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Renfield posted:Well, just having a "lively" discussion with my ex-wifes' current husband, in which he's advocating forced sterilization for women on benefits with 3 or more kids, based on this meme: Why are you talking to your ex wife's husband?
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Jul 31, 2016 19:38
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OwlFancier posted:Why are you talking to your ex wife's husband? Amicable divorce? Joint custody of the kids?
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Jul 31, 2016 19:39
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I just can't really envision any situation where that's going to lead to a terribly productive conversation.
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Jul 31, 2016 19:41
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OwlFancier posted:Why are you talking to your ex wife's husband? As above, amicable divorce - staying in contact with my kid, and he married her about 10 years after we broke up He's posted some knee-jerk poo poo before but with is something else: I've pointed out the factual errors before, with poo poo hes posted, and he's (kinda) backed down... but the less-than-10 people on benefits with large numbers of kids is unacceptable, and should lead to the forced sterilization of anyone on benefits with 3 kids - even though that would cost a gently caress load more than the benefits being paid. He's worked to bring up hes' kids - so anyone who can't should be thrown in the bin. This is a depressingly common opinion among the working poor, and why I moved out of Medway and England. Renfield fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 19:50
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 your kid I guess. Hopefully they won't listen to his dumb rear end.
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Jul 31, 2016 19:53
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Paxman posted:https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/questions-all-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.durajocc1
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Jul 31, 2016 19:54
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OwlFancier posted:
I asked my kid if I was being trolled and he replied "I don't talk politics with them" - and he's at Uni now, so doesn't live there, mostly.
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Jul 31, 2016 19:54
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I disagree with the first sentence, I think Owen Jones sincerely believes the bollocks he does and is also a nasty careerist bellend.
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Jul 31, 2016 19:55
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I think the comment that Corbyn needs some sound bite overall visions is a fair one. Even if it doesn't get much representation in traditional media they need a one sentence vision that can be shared over social media.
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Jul 31, 2016 20:07
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In fact some of the questions in the article are quite fair
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Jul 31, 2016 20:10
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honestly that article just reinforces my general despair in UK politics re: the venn diagram of "people who are competent with experience of doing politics" and "people who don't have lovely opinions" having an overlap of maybe three people
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Jul 31, 2016 20:17
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I didn't read all of it because it failed to say anything at all in the first ten paragraphs.
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Jul 31, 2016 20:29
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It would have been a better piece if Jones didn't spend half his wordcount covering his own rear end, yes.
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Jul 31, 2016 20:36
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Alchenar posted:It's comfort thinking that's self-defeating because it offers a deceptively simple solution to the left's woes that sidesteps having to tackle the genuinely difficult problem, which is that there are a great many people who are well informed and have honestly not come to the same conclusions, and it is on persuading those people that the road to power lies. Is there a way to accomplish this other than some sort of mass education campaign though? Generally speaking the people who care enough to engage in politics publicly always seem to be pretty committed to their existing ideologies. Additionally, the Labour party guidance on doorstepping etc. is that activists shouldn't try to correct or educate constituents but change the topic to an area of common agreement. I was assuming this was because there is evidence to show it's not very effective to try and do so. The only way of reaching those who need persuaded without it being in a confrontational manner seemed to be through traditional media channels, hence my suggestion. Prince John fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 20:40
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OwlFancier posted:I didn't read all of it because it failed to say anything at all in the first ten paragraphs. You should. It is a good article. We need Corbyn and we need him to improve - "answering" Owen's questions (though really they are obvious, and everyone's) is a necessity.
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Jul 31, 2016 20:42
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LemonyTang posted:You should. It is a good article. We need Corbyn and we need him to improve - "answering" Owen's questions (though really they are obvious, and everyone's) is a necessity. They're really stupid questions. Or, if you want me to be nice, they're questions intended to distract from the fundamental things that Corbyn's election to leadership represents by couching the leadership election purely in terms of winning the next general election. It is essentially a rephrasing of the "but what matters is power" idea which has been the consistent cry of the blairite wing since before the first leadership election. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 20:46
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Hoops posted:If anyone skimmed past this post, I urge you to go back and read every word. Owen Jones is honestly the biggest left-wing political talent in Britain.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:00
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quote:But first, it has become increasingly common in politics to reduce disagreements to bad faith. Rather than accepting somebody has a different perspective because, well, that’s what they think, you look for an ulterior motive instead. Everything from self-aggrandisement to careerism to financial corruption to the circles in which the other person moves: any explanation but an honest disagreement. *reads the last few posts ITT* Ah
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Jul 31, 2016 21:04
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Owen Jones' Twitter is pretty great right now https://twitter.com/TheLeninOfLove/status/759702079195652096
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Jul 31, 2016 21:05
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The thing about the questions is that he doesn't have a good answer for any of them either. They're effectively rhetorical. But by posing them as urgent and in need of immediate answering he's rejecting any sort of long term reform of the labour party, which may well provide an answer to some of them. Which, considering he's the result of a long term undermining of a leadership intent on reforming the labour party, is perfectly logical. The unspoken suggestion in all of them is "we need a solution now, we can't afford to wait a second" and of course, the solution invariably proposed is "pivot to the center to appeal to tories and old people" which also, invariably, fails because the tories are better at appealing to people who like tory policies, and encourages the tories to go further right. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 21:13
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OwlFancier posted:They're really stupid questions. Okay - that's true.They are definitely questions being asked to satisfy the overall end goal of achieving a Labour government. That doesn't necessarily discount them as valid though. I will vote for Corbyn in the election not just because he is who best embodies the Labour party I identify with and believe in, but because his platform is worth delivering. I'm not voting Corbyn as a protest vote, and answering questions like "what's the media strategy" are not in fact descents into blairism but legitimate questions. We're discussing a 'mass education program' - well part of educating the population involves a media strategy. What highly intelligent questions would you ask of Corbyn's leadership? OwlFancier posted:The thing about the questions is that he doesn't have a good answer for any of them either. They're effectively rhetorical. But by posing them as urgent and in need of immediate answering he's rejecting any sort of long term reform of the labour party, which may well provide an answer to some of them. Well no, he doesn't have an answer - isn't part of our long term reform of the party supposed to be democratic? Yes, it isn't as useful just pointing out holes as pointing out holes and solutions, but that doesn't discount the criticism. I don't think he is 'rejecting' any reform of the Labour party by posing questions about the leadership. Questions can be answered with 'we will reform X to solve Y and provide Z'. I don't really agree with your assessment of him and I don't know what made you draw that conclusion? LemonyTang fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 21:16
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The 9 questions, for those who don't want to read the  are:1. How can the disastrous polling be turned around? 2. Where is the clear vision? 3. How are the policies significantly different from the last general election? 4. What’s the media strategy? 5. What’s the strategy to win over the over-44s? 6. What’s the strategy to win over Scotland? 7. What’s the strategy to win over Conservative voters? 8. How would we deal with people’s concerns about immigration? 9. How can Labour’s mass membership be mobilised? These are not unfair questions. It's not enough for Corbyn to drag a party leftward, because all that can be reversed if a validity succeeds him. Corbyn or a close ally need to win.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:20
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Is it just me or are adverts louder than regular tv. Something should be done.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:23
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LemonyTang posted:Okay - that's true.They are definitely questions being asked to satisfy the overall end goal of achieving a Labour government. That doesn't necessarily discount them as valid though. I will vote for Corbyn in the election not just because he is who best embodies the Labour party I identify with and believe in, but because his platform is worth delivering. I'm not voting Corbyn as a protest vote, and answering questions like "what's the media strategy" are not in fact descents into blairism but legitimate questions. I don't know what questions I'd ask but my suggestions would be: Reform the party so that we aren't forced to choose between Jeremy Corbyn and gently caress All. Ensure that the party leadership can be selected more directly by the membership including getting rid of the MP nominations as a prerequisite, ensure MPs have to satisfy their CLPs in order to be selected to run in the first place so that MPs themselves are held accountable to the membership for their media actions and voting record. Prevent the NEC from interfering in that process as they have done in the past to prop up the leadership. Organize training for members to help the increased membership become an active force for Labour advocacy and guarantee all members a vote in selecting policy and future leadership, to entice new ones and keep current ones engaged. Utilize the expanded membership to proselytize Labour values outside the current tent, including working closely with unions as they represent another key form of organized labour, work to grow the membership further as a result. If and when the opportunity to appropriate the conventional media arises, take it, but be aware that you can't depend on it because the majority of the media is hostile to Labour's ideals, to successfully court them you will have to stop representing the things we need Labour to represent, and that is not acceptable. "Win an election" is not included in the list because that is not the point of Labour. Labour should represent the policy needs of its membership, and do what it can to spread those ideas in or out of government. If it can win an election, excellent, use that power to make it easier to win subsequent ones by castrating the tory press and getting rid of FPTP. And then use it to enact as much legislation which benefits the working class as you possibly can. But in opposition it is necessary that Labour provides an opposing voice, even if it does not win an election it forces the sitting government to answer to a critical voice, which a centrist party does not do.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:27
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Prince John posted:Is there a way to accomplish this other than some sort of mass education campaign though? That is the answer, it's just that in the last couple of elections Labour have been particularly bad at it. You don't convince people from ideology upwards, you present them with specific, well-targeted policies that speak to concerns they have in their day to day life, with a consistent theme and message that people can buy into and drags them towards your ideology. It's why it was such a massive problem that Miliband's manifesto was best described as a shopping list of proposals, it's why Owen today is saying 'it's not enough to say that you are anti-austerity, you need a specific policy offer'. You gotta poll hard, you have to be willing to follow the voters rather than lead them, you have to do your groundwork. e: the only way opposition parties can exert influence on the Government is by threatening to replace them. Give up on winning elections and there's no mechanism for you to influence policy at all. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 21:30
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Alchenar posted:It's why Owen today is saying 'it's not enough to say that you are anti-austerity, you need a specific policy offer'. Fits well with "it could be anything as long as it's not zero hours".
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Jul 31, 2016 21:34
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What's the difference between a mass education campaign and just being better at politics?
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Jul 31, 2016 21:36
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Alchenar posted:e: the only way opposition parties can exert influence on the Government is by threatening to replace them. Give up on winning elections and there's no mechanism for you to influence policy at all. Literally untrue both in practice and explicitly stated in the layout of our system of government.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:38
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Hoops posted:What's the difference between a mass education campaign and just being better at politics? well one's a campaign and the other is a skill
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Jul 31, 2016 21:39
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pointsofdata posted:Owen Jones' Twitter is pretty great right now your posting itt suggest you're really angry about labour but you never suggest anything that might help
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Jul 31, 2016 21:39
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Hoops posted:What's the difference between a mass education campaign and just being better at politics? The crowdfunded campaign in the mainstream media was being suggested as an alternative - ideally Labour would be doing it themselves, but we might be waiting a while for that. Alchenar posted:That is the answer, it's just that in the last couple of elections Labour have been particularly bad at it. You don't convince people from ideology upwards, you present them with specific, well-targeted policies that speak to concerns they have in their day to day life, with a consistent theme and message that people can buy into and drags them towards your ideology. It's why it was such a massive problem that Miliband's manifesto was best described as a shopping list of proposals, it's why Owen today is saying 'it's not enough to say that you are anti-austerity, you need a specific policy offer'. You had me right up until the bolded bit. It even contradicts your first paragraph about 'drag[ging] them towards your ideology'. If we're just going to follow the voters, then there's not much point in having a left wing party if it's not willing to go hardline on immigration.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:44
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Namtab posted:The 9 questions, for those who don't want to read the I'll have a go. I have nothing better to do. 1. Stop fighting each other and fight the Tories would be a start. Acknowledgement of hostile media environment would be a good followup. 2. Not going to happen while there are attempted coups. 3. Again I feel like the civil war has drowned out any hard analysis of Corbyn's policies. From the little I can make out it's a lot more to the left of Miliband and is built around renationalisation of key public assets. Which is nice. The public still seem to like the NHS so Corbyn really should make it clear just how much Labour cares about it compared to the Tories. 4. This one is tricky. Just how much can Labour do about a right wing partisan media environment? It's just a fact of this country that we have more right wing outlets than left or centrist. The Mail and Express will never give Labour a fair showing and the only policy regarding them is containment. Tabloids survive on 'blood in the water' journalism and essentially make lots of money out of the public's hatred of immigrants: an issue that they escalate to their own ends. Tabloids like their readers dumb and reactive. How Labour can court them without reducing their own politics to reactive nonsense isn't clear. It is more likely that Labour can shift the general public's politics leftward than it is they can get anywhere with the right wing media. It's just too hostile and too interested in the agenda of the Tories. 5. Play the game better. Be nice to the queen and do all the bullshit required. Sing the anthem. Don't go to any parties where Hamas members are present. The papers will still bring the old poo poo up but stop giving them new stuff. Wear a poppy and all that poo poo. Stop acting like a backbencher that can get away with this stuff. Pretend you're the biggest patriot ever. He's currently too nice for his own good and needs to learn how to lie. Lying is good. Everyone needs to lie. The world is too unforgiving. 6. Pointless. Nothing anything Labour does will gain back voters in Scotland. It's up to the SNP to stagnate and gently caress up. The SNP are "left wing" (in the same way Labour is currently "left wing") and has the "bonus" of being FOR SCOTLAND!!!!! There is currently no reason for the average Scot to vote Labour. And Labour has nothing to offer that the SNP isn't already providing. They could copy their policies and go "eh red is a cooler colour than yellow". I don't think it'll be very effective. 7. I think the easiest friendly ground between Labour and conservative voters is the NHS and the environment. The Tories aren't interested in protecting either. Show this to the voters. 8. Not easy without control of the narrative. Making it clear that immigration is vital to the economy and that there are way less immigrants than people think and that, no they are not all workshy rapists. But how do you do that with a hostile media? Bribery? Blackmail? 9. I think Corbyn's done better than any before him in this regard. Now if his own party would stop loving about we could get real movement. Three of these questions I answered that Labour needs to actually give Corbyn a chance. And that's the thing. Give him a year. Actually give him a year unopposed. If he's still as ineffective as he is while his party is trying to stab him then fine, he's not good. So far he hasn't had a chance to show anyone his ability. They've been sabotaging him from day one. From within and without.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:48
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Prince John posted:You had me right up until the bolded bit. It even contradicts your first paragraph about 'dragging them towards your ideology'. What I mean is that you can't tell the voters what they should be concerned about - you research what their concerns are and you build a policy package that's designed to appeal to that. The thing about democracy (and the thing that the Tories understand very well) is that a vote for one of your policies is a vote for all of them, and five years is a long time to get stuff done. That's the time you use to drag the country in your direction.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:51
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OwlFancier posted:I don't know what questions I'd ask but my suggestions would be: Reform the party so that we aren't forced to choose between Jeremy Corbyn and gently caress All. Ensure that the party leadership can be selected more directly by the membership including getting rid of the MP nominations as a prerequisite, ensure MPs have to satisfy their CLPs in order to be selected to run in the first place so that MPs themselves are held accountable to the membership for their media actions and voting record. Prevent the NEC from interfering in that process as they have done in the past to prop up the leadership. Organize training for members to help the increased membership become an active force for Labour advocacy and guarantee all members a vote in selecting policy and future leadership, to entice new ones and keep current ones engaged. Utilize the expanded membership to proselytize Labour values outside the current tent, including working closely with unions as they represent another key form of organized labour, work to grow the membership further as a result. I like your suggestions - implemented they would lead to a better, strong, more democratic Labour party. Especially I think it is important we focus on organizing new members, getting them involved and invested and teaching them how to campaign. I say this as someone desperately hoping that will be my experience going forwards. The media are hostile to Labour's ideals, and yes, we should not ever compromise on our principles, but that doesn't mean it can be repeatedly ignored. I think we can overcome mainstream media by organizing against it (that is one media strategy). #Don'tBuyTheS*n needs to spread beyond Liverpool - we need to continually belittle, expose and fight back against the right-wing press. A lot of us already do this. I really like the idea of a credible left-wing media alternative - though perhaps we should just embrace the Mirror a bit more. Somewhere inbetween the Graun and Morning Star? Maybe that's just an idea for fun though. However - being in opposition, criticizing the Tory party, fighting this government, those primary objectives are in line with 'winning an election'. If that's what the Labour party was focusing on, our polling would be better, our media strategy would be harmonious, and decent people in this country wouldn't be so terrified of the future. I think that even if you take the view that articles like this are exaggerations of truth, you have to acknowledge that the leadership office has made failings. We need to reform the party but we also need the core people in Corbyn's office to get a grip. I think things would be a lot better if you had a shadow cabinet without anyone looking to backstab Corbyn (in the back or the front), because presumably the hostile attitude he has to take with people like Hilary Benn means he is susceptible to abandoning his whole cabinet. One of the brightest things I think to look forward to in the next year of Labour is a shadow cabinet Corbyn/McD actually trust. People like Clive Lewis and Angela Rayner who are 100% behind Corbyn and 100% principled socialists. Regarde Aduck posted:
I think this is what all of us in Labour voting for Corbyn want above all else - and see as a realistic departure point if it doesn't work. Which is why I made the above point about the new Shadow Cabinet. LemonyTang fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 21:54
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Namtab posted:I think the comment that Corbyn needs some sound bite overall visions is a fair one. Even if it doesn't get much representation in traditional media they need a one sentence vision that can be shared over social media. "All power to the Soviets"
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Jul 31, 2016 21:56
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I invite anyone who asserts that those not directly in power cannot influence the government to consider that the tories won in 2015 on a manifesto of All Austerity All The Time and that the labour leadership election started between three people who agreed with that and Jeremy Corbyn. In 2016 Theresa May is making speeches appealing to the left and the only person anyone thinks has a chance of leading the labour party except for Jeremy Corbyn is nicking all his policies, including completely rejecting austerity.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:57
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OwlFancier posted:I invite anyone who asserts that those not directly in power cannot influence the government to consider that the tories won in 2015 on a manifesto of All Austerity All The Time and that the labour leadership election started between three people who agreed with that and Jeremy Corbyn. There are people being thrown out of their homes today because of the bedroom tax. If Labour had won in 2015 the bedroom tax would have been abolished. If Labour wins in 2020 (or whenever), the bedroom tax will be abolished. If the Tories win again then the bedroom tax will stay. Opposition parties can have some influence but basically the government controls the apparatus of the state and the opposition doesn't.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:11
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Paxman posted:There are people being thrown out of their homes today because of the bedroom tax. If Labour had remained a left wing party it is possible the bedroom tax would not have been enacted in the first place. The Opposition is a significant part of setting the tone of discussion and what policies are acceptable for the electorate. The current Tory governments owe a lot to the centrism of the previous Labour government and opposition for the things they do and get away with. The job of the opposition is to effectively organize the opposition to government policy, regardless of whether they're in government. The bedroom tax is loving stupid and the opposition's job should be to raise the appropriate outcry about that.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:18
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coffeetable posted:NICE does all the work of deciding what would be cost-effective to offer and what 'cost effective' actually means. Thanks matey I more meant a kind of founding statement like to each according to his need etc, the nhs elevator pitch if you will
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Jul 31, 2016 22:19
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OwlFancier posted:If Labour had remained a left wing party it is possible the bedroom tax would not have been enacted in the first place. Labour was reasonably left wing under Michael Foot and that didn't stop Margaret Thatcher being right wing. I mean, there's no way any Labour opposition is going to somehow drag the Tories to the centre so that they are less terrible than a Labour government.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:28
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