|
"The Abandoned" (DS9 S03E06) was a really good episode. It reminds me of the time I was helping a friend struggling with alcoholism and it reached a point where it didn't seem like there was anything else I could do.
galenanorth fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Jun 23, 2018 |
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 09:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 00:05 |
|
|
This has probably been discussed before, but I just saw an episode of Deep Space Nine where some sort of high level Bajoran guy was doing some important negotiating with a Cardassian, and he was in a accident that almost killed him. To keep the Bajoran alive and functional, Bashir has to replace part of his brain with some sort of artificial positronic implants. Bashir worries that a special "spark of life" will be lost when he puts these artificial brain areas in the Bajoran guy's brain and, sure enough, when the Bajoran is conscious again he says that everything feels different and off. Later on, the Bajoran has some sort of stroke and is near death. Kira wants Bashir to replace the guy's entire brain with a positronic brain, but Bashir says that if he did that the spark of life would be entirely gone from the guy and that they should just let him die. And, sure enough, they just let the guy die. Uhh...that's a pretty big gently caress you to Data, who apparently doesn't have this magical spark of life because his brain is a completely artifical positronic brain. Granted, Data didn't start off as an organic person and then get changed into an artificial person, he was artificial from the start, but still. It's also a pretty big rebuke to people who want to upload their consciousness to a computer or the cloud or whatever, since they wouldn't have this spark of life anymore either. I mean, replacing someone's brain with an artificial brain is problematic, but the whole story line had a little too much of a religious feel for a star trek ep.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 11:13
|
|
|
DrNutt posted:The gently caress. mods???? The E-D is a bloated whale of a ship, sorry, easily my least favorite of the various Enterprise designs. My favorite two, though, have by far the least amount of screen time: the Excelsior class E-B and the Ambassador class E-C.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 13:43
|
|
|
The Dennis System posted:This has probably been discussed before, but I just saw an episode of Deep Space Nine where some sort of high level Bajoran guy was doing some important negotiating with a Cardassian, and he was in a accident that almost killed him. To keep the Bajoran alive and functional, Bashir has to replace part of his brain with some sort of artificial positronic implants. Bashir worries that a special "spark of life" will be lost when he puts these artificial brain areas in the Bajoran guy's brain and, sure enough, when the Bajoran is conscious again he says that everything feels different and off. Later on, the Bajoran has some sort of stroke and is near death. Kira wants Bashir to replace the guy's entire brain with a positronic brain, but Bashir says that if he did that the spark of life would be entirely gone from the guy and that they should just let him die. And, sure enough, they just let the guy die. Uhh...that's a pretty big gently caress you to Data, who apparently doesn't have this magical spark of life because his brain is a completely artifical positronic brain. Granted, Data didn't start off as an organic person and then get changed into an artificial person, he was artificial from the start, but still. It's also a pretty big rebuke to people who want to upload their consciousness to a computer or the cloud or whatever, since they wouldn't have this spark of life anymore either. I mean, replacing someone's brain with an artificial brain is problematic, but the whole story line had a little too much of a religious feel for a star trek ep.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 14:24
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:The E-D is a bloated whale of a ship, sorry, easily my least favorite of the various Enterprise designs. My favorite two, though, have by far the least amount of screen time: the Excelsior class E-B and the Ambassador class E-C. B > A > C > original > E > D I love TNG but the galaxy class is dumb.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 14:42
|
|
|
Galaxy class with a round and proportionally-sized saucer would be tremendously good imo. From certain angles the Galaxy still looks really good, it's just top-heavy and unbalanced looking.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 16:18
|
|
|
turn left hillary!! noo posted:Galaxy class with a round and proportionally-sized saucer would be tremendously good imo. From certain angles the Galaxy still looks really good, it's just top-heavy and unbalanced looking. Straighten up the angles a little bit and you have the much better Ambassador class.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 16:22
|
|
|
In a way, yes, but the Ambassador suffers from being a quick "missing-link" type design rather than a full iteration of its own. It feels clunky and a little incomplete to me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 16:32
|
|
|
Ambassador class looks great except for the ugly rear end Excelsior style nacelle struts
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 16:54
|
|
|
The Dennis System posted:It's also a pretty big rebuke to people who want to upload their consciousness to a computer or the cloud or whatever, since they wouldn't have this spark of life anymore either. I mean, replacing someone's brain with an artificial brain is problematic, but the whole story line had a little too much of a religious feel for a star trek ep. Leaving aside any completely hilarious jokes about Bajorans being untermenschen, Bareil if I recall had a progressive disease and needed ongoing resectioning. Presumably if he had had just one major incident and had to get a positronic implant as a brain prosthetic, he would have been considered to eventually recover, while a galloping staged brain replacement was altering the old Ship of Theseus so quickly that it would cause injury. I also think you would be consistent if you said "Data started as a positronic brain and is a unique person" and "if someone uploads their brain into a positronic brain, that brain is not the original person," because nothing in 2. there says it's not a person, just not the ORIGINAL person.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 17:03
|
|
|
Bareill wakes up and says something like food and smells are off -- basically they're being processed in a way that doesnt jive with his feeling/memory of them. I know a lot of the particulars are odd (it not being standard Trek, positronic tech), but drat if that little exchange didnt get me thinking on all that Mind Body duality stuff and question the concept of just uploading yourself to the computer hive mind. I chose not to think of it as the meatstuff being a requisite for his soul, but rather that the full prosthesis would create such a sense of otherworldlyness that it would affect his interactions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 17:14
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:Bareill wakes up and says something like food and smells are off -- basically they're being processed in a way that doesnt jive with his feeling/memory of them. e: To be clear, curing disabilities are positive, but they would change your perspective on yourself
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 17:24
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:Bareill wakes up and says something like food and smells are off -- basically they're being processed in a way that doesnt jive with his feeling/memory of them. That duality got shot in the face (pun intended) by the case of Finneaus Gage. Your mind is a phenomenon generated by your body; change your body, change your mind. The comforting thing is that, if you WERE to upload, it's no different than aging in that your current substrate is different than the older one at a given time point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 17:32
|
|
|
mycomancy posted:That duality got shot in the face (pun intended) by the case of Finneaus Gage. Your mind is a phenomenon generated by your body; change your body, change your mind. Phineas Gage is one of those massively exaggerated stories that keeps getting further distorted with each telling. It doesn't help that the main source on him is a phrenologist who very much wanted to fit his observations to his theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage#Exaggeration_and_distortion_of_mental_changes
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 18:33
|
|
|
Kaysette posted:B > A > C > original > E > D I realize the Star Trek thread is the epicenter of all bad goon opinions, but get a load of this whopper 
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
The biggest flaw with that episode was that Bareil was pretty soulless and robotic before the brain replacement. For it to work they needed to have actually cast a charismatic actor in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 19:40
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:Phineas Gage is one of those massively exaggerated stories that keeps getting further distorted with each telling. It doesn't help that the main source on him is a phrenologist who very much wanted to fit his observations to his theory Well today I learned. Thanks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 19:44
|
|
|
Tsaedje posted:The biggest flaw with that episode was that Bareil was pretty soulless and robotic before the brain replacement. For it to work they needed to have actually cast a charismatic actor in the first place. See I've never got this. I found him very charismatic and charming, just in that very understated, and... well, monk-like sort of way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 19:54
|
|
|
Well, does the episode offer any indication that the prosthetic brain implants can function equal to or better than the portions of the brain they replace? If they aren't as good, there would definitely be some loss with each replacement regardless of any distinctions between soul, mind, and body.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 20:01
|
|
|
A holy person acts measured and calm a lot of the time. News at eleven.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 20:01
|
|
|
Hipster_Doofus posted:See I've never got this. I found him very charismatic and charming, just in that very understated, and... well, monk-like sort of way. I hated him my first watch through, but my second watch through currently ongoing I think he's pretty cool
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 20:25
|
|
|
Honestly, if you want uncharismatic and dull, you want Shakar, not Bareil.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 20:31
|
|
|
Nodosaur posted:Honestly, if you want uncharismatic and dull, you want Shakar, not Bareil. Yeah this. That guy did nothing for me, and the actor was pretty sub-par to boot.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 20:37
|
|
|
Grilka is the best lady in Star Trek and Quark should have re-married her immediately
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 20:52
|
|
|
None of Kira's love interests impressed me, honestly. The only person I felt she had believable chemistry with was Sisko.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 20:54
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:None of Kira's love interests impressed me, honestly. The only person I felt she had believable chemistry with was Sisko. Alternate Universe Kira.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 20:59
|
|
|
Pick posted:Alternate Universe Kira. Nana Visitor went on record as hating the show made Intendant Kira a nymphomaniacal vamp. She said she played her in the first episode as a psychotic narcissist, and her creepy come-ons to regular Kira were an extension of her being extremely vain and superficial.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 21:02
|
|
|
I agree that it was cheap and stupid but that's the dark universe all over!
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 21:05
|
|
|
The Dennis System posted:This has probably been discussed before, but I just saw an episode of Deep Space Nine where some sort of high level Bajoran guy was doing some important negotiating with a Cardassian, and he was in a accident that almost killed him. To keep the Bajoran alive and functional, Bashir has to replace part of his brain with some sort of artificial positronic implants. Bashir worries that a special "spark of life" will be lost when he puts these artificial brain areas in the Bajoran guy's brain and, sure enough, when the Bajoran is conscious again he says that everything feels different and off. Later on, the Bajoran has some sort of stroke and is near death. Kira wants Bashir to replace the guy's entire brain with a positronic brain, but Bashir says that if he did that the spark of life would be entirely gone from the guy and that they should just let him die. And, sure enough, they just let the guy die. Uhh...that's a pretty big gently caress you to Data, who apparently doesn't have this magical spark of life because his brain is a completely artifical positronic brain. Granted, Data didn't start off as an organic person and then get changed into an artificial person, he was artificial from the start, but still. It's also a pretty big rebuke to people who want to upload their consciousness to a computer or the cloud or whatever, since they wouldn't have this spark of life anymore either. I mean, replacing someone's brain with an artificial brain is problematic, but the whole story line had a little too much of a religious feel for a star trek ep. Data made the argument in Measure of a Man that if you took him apart he might not have that spark upon reassembly. Also Kirk had his brain transferred into a computer orb thingy so presumably federation tech just isn't up to snuff for a complete brain replacement. Also the man in question is literally the second highest rank in Bajoran religion so I think it's fair to guess that he's a bit religious.
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 21:44
|
|
|
Roddenberry sci-fi wants to show you that the future of "evolution" is psychic powers and becoming a trans-dimensional non-corporeal being that can manipulate reality on a whim, while genetic engineering and cybernetics lies the way of the devil. Which makes it all the more hilarious that Star Trek is always characterized as the materialist franchise and Star Wars the spiritualist one
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 22:32
|
|
|
I'm rewatching Enterprise and really liking it It's a very cozy Trek, not a lot of loud noises or yelling, just the dulcet tones of Phlox and scott bakula Phlox owns btw
|
|
#
?
Jun 23, 2018 22:58
|
|
|
Low Desert Punk posted:I'm rewatching Enterprise and really liking it There's a bit in the DS9 Companion where the writers talk about "who can we cybo-brainise without anyone caring? Uh... Bareil! Nobody gives a crap about him!" and being very surprised to get a load of angry mail from women who actually did give a crap.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 00:04
|
|
|
I'm watching Babylon 5. It's weird but I like it. There's a giant rear end space cricket just hanging out in the smoke machine room what the eff. Many people in weird make up sitting around conference tables yelling at each other so it's peak Trek.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 01:16
|
|
|
Payndz posted:gently caress Dr 'Mengele' Phlox. Braga wrote a lot of pretty good Trek episodes but when he wrote bad ones holy gently caress did he write bad ones.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 01:24
|
|
|
jeeves posted:You mean the uniforms that they didn't even bother to make-- ie: Riker wearing Sisko's one? No, they blew a chunk of the budget making entirely new uniforms that were kind of a blend of the TNG uniforms with the TOS film uniforms and then didn't use them at all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 01:35
|
|
|
HIJK posted:I'm watching Babylon 5. It's weird but I like it. There's a giant rear end space cricket just hanging out in the smoke machine room what the eff. Many people in weird make up sitting around conference tables yelling at each other so it's peak Trek. It is good in season 1, but it takes off in season 2. I'm a fan of Star Trek (obviously) but my great sci-fi love is Babylon 5.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 01:58
|
|
|
McNally posted:No, they blew a chunk of the budget making entirely new uniforms that were kind of a blend of the TNG uniforms with the TOS film uniforms and then didn't use them at all. The sad thing is they’re really not bad looking uniforms. My only nitpick is that they should have had open jacket hems, not tucked sweater hems like the TNG tv unis. I honestly prefer them to the black and grey ones, but they would have looked odd on DS9. Phoneposting, or else I’d link a pic of the concepts.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 02:02
|
|
|
Autism Sneaks posted:Roddenberry sci-fi wants to show you that the future of "evolution" is psychic powers and becoming a trans-dimensional non-corporeal being that can manipulate reality on a whim, while genetic engineering and cybernetics lies the way of the devil. Which makes it all the more hilarious that Star Trek is always characterized as the materialist franchise and Star Wars the spiritualist one Roddenberry was both deeply humanist and very spiritual, and in popular consciousness these are usually seen as contradictory beliefs. Roddenberry, though, believed that mankind had limitless potential to better ourselves and become a higher state of being. The whole arc with Q points to that being quite deliberately a part of Trek. We know from TNG, VOY, and ENT that the Federation eventually absorbs the entire Milky Way, starts sending expeditions to other galaxies in the 26th century, and explores and patrols time itself by the 29th. Combined with Q, the implication is clearly that humanity is on track to become beings like the Q in time, and Q is here to help teach and guide the most promising of humanity as they move down that path.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 02:04
|
|
|
Big Mean Jerk posted:The sad thing is they’re really not bad looking uniforms. My only nitpick is that they should have had open jacket hems, not tucked sweater hems like the TNG tv unis. I honestly prefer them to the black and grey ones, but they would have looked odd on DS9.  It might've worked better in concept, we never got to see it clearly on a person. 
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jun 24, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 02:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 00:05 |
|
|
Bobbin Threadbare posted:Well, does the episode offer any indication that the prosthetic brain implants can function equal to or better than the portions of the brain they replace? If they aren't as good, there would definitely be some loss with each replacement regardless of any distinctions between soul, mind, and body. Yeah, they didn't replicate Data's brain tech, the stuff Bashir was using was based on Soong-style positronics but not up to the same level, and definitely not up to the level of perfectly replicating organic neurological function. Brain uploading is a transhumanist pipe dream anyway, it makes tons of assumptions about neurology and consciousness that may not (and given similar revelations in complexity about genetics and cloning in recent years, almost certainly will not) hold up as the science is further refined.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2018 03:02
|
|
