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Tunicate posted:the back and forth with spock and mccoy comes across as friendly bantering I dunno, "One is my name, the other is not" is a pretty good data slam. Also the main point of contention with that episode in particular isn't so much her interaction with data, so much as it supports her refusal to accept technology as the right choice instead of a personal failing. She's like a middle manager of today saying that people can't do their jobs remotely they have to come in and talk around the water cooler. And instead of her going "hey maybe next time i'll just use one of the 10s of thousands of loving space sensors that can see a microbe 5 lightyears away, instead of going off of vibes" she's right and that's that.
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May 26, 2023 22:59
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By the end of the season, Pulaski had grown in respect for Data and even encouraged him when he had a crisis of confidence in Peak Performance.
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May 26, 2023 23:15
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CainFortea posted:I dunno, "One is my name, the other is not" is a pretty good data slam. The thing is, that burn is just Data pushing back on her disrespecting him, he doesn't push back and poo poo-talk her the way Spock would McCoy, so it still feels one-sided, even if Data isn't totally passive.
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May 27, 2023 00:10
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were there ever any plans for pulaski to appear beyond season 2? it seems like "peak performance" was trying to set her up as finally accepting data as a crew member. i wonder if they were ever going to go anywhere with it
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May 27, 2023 00:30
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Beeftweeter posted:were there ever any plans for pulaski to appear beyond season 2? it seems like "peak performance" was trying to set her up as finally accepting data as a crew member. i wonder if they were ever going to go anywhere with it Diana Muldaur had a very rough time on the set of TNG. For starters, she was paid more than any of the main cast (she was always credited as "special guest star," which carries a pretty big per-episode paycheck), and that created some natural isolation between her and the rest of the cast. Second, she had a very tough time delivering a lot of the Treknobabble and often required multiple takes to get it right. So she had an offer to join L.A. Law, and after Maurice Hurley was fired, Rick Berman personally reached out to Gates McFadden and said, "Look, that shithead who harassed you is gone, we'd love to have you back."
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May 27, 2023 00:34
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I wonder if there was any consideration to bringing Pulaski back in ‘Ethics’ as the spine surgery expert. Probably not, but in retrospect it seems a great opportunity.
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May 27, 2023 00:43
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zoux posted:
To respond to this, no I don’t think Dax is a GREAT example of a trans character. However, the whole “oh uh last time I knew this person I had a different name/body/gender” thing is a legit social problem for a lot of trans folks, and Dax was a pretty big inspiration for many nerdy trans girls, so it makes sense to “claim” her as trans. Basically don’t put Dax on a list of Good Trans Characters In Media but if a trans person goes for it it makes sense. I don’t think Sean is being performative or wrong there.
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May 27, 2023 00:45
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The only other really bad Season 2 episode is The Child, which I would say no one mentioned.
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May 27, 2023 00:55
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i looked into a bit after posting that and i lol'd at these bits on her wiki page:quote:"We needed someone with a little more of an edge," Rick Berman explained of the choice. "Kate's a strong, confident woman with an edge who can hold her own with Captain Picard. Their relationship is not all that unlike the one between Kirk and McCoy ... although from the onset we had no intention of trying to duplicate the original team." well thanks for that rick, let's see what muldaur says herself quote:I hadn't kept in touch with Gene over the years. I'd only done a pilot of his, Planet Earth, in 1974, so this call was totally out of the blue. I love being back in Star Trek. It's a challenge, but a healthy challenge. I find so much TV depressing—even the sitcoms. The chances of shows working and being funny or meaningful are very slim, but this show is very exciting. It has such an uplifting view of humanity in the 24th century. They want the crafty old doctor, so basically I'm a woman Dr. McCoy.  this bit about the character's relationships with picard and data was also pretty interesting quote:We've been in a fairly stormy relationship due to two very strong personalities, but we end up admiring each other. I'm also giving Brent Spiner (as the android, Data) a very hard time, treating him as a total machine, because that's how I see him, a machine that I can't treat and I don't deal with. But I'm also beginning to see the wonderful android that he is. Timby posted:Diana Muldaur had a very rough time on the set of TNG. For starters, she was paid more than any of the main cast (she was always credited as "special guest star," which carries a pretty big per-episode paycheck), and that created some natural isolation between her and the rest of the cast. it's a shame she didn't enjoy her time on the show. even if she didn't want to become a main cast member some actual guest star slots could have been interesting in the following seasons
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May 27, 2023 01:05
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All I know (being cis) is that whenever the "Curzon, my dear old frield!" "I'm Jadzia now" "Jadzia, my dear old friend!" meme shows up on Twitter, it's cute, so
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May 27, 2023 01:07
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Btw, the only Mr. Plinkett impression I can do is "gently caress you, Rick Berman!" and I try to do it at the end of every DS9 episode.
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May 27, 2023 01:08
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I don't know what Bones personality is but working backwards from Pulaski I don't like him
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May 27, 2023 01:39
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Arivia posted:To respond to this, no I don’t think Dax is a GREAT example of a trans character. However, the whole “oh uh last time I knew this person I had a different name/body/gender” thing is a legit social problem for a lot of trans folks, and Dax was a pretty big inspiration for many nerdy trans girls, so it makes sense to “claim” her as trans. Basically don’t put Dax on a list of Good Trans Characters In Media but if a trans person goes for it it makes sense. I don’t think Sean is being performative or wrong there. Thanks for the response. poo poo has changed so much since the 90s, but probably nothing more than how we conceive of and talk about gender, and not just in terms of transness. You watch something like The Outcast and you know their hearts were in the right place, but it's still largely heteronormative and somewhat old fashioned with respect to gender roles. So you watch DS9 and Sisko is calling Dax "old man" and it's supposed to be a heartwarming connection between them which I feel but I watch this and think, "Does a trans viewer see that and consider that a form of deadnaming?" I don't think the show intends it that way at all, but it's different now and you have to be sensitive to those differences in a way shows, even from ten years ago weren't.
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May 27, 2023 02:00
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Khanstant posted:I don't know what Bones personality is but working backwards from Pulaski I don't like him Basically surly an cynical and quick to drop a sick burn on basically anyone, especially Spock, but a healer at his core who tries to make others around him whole again, even at cost to himself at times. They tried to go for the McCoy-Spock relationship with Pulaski and Data, but they forgot that McCoy at least respected Spock at the end of the day and the Spock could give as good as he got, whereas Pulaski was just dunking on Data non stop without repost, so it came across as bullying. As a result, McCoy is a beloved piece of Star Trek history, and Pulaski is erased from canon more often than a Star Trek: Picard side character when the camera moves off of them for more than a minute.
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May 27, 2023 02:56
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Bones was also the emotional one of the kirk-mccoy-spock trio. He would stand up for what felt right in the moment, even if it didn't serve the greater good. Crusher inherited that role to some extent.
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May 27, 2023 03:02
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bones also very clearly actually cared about spock, although he'd never admit it in front of him. with pulaski it's more like eventual begrudging respect, we don't see her privately wish him good luck on a mission or something i always figured spock was able to tell that mccoy didn't actually hate him anyway. i'm not sure data could
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May 27, 2023 03:09
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Watching chronologically gonna be weird seeing Spock go through all his character development and get in touch with his human side and have these love affairs and then go back to old stuff TOS Spock. If they decide not to roll on through and remake TOS, wonder if they'll do something to Spock to bridge the gap. Edit: Oh yeah Kirk is fully here now too lol.
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May 27, 2023 03:22
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Pulaski developed some of that respect over the course of Season 2, as was pointed out. It's possible that would have continued had Muldaur stayed with the show and the relationship would have been remembered differently. She's a strong enough actor that it could have played out very nicely.
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May 27, 2023 03:22
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Khanstant posted:Watching chronologically gonna be weird seeing Spock go through all his character development and get in touch with his human side and have these love affairs and then go back to old stuff TOS Spock. If they decide not to roll on through and remake TOS, wonder if they'll do something to Spock to bridge the gap. SNW  and TOS actually gel rather well together because SNW Spock is still this dopey goofus barely out of college who has a lot of learning and growing up to do and TOS Spock is a grown rear end man who's like 90% of the way to being the man he was meant to be, while also still being a massive dork from time to time.Like, seriously, Spock is TOS's primary source of comedy a lot of the time just like he is on SNW.
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May 27, 2023 04:14
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Yeah, the thing with TOS Spock is that we the audience don’t know about his more human traits, and are surprised when they come out. But to him, they’re accepted and integrated and he’s more comfortable with himself than ever. SNW Spock is very much leading into that.
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May 27, 2023 04:17
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why is kirk even showing up on pike's enterprise? i thought kirk says in "the menagerie" that they hadn't really met, just (apparently briefly) when pike got a promotion i mean, i know we already saw him in "a quality of mercy", but that was the future and didn't actually happen from kirk's perspective Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 04:30 on May 27, 2023 |
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May 27, 2023 04:27
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zoux posted:Thanks for the response. poo poo has changed so much since the 90s, but probably nothing more than how we conceive of and talk about gender, and not just in terms of transness. You watch something like The Outcast and you know their hearts were in the right place, but it's still largely heteronormative and somewhat old fashioned with respect to gender roles. So you watch DS9 and Sisko is calling Dax "old man" and it's supposed to be a heartwarming connection between them which I feel but I watch this and think, "Does a trans viewer see that and consider that a form of deadnaming?" I don't think the show intends it that way at all, but it's different now and you have to be sensitive to those differences in a way shows, even from ten years ago weren't. Just piggybacking off this as another trans/gq individual, I've never thought of "old man" as a deadnaming thing, just something that really showed how close the two of them were in a shorthand fashion. Jadzia was never shy about asserting herself if she thought she was being disrespected or could correct someone (see again, "kurzon!" "it's jadzia" "jadzia!"), but not once does she do anything but bust Sisko's balls about what's clearly a longtime nickname between them, and I feel like her response to it just meant "Yeah, he's showing nothing has changed between them, and she's fine with that". But also... loving anything from the 90s is wild about gender and I would take 100 Star Treks swinging and whiffing in that period over a lot of media in the same era. I'm going somewhere with this next bit, I promise. There's a podcast called Gayest Episode Ever that covers 'the queer episodes' of sitcoms, and a lot of what they do at the start of every episode is go "this was the time it came out in, this is where the show ranked in the ratings, this was what aired near it" and give you a context for what anything looked like around it. Sometimes this serves to point out "yeah, they were aiming for a positive message but they didn't know they didn't know", sometimes it's "Holy poo poo, they did WHAT in the 2000s?", but there are a lot of weird little foibles it's pointed out over time about trans people and gender identity especially in media. A recent episode touched on a (first season!) Two and a Half Men episode about a trans male character, and they made a comment that in all of their research, this was the second sitcom they'd ever seen touch on one, the first episode doing such was in the 80s, and... that was it. That was all they had for representation in the realm of TV comedy, which tends to be a lot more broad and far-reaching than any dramas or prestige shows might carry a message. Star Trek tried and did pretty okay for the time it was on, but that message basically only went to a specific segment of the population, and arguably, in the most popular era Trek ever had in terms of viewership. Then I think about how running beside it you had things like no less than two sitcoms doing "my best friend from out of town came back and they're a HOT GIIIIIIRL? WHAAAAAAAAA?" episodes that I know of, or that a decade later, two other shows which I still like would take attempts to do a "positive" trans character or episode and still gently caress it up, or... So yeah, Dax is a bit of a flop as a 1:1 trans allegory, but she's by no means a shameful attempt, and I think anyone trying to poo poo on the character for "doing it wrong" would make me madder than the character existing. I hate that poo poo. I didn't start transition for a large part of my life because so much of the narrative around being trans in media was that you had to be a specific kind of miserable and hate how you looked and and and... and I was just like... functionally numb. More rep, different rep, I'm all for that poo poo. Some trans folks would give just as good as they get with ribbing, some want nothing more than to be stealth and let nobody ever know, and all sorts of poo poo in between. I think I lost the plot somewhere in the middle of writing this but I hope to christ it came off as useful to answer your questions?
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May 27, 2023 04:28
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i think what works with Dax is that she's not really a trans allegory but she comes from a similar place of examining the difference between self identity and body. It ages better than a lot of other takes because it's not a fumbling now-cringy attempt at dealing with real issues with only crude understanding. also tbh i think "Spock dealing with his Human side" is getting to be way over done. TV is full of humans. I would like some vulcans plz
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May 27, 2023 04:35
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:also tbh i think "Spock dealing with his Human side" is getting to be way over done. TV is full of humans. I would like some vulcans plz SNW showed with T’Pring that Vulcans are kinky maniacs
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May 27, 2023 04:38
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I have Lower Decks on right now as background and man, I really want to play Klingon D&D.
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May 27, 2023 04:44
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I'd be nice to have T'pol come back she would still be around in SNW
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May 27, 2023 04:50
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I'm a generally sheltered middle-aged cis guy whose exposure to trans folks mostly consists of a Q&A session at my local BDSM club, which had two hosts, one who transitioned in each direction. I learned a lot at that session, but one impression that I took away is that Trekkies ought to have an easier time with trans issues because we've previously encountered Curzon's transition into Jadzia. Perhaps I was a little too optimistic.
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May 27, 2023 05:49
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Beeftweeter posted:why is kirk even showing up on pike's enterprise? i thought kirk says in "the menagerie" that they hadn't really met, just (apparently briefly) when pike got a promotion Along the same lines, it's pretty clearly implied in "Amok Time" that Spock and T'Pring haven't met since the betrothal, but SNW has them as regular fuckbuddies.
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May 27, 2023 06:28
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Angry Salami posted:Along the same lines, it's pretty clearly implied in "Amok Time" that Spock and T'Pring haven't met since the betrothal, but SNW has them as regular fuckbuddies. I think SNW has managed to thread the needle fairly deftly for the most part in terms of chucking out bits of canon like that in the name of doing fun and interesting things with the characters. If it stuck rigidly to canon, we wouldn't have gotten Spock Amok which is a contender for a top ten all time Trek episode. The SNW crew has earned my trust at this point with whatever the hell they want to do with Kirk from here onward.
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May 27, 2023 07:38
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Angry Salami posted:Along the same lines, it's pretty clearly implied in "Amok Time" that Spock and T'Pring haven't met since the betrothal, but SNW has them as regular fuckbuddies. SNW is a Disco spinoff and therefore super obviously happening in an alternate timeline, and Akiva Goldsman can kiss my rear end.
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May 27, 2023 07:54
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McSpanky posted:SNW is a Disco spinoff and therefore super obviously happening in an alternate timeline, and Akiva Goldsman can kiss my rear end. Everything I don’t like is actually an arbitrarily alternate timeline and therefore
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May 27, 2023 07:57
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I don't think dax is technically trans but it was a chance to explore issues related to it on early 90s tv case in point the relationship between jadzia and lenara in "rejoined" which I just watched and is now also making me have a little cry on my morning trek watch goddamn
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May 27, 2023 07:58
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Everything I don’t like is actually an arbitrarily alternate timeline and therefore legit the best way to watch Star Trek or Star Wars
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May 27, 2023 09:08
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:legit the best way to watch Star Trek or Star Wars 
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May 27, 2023 09:51
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:legit the best way to watch Star Trek or Star Wars Or the news
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May 27, 2023 10:35
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:legit the best way to watch Star Trek or Star Wars inside of a decade people are gonna be rendering whatever episodes of whatever they like anyway they like and canon as we know it will crumple into a little dried out turd like the caretaker
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May 27, 2023 11:22
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Everything I don’t like is actually an arbitrarily alternate timeline and therefore What exactly is arbitrary about this?
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May 27, 2023 14:51
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CainFortea posted:What exactly is arbitrary about this? What isn’t arbitrary about “I don’t like [thing], therefore it’s no longer part of official canon”?
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May 27, 2023 16:31
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if we all have to pretend TOS and picard-prequel are canon, you can suck it up for SNW
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May 27, 2023 16:47
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Big Mean Jerk posted:What isn’t arbitrary about “I don’t like [thing], therefore it’s no longer part of official canon”? So, you don't know what the word arbitrary means. Got it!
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May 27, 2023 16:49
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