really smart people who weren’t committed to blairism to begin with. All my lefty UK friends are SO angry with him over the brexit fallout. Nah, I don't buy that. His stance on Brexit has been pretty vague and the media has portrayed that as him being wishy-washy on it, but that's fine. It's poop, and there's no point in touching it unless he has to. Labour is in opposition, and seeing as the vote went the way it did they can't really do much except criticize until the ball is in their court. I'm sure some voters would like to see him come out with a firm stance on it, but doing so before they're in power would be stupid as they would stand to lose maybe half their voter base either way they go. The animosity coming from within the party are all neoliberals worried about his socialism, or hawks of various stripes with specific foreign policy agendas (pro-israel, anti-iran etc). thotsky fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Jun 3, 2018 |
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Jun 3, 2018 13:04
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That, and Britain has a long history of exceptionalism to begin with. The papers, even the liberal ones, have been pushing a "us-vs-them" narrative ever since the vote. I think a lot of Brits are secretly pretty happy to have a lovely Brexit outcome as long as they get to see themselves as standing up to a foreign power.
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Jun 3, 2018 14:26
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Rnr posted:blablabla I feel really sorry for your children. Maybe non-transferable parental leave is not that great of an idea if it means a lot of kids will be stuck listening to their dads rant about white genocide. thotsky fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 15:14
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You would think that having "trolling the libs" as a political policy would be shortchanging your voters, but FRP and Trump voters value that activity above pretty much anything else at the moment so that's a pretty decent move for them. Since I don't value the Nobel Peace Price as an institution I'd rather FRP spend their energy on this than something that would actually hurt people.
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Jun 13, 2018 17:59
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Nah, you're wrong, come back after you've seen someone breastfeed in an office chair, my girlfriend said it looks super gross once. Case closed.
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Jun 16, 2018 12:22
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Seriously though, if you think breastfeeding is more of a hassle than closing the wage gap/involving fathers in child-rearing is worth you just might be a pretty privileged woman or just have some pretty dumb opinions. I'm sure that poo poo is a hassle, but we should be looking at the bigger picture. Also, if we're bringing lived experiences into this let's have them from the source and not through the goony filter of the spouse? I'm not convinced a lot of these women would argue the former point even if they did complain to their husbands at the time.
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Jun 16, 2018 12:55
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