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Angry Salami posted:They really sort of gloss over the fact that Odo should be seen by Kira and anyone else in the Resistance as a collaborator. The closest they come to addressing it is "Things Past", and that's such a weirdly structured episode that it really doesn't get a chance to examine it in any sort of depth. They gloss over it because DS9, for all its strengths, is still definitely of the post-Cold-War, pre-9/11 time when there was a Right Thing to Do and if you Did That Thing, you were A Good Guy no matter what. So the show could say "yes, Odo worked with the Cardassians, but he wasn't loyal to them, he was loyal to justice!" and very few people rolled their eyes at the time. (And to the show's credit, they do treat Kira the same way, acknowledging "yeah, she committed terrorist acts, but the Bajorans were subjugated and enslaved and she was Doing the Right Thing by opposing that.") I think they could absolutely have told Odo's story in such a way as to emphasize that the Cardassians found him and "raised" him, they were all he knew, so of course he worked with them and needs to account for that, but he still inherently believed their treatment of the Bajorans was wrong and did his best to protect them during the Occupation, and that doesn't cancel it out but it's still relevant. Have some Cardassians openly and loudly hate him for "collaborating with the Bajorans" and undermining the Occupation. Have Bajorans who consider Odo one of their oppressors, because they didn't get to see Odo's kindnesses, argue with Kira and the others who were on Terok Nor and did see them/benefit from them; the S1 finale and S2 premiere arc could have had Winn and the Circle be like "how can we pretend Bajor is now free when one of our worst oppressors still sits in authority on that station?" Really force Odo out of his lawful-neutral comfort zone and make him take a stand for or against his own actions. But I don't think there's any way it even occurred to them in 1993 that they should tell his story that way.
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Nov 8, 2021 14:40
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That would've been an interesting side to see, especially since DS9 was all about pushing comfort zones in Trek, but I don't see why it should be told that way. I can also understand why neither side was particularly aggrieved with Odo. It seems like he kept everyone on their toes, so neither side would feel like he was favoring the other. Maybe the Bajorans saw him as more like a force of nature to be worked around rather than a flesh and blood person who was invested in advancing Cardassian interests above all others. That would fit in better with his "outsider" status, I think. I think he works better as this weird alien who upholds his own code, that just happens to overlap with our ideas of "fairness" and "order," rather than a normal person with Federation morals who finds themselves forced to uphold an unjust order.
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Nov 8, 2021 15:08
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We know how the Cardassian justice system works, we can't really have any illusions about what happened to anyone Odo ever arrested during the Occupation. He didn't have the power to go against Dukat even if he wanted to. edit: Here's a pretty good video on the topic actually. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwtcNhA72zk Shyrka fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Nov 8, 2021 |
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Nov 8, 2021 15:30
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I don’t think it ever came up on the show, but I do wonder if Dukat kept Odo around to make it seem like he was treating Bajorans fairly
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Nov 8, 2021 15:43
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I figured Odo was like a Schindler, he had to work for Cardassians but he saved as many bajorans as he could.
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Nov 8, 2021 15:52
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Marx Headroom posted:That would've been an interesting side to see, especially since DS9 was all about pushing comfort zones in Trek, but I don't see why it should be told that way. Sorry that I was unclear; I wasn't trying to say it should have been told that way, more brainstorming about how it could have been told if it were told outside of the Clinton years. Your second and third paragraphs are right on, I think. By and large, both sides shrugged and went "yup, that's Odo doing his thing. He's not one of us, so what can you do?"
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Nov 8, 2021 15:54
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Dodo
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Nov 8, 2021 15:57
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John Wick of Dogs posted:I figured Odo was like a Schindler, he had to work for Cardassians but he saved as many bajorans as he could. i never got the impression that Odo would have broken the rules like this tbh. seems more likely he stuck with just following orders.
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Nov 8, 2021 15:57
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FlamingLiberal posted:I don’t think it ever came up on the show, but I do wonder if Dukat kept Odo around to make it seem like he was treating Bajorans fairly I get the same feeling. There's a part in Things Past where a Cardassian goon is about to take a bribe, looks up and sees Dukat looking down, and the goon makes a big scene out of rejecting that bribe. So it seems like Dukat was interested in keeping Cardassians in line to some degree, and I can see him viewing Odo as a useful tool in that regard. Also Odo keeps the disgusting slaves in line so it's a win-win!
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Nov 8, 2021 15:57
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punishedkissinger posted:i never got the impression that Odo would have broken the rules like this tbh. seems more likely he stuck with just following orders. The first thing he did was break the rules to protect Kira
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Nov 8, 2021 16:00
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Marx Headroom posted:So it seems like Dukat was interested in keeping Cardassians in line to some degree, and I can see him viewing Odo as a useful tool in that regard. Also Odo keeps the disgusting slaves in line so it's a win-win! Dukat spends most of the rest of his life coasting off that, too. "Yeah, I was an oppressor, but I was a good and fair oppressor and that should count for something!" And he's so deeply and genuinely offended every time somebody points out that it doesn't. It's really good characterization and Alaimo always plays it perfectly.
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Nov 8, 2021 16:06
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I suspect the thread is iffy on GreatestGeneration but they covered Tuvix this week and I think they did a great job with it.
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Nov 8, 2021 16:52
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I enjoyed watching Tuvix for the first time ever and was mostly able to ignore the nagging disappointment that none of the issues it brought up would be satisfyingly explored.
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Nov 8, 2021 16:54
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Occupation era station was such a weird design. Why would you build it so you even needed to put fences up on the promenade?
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Nov 8, 2021 17:11
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Also, the station straight up decides to murder Dukat for running away, so Odo was definitely there to keep the Cardassians in line too.
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Nov 8, 2021 17:13
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Shyrka posted:edit: Here's a pretty good video on the topic actually. I like that video, thanks for sharing it. The show was always clear that Odo was all about order, even if it comes at the expense of justice. It's probably his biggest character trait, and his biggest character flaw. But Odo also gets automatically absolved of the darker consequences of that flaw, just because he's a main character and we in the audience like him. Sash! posted:Occupation era station was such a weird design. Why would you build it so you even needed to put fences up on the promenade? Perhaps originally there weren't Bajoran workers in that section of the station at all, and when a change was made later on for some reason, they just bodged in a few fences and called it done.
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Nov 8, 2021 17:31
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Powered Descent posted:Perhaps originally there weren't Bajoran workers in that section of the station at all, and when a change was made later on for some reason, they just bodged in a few fences and called it done. I just assumed Cardassia really only had the one space station design, and when this one was used to hold slave laborers, they did the quickest "containment" work they could do with the least effort.
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Nov 8, 2021 17:44
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If I remember correctly that occupation flashback episode removes all ambiguity about Odo's role. He was a collaborator. He's not a Schindler, he's more like a luftwaffe member put in charge of Stalag Luft POW camp; not a nazi, but the difference is probably moot when it comes down to it. Kira seems to forgive him more because it was a long time ago, but yeah that's not a very satisfying explanation for her genorosity.
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Nov 8, 2021 17:50
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Sash! posted:Occupation era station was such a weird design. Why would you build it so you even needed to put fences up on the promenade? We've seen there's a bunch of identical Nor stations, DS9 was probably shipped out to Bajor in prefabbed parts mass produced.
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Nov 8, 2021 17:51
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It sucks that the producers insisted on neutering Dukat post-death of Ziyal, because he’s arguably the greatest villain in Trek history
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Nov 8, 2021 17:59
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This is maybe nitpicking a little, but to be a collaborator, doesn't Odo have to be a Bajoran? It seems like Dukat just said, "Hey, weird goo alien, the Bajorans seem to be ok with you and you don't have a power base that can undermine me. Want to be head of security?" This isn't saying what he did was justified or not, but just that he didn't betray his country or side with the enemy, because the Cardassians weren't his enemy. If you want a DS9 Schindler, it's Quark, who sold black market food to the Bajorans and protected Bajoran slaves he hired from the Cardassians to work at his bar.
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Nov 8, 2021 18:22
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He collaborated with the Cardassians to arrest cardassian targets to be sent through the unjust cardassian legal system. You can't call him a betrayer to Bajorans, since he is not of bajor, but he still worked with the bad guys.
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Nov 8, 2021 18:24
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i think this video convinced me odo must die
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Nov 8, 2021 18:29
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Khanstant posted:i think this video convinced me odo must die https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1j_LjRvC1Y
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Nov 8, 2021 18:32
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Khanstant posted:He collaborated with the Cardassians to arrest cardassian targets to be sent through the unjust cardassian legal system. You can't call him a betrayer to Bajorans, since he is not of bajor, but he still worked with the bad guys. Dr. Mora was kinda-sorta his adopted father, so you could argue he's a naturalized Bajoran.
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Nov 8, 2021 18:34
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Khanstant posted:He collaborated with the Cardassians to arrest cardassian targets to be sent through the unjust cardassian legal system. I mean it's unjust by our standards, and I think that's an important distinction. Especially in the series that sentenced Wesley to death for stepping on some flowers. Look at the Klingons. They really do think they're doing their victims a favor by killing hospital patients in their beds. You can see what happens to Klingons rendered helpless and taken prisoner in that episode where Worf speaks out against miscegnation.
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Nov 8, 2021 19:19
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Ds9 had the best VFX shots of all the classic shows
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Nov 8, 2021 19:53
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disaster pastor posted:I just assumed Cardassia really only had the one space station design, and when this one was used to hold slave laborers, they did the quickest "containment" work they could do with the least effort. Two, actually - upright and sideways.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:06
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I thought the show made it pretty clear that while Odo thought he was a good guy and that he was serving justice in reality he wasn't and was just as bad as the occupiers , he was just self delusional.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:15
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Cardassian occupation was extremely harsh, but for whatever reason the Bajorans really respected Odo having his own take on justice and legalism, which I assume differed from the standard Cardassian take on justice. Odo seems to be really into following rules and finding the truth whereas Cardassians are less concerned with rooting out the truth and much more concerned with procedurally punishing people regardless of whether they're guilty or not. The Cardassian system requires that there be guilty to punish, so it decrees that there be guilty so that they may be punished. Presumably that would've led to some kind of clashes between Odo's security and Cardassian management, especially in the later days when the Cardassians would get more desperate to make the occupation stay productive and cut corners. Maybe Odo would've even exploited the inherent contradictions in Cardassian laws since they were written with the expectation of fascist true believers executing policy. I can definitely see Odo making waves by holding actual trials instead of show trials and treating Bajorans like they had rights. Maybe Odo even assisted the removal of occupation forces and the restoration of Bajoran workers to their homes towards the end. Maybe the resistance was willing to deal with the prosecution of terrorists for the sake of those other benefits. Maybe Odo changed how he ran security after that incident. Who knows. There's no real elaboration over why the Bajorans like Odo or his place during occupation and the resistance to occupation. Not really because the writers don't care about resistance movements, but because the writers could not bring themselves to give any fucks about Bajor. The one real direct look at occupation is all about Odo being introspective about the time he wasn't thorough enough for his own personal standards, not about the Bajorans or Cardassians at all. Kira just kinda shrugs it off.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:28
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With all of the gaps in the story, Odo could have been as much of a collaborator as Dagmar Lahlum was.
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Nov 8, 2021 21:47
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MillennialVulcan posted:I suspect the thread is iffy on GreatestGeneration but they covered Tuvix this week and I think they did a great job with it. The musical Captain's log about Tuvix set to "One Week" made me laugh really hard
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Nov 8, 2021 22:16
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BBC America shows TNG like three days a week, four episodes per day. This morning they hit the end of the series, “All Good Things,” and then looped back around to S1E1 “Encounter at Farpoint.” It was pretty cool to watch these back to back (albeit in reverse order.) Seven years apart, both episodes where Q puts Picard/crew to a test, and on “trial,” even using the same set with the grubbily-dressed gallery, Q’s hovering judge chair, and the same dock. Then the final scene, when Picard finally decides to join the crew in their Poker game, says “I should have done this long ago,” and Deanna replies “You were always welcome” Hits me right in the feels. Great final episode.
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Nov 8, 2021 22:55
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FlamingLiberal posted:It sucks that the producers insisted on neutering Dukat post-death of Ziyal, because he’s arguably the greatest villain in Trek history As for Odo, I think he gets away with being a collaborator because he was far less cruel than his predecessor.
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Nov 8, 2021 23:39
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MrMojok posted:BBC America shows TNG like three days a week, four episodes per day. This morning they hit the end of the series, “All Good Things,” and then looped back around to S1E1 “Encounter at Farpoint.” All Good Things is one of the best finales for a series I've ever seen. Just a perfect way to wrap up a long running show and leave you positive.
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Nov 8, 2021 23:43
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There's just this understated brilliance to "All Good Things." It's a finale for an episodic show that has continuity to the pilot episode that brings things full circle and develops character growth while at the same time not changing the status quo by being episodic. Any episode of Season 7 could really take place after "All Good Things" but you still get the sense of finality. It's really perfect. Then the movies happened.....
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Nov 9, 2021 00:18
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The movies also trashed the ending of Undiscovered Country which was the perfect way to wrap up the original crew's story. But no, can't have that. Gotta make a partial original cast cross over movie. And it sucks.
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Nov 9, 2021 00:21
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This is super-nerdy, but I’m among friends here. Not gonna lie, I tear up a bit at Deanna’s last line. I do it every single time. What an amazing end.
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Nov 9, 2021 00:22
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bull3964 posted:There's just this understated brilliance to "All Good Things." If they really wanted to make it definitive and sew everything up with it, when Picard goes back to bed after realizing everything was okay, they should have had him turn around and run into Tasha, implying that what happened over the course of the episode had some ripples through time and some combination of whatever he and/or Q did saved Tasha and she's just been there the whole time for the last seven years, just to fully pay off having Denise Crosby back for the finale.
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Nov 9, 2021 00:23
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Also Armus is an Ensign now
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Nov 9, 2021 00:25
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