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Apollodorus posted:That's a really good point. If we have transporter technology, or even maglev technology, then someone could live in Schenectady but beam/maglev into Manhattan once or twice a week to see Broadway shows, eat at restaurants (presumably there would be a waiting list for reservations, which wouldn't cost anything but you'd have to wait your turn), go to museums, etc. It's actually funny that Sisko's dad's restaurant is always the catalyst for these discussions, since the episodes where it's featured actually kind of implicitly address this point. Sisko is spending his days at Starfleet Command, in San Francisco. He then goes and spends his evenings with his dad, in New Orleans. Location doesn't matter nearly as much when you can travel anywhere instantaneously at little or no cost to yourself. Yeah, there are still going to be more or less desirable locations, but not for the reasons that exist today. Having a restaurant in the middle of Bumfuck, Nowheresville isn't going to prevent you from getting customers, so having no recourse when the government tells you that you can't have that sweet downtown location this year isn't really a big deal. You can have a single, highly urbanized street in the middle of nowhere if you wanted to. Seriously, if Star Trek has any problem, it's that the Federation's society and economy are too recognizable. Paradoxish fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 08:26
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Subyng posted:Is it ever stated that he single handedly invented and built the first warp engine? In first contact he had a whole engineering team (that mostly get killed in the attack). Maybe warp research had already begun prior to WW3. Yeah, I don't know if "lone garage inventor" is a good description of First Contact Cochrane. He had a whole little community built up around his project, it was just shabby as hell because it was middle-of-nowhere post-war Montana.
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Jul 10, 2016 21:48
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EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:Beyond that, I hope it doesn't have any self-consciousness at all. Don't try to be cute and dance around the Star Trekkiness. Even the TOS movies at times fell prey to this, like, "Heading, sir?" *gestures vaguely* "Out there. Thataway." Although it was a little more forgivable then because we'd known the characters for 20 years and it felt a little more earned, plus it was a different time. All that would seem hokey and forced today, the more so with new characters. Yeah, the only thing that's really given me any pause about this new series is Bryan Fuller saying he wants to capture the "fun" of TOS. Like, okay, I get what he probably means, but the hokiness in the original series was mostly unintentional and the silly humor was just a result of what TV was like during that period. I don't have faith in anyone's ability to reproduce that kind of tone without it coming off as self aware and lovely. A modern Star Trek series should actually be a modern Star Trek series.
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Jul 11, 2016 01:33
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Timby posted:The only people who could legitimately think this must have been born in, like, 1997. Also, the explosion of serialized TV predates Netflix anyway. It really started taking off in the late 90s and early 00s. DS9 was a little ahead of its time, but only a little bit.
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Jul 11, 2016 20:21
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It's definitely a good example of TNG writers not really thinking things through all the way, but given that those clones were never even conscious I'm not really sure how murder-y the whole thing was. I'd say it's more like they aborted their rape babies.
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Jul 13, 2016 08:06
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Gammatron 64 posted:Okay, so that's the realistic way to look at it, but Star Trek hasn't ever really been known for its gritty realism. It wouldn't hurt my suspension of disbelief because the Ferengi are already very cartoonish. Yeah, the Ferengi's weird system of ideology-based ultra-capitalism is so strange and nonsensical to begin with that I can't really complain about the sudden changes that were obviously happening at the end of DS9.
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Jul 19, 2016 22:18
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Gammatron 64 posted:Nice, Rick Berman being a raging homophobe gives me another good reason to dislike him. It makes sense, really. Gay characters were really the thing Trek was missing. I actually think the portrayal of the Federation is mostly okay just because we never really see anything. The concept of a future society that's so rich that it can take care of all of its citizens isn't particularly far fetched or anything. It just broke down when the writers decided to be lazy and show off civilian life without even attempting to engage with how Federation society might be different from modern day western civilization.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:27
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Drone posted:In non-canon sperg stuff at least (or maybe even in the designer's notes, who knows), they could pressurize the inside of the mushroom to make it an actual dry dock. So it makes sense in that respect, at least. I was wondering if that area was supposed to contain atmosphere or not, because that'd actually make for an almost absurdly safe work environment for drydock crews. No dangerous long falls since you're in a zero-g environment, but you also don't have to worry about a damaged suit losing pressurization or the possibility of accidentally walking between a pressurized and unpressurized compartment if you're doing internal work on a damaged ship.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:51
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Some kind of magical wide orbital stun beam would make ground warfare outside of shielded/armored vehicles literally impossible too.
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Jul 24, 2016 21:37
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Talking about Star Trek economies is silly as hell because the writers almost never actually engage with the implications of any of them, and literally none of them make sense given how rich the societies in Star Trek actually are. Like characterizing the Federation as "socialist" (especially since it's never said explicitly) is pretty ridiculous since a post-scarcity capitalist economy, if such a thing could even exist, would look nothing like real world capitalism and would probably look an awful lot like whatever the Federation is anyway. You could totally have an effectively currency-less capitalist system, for example, if the society was just so absurdly rich that actually having a medium of exchange is a non issue for everyone but the super upper classes.
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Aug 1, 2016 04:15
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Baka-nin posted:Even if the show did explicitly state they were Socialists it would be wrong since socialism is a system were the workers control their own workplaces, and we clearly see that the Federation works on a hierarchy with officers, bosses and seniority of staff. Oh and the Bolians have great big galactic banks. You could still have hierarchies and bosses in true "socialism" or whatever, you just wouldn't have a capital class actually owning the physical means of production. There's no real on screen evidence that the Federation couldn't be a socialist economy, just like there's no real on screen evidence that the Federation couldn't just be a hyper advanced capitalist economy. Although really I agree with you that the Federation is pretty much just idealized super space America.
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Aug 1, 2016 04:47
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Fister Roboto posted:He didn't even try though. I agree that it's in character for him and "good" in that context, but it's still frustrating as heck. Captain Dumbass believed his temporary field commission gave him actual, real authority and Nog seemed to believe that too since he started immediately respecting the chain of command, even before he was all the way on board as part of the crew. No one would have recognized Nog as having authority over them.
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Aug 2, 2016 18:29
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edit- ^^^ that's basically the only thing I can bring myself to nerd rage out over with new films. It drives me crazy that other than Spock, none of the JJTrek characters have any real history as Starfleet officers and just kind of get dumped into their roles fully formed. It feels lazy and unnecessary and I hate it.  Baka-nin posted:The whole point of those first two seasons is that many Bajorans are hostile and suspicious of the Federation and are worried relying too heavily on them would lead to Bajor falling under the control of another alien power. Like seriously there's at least a dozen episodes were this is explicitly stated. Hell, there's even a two parter where they literally stage a coup in part to kick the Federation out. Paradoxish fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 20:44
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Sash! posted:Its the general security dilemma that's existed since the beginnings of organized society. It's something that Star Trek has always been pretty good at talking about too. "The Drumhead" is another good example.
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Aug 6, 2016 19:57
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The first Moriarty episode is great because it has Pulaski owning and Geordi throwing an autism fit over Data not playing holodeck right
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Aug 7, 2016 03:00
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The thing about TNG S7 is that (aside from "All Good Things" and maybe "The Pegasus"), even the good episodes aren't really great or super memorable. "Gambit" is memorable and fun, I guess, but it's also really stupid and feels like an entirely different show. Here's my bad TNG opinion: S1 and S2 aren't nearly as bad as they're made out to be. The problem is that the bad episodes are really, unbelievably, unwatchably bad, but on the whole they're fine.
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Aug 7, 2016 20:16
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Arglebargle III posted:Early 90s TV just isn't as good as modern TV admit it. no Like, all the things that make b5 kind of lovely were lovely in the 90s too. The acting was pretty bad, the writing was awful, the CG stuff didn't look half as good as the practical effects that TNG was doing, etc. It's still really good and better than a ton of modern sci-fi because the character development and overarching plot is so coherent.
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Aug 8, 2016 05:45
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I despise Voyager so much that I've never seen more than like two seasons worth of episodes and I think it's in every way worse than Enterprise, but even I'm willing to admit that The Thaw is pretty decent Star Trek. I really like Michael McKean, though.
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Aug 8, 2016 18:46
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AdmiralViscen posted:I haven't watched TNG since the 90s, and my wife has never seen it at all. We have been getting into it the last few days, watching in rough order based on some website's recommendations. This is a halfway reasonable "best of" list, but it's way, way too harsh if you're just trying to cut out the really bad episodes. The fact that "Conspiracy" isn't on the list for season one is a travesty too. That episode is ridiculous, but it's also awesome and you have to be one hell of a joyless motherfucker not to get any enjoyment out of it. The only episodes I'd even consider skipping in season three are "The Price," "Ménage à Troi," and maybe "Transfigurations." And mostly just because they're kind of boring, and "The Price" is also a showcase for how bad the TNG writers were with relationship stuff. There are plenty of other mediocre ones, but skipping them on a first watch or first rewatch after that long is really silly.
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Aug 9, 2016 00:06
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I kind of agree, but I also think that there's so much good TV now that it's hard to justify inflicting "Encounter at Farpoint" or "Code of Honor" on anyone. There are like 10-15 episodes throughout the run of the entire series that are just really bad, and they stand out as really bad even compared to the episodes that come immediately before or after them. Skipping like a third or more of every season is really ridiculous, though. Most of TNG is honestly pretty good.
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Aug 9, 2016 00:20
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Ogmius815 posted:I mean if I had my way they'd just keep making 24th century shows forever. I'd be a terrible network executive. I'd be down with this. Honestly, I don't really care what era it's set in, but I like that's it close enough to another show to pull in some continuity. If you're going to have a shared universe then have a shared universe, don't be a baby and set your show so far apart from everything else that it has only a tenuous connection to it. If that's the direction you want to go in, then just man up and make it a real reboot. The half-measure time travel bullshit in JJTrek still bugs the hell out of me as a device for splitting from the prime universe because it was completely unnecessary to have a split at all. What I'd actually love to see (but what will never happen) is for a Star Trek show to take the approach that Rebels is taking with Star Wars. Pull in the good parts of old canon, make them work in a cohesive fashion, and then just discard or ignore the rest.
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Aug 11, 2016 06:34
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Everyone else has starfighters. Can we not have one setting where starfighters aren't king? DS9's fighters were really more like PT boats than space planes. It doesn't seem like a problem to me.
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Aug 18, 2016 20:49
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:The Universal Translator is like the transporter, it's there to facilitate the story and get it moving quicker. The problem with this (and with big inconsistencies in sci-fi in general) is when you break your own rules often enough that even casual viewers start to notice. The UT fades into the background enough that I doubt most people notice, but "why can't they just use the transporter?" is something I've heard literally every single time I've watched Star Trek with a non-Trek fan.
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Aug 20, 2016 21:54
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skooma512 posted:I saw DS9 S1E18 "Duet". "Duet" is shockingly good, yeah, especially for a first season episode. I love DS9 as it is, but that episode and a few others really makes me wish that we got a little more of Bajor coming to terms with the scars left by the occupation and a little less of the Prophets and Dominion war.
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Aug 23, 2016 07:47
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egon_beeblebrox posted:Timeless is the only Voyager episode that I remember the name of offhand, so I reckon it's good. I like Timeless because Geordi explains in no uncertain terms that Chakotay is effectively committing mass murder and Chakotay gives no fucks.
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Sep 9, 2016 02:55
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I like the argument that since she reverts to speaking Swahili, it means her personality wasn't really destroyed and Nomad somehow just scrambled her ability to access certain memories. Not that that really makes any more sense, but the whole thing is just way too hosed up if you take it as Uhura essentially dying and being reprogrammed.
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Sep 10, 2016 20:10
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Duckbag posted:Really, I'd say First Contact is the pinnacle of the Berman era, a celebration of how far they'd come and the cultural phenomenon they'd built. I like First Contact as an action film (a lot, actually), but I don't think this makes much sense. It doesn't feel like TNG at all, even though all the characters are there. I watched it kind of recently after watching some of TNG and it's actually jarring how different the tone and feel is.
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Sep 22, 2016 05:21
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8one6 posted:If we're wishing for things can I get a couple more seasons of Stargate? Coincidentally, SG-1 is another show that had end-of-life ratings that a lot of shows would kill for nowadays.
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Sep 23, 2016 03:00
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Baronjutter posted:No one told the writers how the federatio works either. So sometimes it's full propertyless communism, other times it seems to be some sort of regulated play-capitalism with so much plenty no one cares or even uses money. Most of the stuff that's shown honestly isn't all that inconsistent. People obviously still work (otherwise Starfleet wouldn't exist in the first place), just not for money or basic needs. Not that I really think TNG's writers ever thought about it this deeply, but there are real ethical problems with portraying a post-scarcity society as doing anything less than providing completely for its citizens. If you want real inconsistency in world building, pretty much all of DS9's later militarization of Starfleet is kind of nonsensical. Basically every main character instantly transforms into a military officer and you've got Starfleet personnel constantly referred to as "soldiers." It makes absolutely no sense for anyone who didn't join up very, very recently.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:58
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah, that's a nice touch that all their random forced blood samplings and security theatre did gently caress all and was entirely useless and intrusive. DS9 is the best post 9/11 show. Doesn't Founder O'Brien explicitly point this out to Sisko on Earth? I haven't watched that episode in a while, but I remember him gloating over how useless it all is and how much damage Starfleet is causing to themselves because of a handful of changelings.
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Oct 3, 2016 05:27
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Zurui posted:There's no "welfare state" because welfare implies a distribution of goods based upon merit or lack thereof. I feel like I post this every time Star Trek's economy comes up, but characterizing the Federation as "capitalist" or "socialist" or whatever is really silly. It's a post-scarcity society, so the entire justification for any economic system (at least in so far as the resources which are no longer scarce are concerned) goes out the window. It's basically impossible to portray a post-scarcity society that doesn't fully provide for its citizens without making that society look like a bunch of mustache twirling villains. This is in part why the Ferengi always come off as so strange in Star Trek. They're capitalists by ideology, which is just super weird and nonsensical. Either that or the Ferengi are just significantly poorer than the Federation as a society, but they're never really portrayed that way.
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Oct 3, 2016 22:25
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Yeah, I phrased that kind of badly. I just mean that the Ferengi are a little off because they're basically capitalists without a cause. It'd be like screaming that the workers should seize the means of production as all the factories are run by robots that replicate what they need and hand out everything you could possibly want for free.
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Oct 3, 2016 22:50
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WickedHate posted:I dunno, I can kind of see it. They are aliens, after all, with an alien outlook. It's not too different than doing jobs just for the sake of self improvement or whatever. I'm sure they think competitive winner takes all society is a good motivation towards success. I mean, you can explain anything away by saying "well, they're an alien culture," but the point is that the trappings of capitalism (or any economic system) seem odd when you remove its reasons for existing. If you've got three people and enough food to feed two of them, you're obviously going to need to distribute that food somehow. If you've got near infinite food that's effectively free to distribute, there's basically no ethical justification for not just allowing everyone to have some.
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Oct 3, 2016 23:17
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Post-scarcity usually just means that stuff is so easy and cheap to produce that it basically has no value. You can still have scarce strategic resources that necessitate the existence of international trade, etc. It's more that basic stuff (and in Star Trek's case, probably most luxury goods too) is so readily available that it doesn't make sense to assign any particular value to it. Star Trek is definitely post-scarcity, at least from the TNG era on.
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Oct 4, 2016 00:42
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Railing Kill posted:The NX-01 looks ugly and boxy to me, but something about it feels right both for it being a pre-TOS ship in the timeline, and it being in the aesthetics of early 2000's sci fi. I mean, it sucks in comparison to things like the new Galactica, but it is what it is. To be fair, new Galactica had a somewhat easier design space to work in. Aside from keeping the same basic profile as the original show, RDM was clearly leaning heavily on aviation/naval inspired stuff. It's a lot harder to make stuff that looks appropriate for Star Trek without just completely ripping off previous designs or making things that are clearly lazy kitbashes.
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Oct 25, 2016 23:02
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Baronjutter posted:Why are there so many drat steps though? I find it really interesting that someone in the show's design process decided to make the captain not the center of the bridge. I wonder if it was because they just didn't want a two seat, asymmetrical layout or if there was some other reason?
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Oct 30, 2016 03:44
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Riker having a consent fetish somehow seems so perfect that I just kind of see it as a natural part of his character now. ...except for that whole episode where he's possibly a rapist 
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Nov 18, 2016 07:20
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Pwnstar posted:I know theres a joke/meme about how bad poo poo always happens to O'Brien but I just watched the one where due to a misunderstanding he was trapped in a hellish mind prison for 20 years and now has to live with the memories of that forever. At one point Julian says he'll be ok by listing all the other insanely hosed up things that O'Brien has gone through and he got over those. The best part of that episode is it's obvious even the writers know how hosed up it is given that there's a scene where Bashir finds O'Brien with a phaser in his mouth.
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Nov 19, 2016 21:54
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King Hong Kong posted:The Greatest Generation reviews of season one probably give a good sense of the episodes you would enjoy watching or get a good sample from. The only episode they seemed to enjoy more than I do is "The Arsenal of Freedom" while I enjoy "Hide and Q" more than they do if only for Picard's arrogance. The Greatest Gen guys are actually a lot less harsh on a lot of episodes than people in this thread tend to be. They actually liked quite a few episodes from the first two seasons, even if they didn't love them, whereas the general advice in this thread is to just skip everything except for maybe five or six episodes.
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Nov 29, 2016 01:04
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Pwnstar posted:I like the Eddington episode where he's showing Sisko all the poor starving women and children at the Maquis base to gain sympathy for their cause. That wasn't one of their original colonies, it's some hideout they built during their little war. It's totally their own fault that they are in this situation, if they would stop murdering Cardassians for five minutes they could probably find somewhere nice to live. The Federation was literally just going to relocate them to wherever they wanted and provide as much or as little assistance as they wanted. The Maquis make no sense at all because the Federation is always written to be way too utopian and perfect.
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Dec 8, 2016 03:51
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