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echinopsis posted:lol no one is interested outside of a smug schadenfreude sense I'M interested. Answer the question.
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Sep 30, 2017 01:46
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By the way, abandoning an active thread in E/N is a probatable offense, OP. Come back and talk about the Marriage part of your open marriage.
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Sep 30, 2017 18:14
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This is your last chance: discuss the Marriage part of your Open Marriage thread, or you're going to be probated. Do you understand?
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Sep 30, 2017 19:27
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echinopsis posted:mate the things is that maybe the open relationship hurried this situation along, but it probably would have happened anyway. the problem wasn't the open relationship, it's me I have never seen an open relationship work, either in real life with people I talk to, or in self-reported posts online. Not to be all  but I honestly don't think humans can do open relationships or polyamory or any of that other stuff, because of the amount of effort it takes to form stable relationships that are conducive to raising kids. (I mean the way you've been doing it, not occasional flings or experiments or swapping that aren't a centerpiece of the relationship.) As you seem to be learning now, it takes a lot of work and dedication to make a long-term partnership function, and that's with just one person. Throwing more people into the mix introduces more variables to go wrong, and increases problems exponentially. So I while I agree that YOU were the problem, I would also argue that having an open marriage was ANOTHER problem. If the open marriage exacerbated and accelerated the destruction of your marriage, then it obviously was a problematic factor. The same way cheating, lying, addiction, indifference, and so on are factors that can destroy a relationship, the way the source of the problems can destroy a relationship. It seems like you can't handle it when you're taken to task about your actions, and only face up to it with begrudging immaturity. This is an internet forum where no one knows you, and you can't even come in and admit to a bunch of e-strangers that your marriage is in trouble. I can't even imagine how difficult it's been to deal with you in real life. Like, did you really brag to your marriage counselor that you could commit a totally epic suicide if you wanted? Did you actually say that in front of your wife? Were you that cavalier about destroying your family's lives and forcing them to cope with the aftermath and rebuild, year after painful year? I hope you exaggerated so you could look cool to your internet friends, but I also have to wonder about someone this concerned with looking cool for his internet friends. I think you need some time to think about how petulant, selfish, immature, stubborn, and vain you managed to come across online, and really consider if this carries over from real life. If you drag your feet this much when it comes to owning up to a bunch of e-strangers, I can't even imagine how bad it is when there are real stakes involved. Your poor wife and kids.
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Sep 30, 2017 20:43
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I don't know what the answer is, but it's obviously not an open marriage, being a piece of poo poo who doesn't care how talking about suicide affects his wife, prostituting yourself for computer parts, or being super invested in your Something Awful reputation instead of your marriage.
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Sep 30, 2017 21:42
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Also, I'm a firm believer in Sever, including dysfunctional marriages with children. My parents divorced WAY too late, which resulted in a Christmas arson, so I'm not telling you that you HAVE to stay together for the kids. But you need to get your head out of your rear end and do some one-on-one therapy for yourself as well as marriage counseling. YOU PROSTITUTED YOURSELF FOR A COMPUTER PART, or at least seriously contemplated it. (By the way, can someone link to that discussion/post?) You sacrificed more of yourself for a computer part than you have for your marriage. Your wife might not be your wife for much longer, but she's a human being, the ONE person you've chosen to be related to, and the mother of your children. It is your duty as a human being to give her the kind of effort, consideration, and dedication she deserves as a human being, your wife, and the mother of your children. That means doing a lot of work on yourself, work that involves the time and effort you'd rather spend on flings, computer parts, and looking cool on this forum. I DO think you're immature, not because you're having a marital crisis, but because of how you've conducted yourself up to and into this crisis. I'm honestly tempted to probate you for a long time, just so you have one less place to gently caress around when you should be concentrating on your family and yourself. I'm also cranky because I had a tooth pulled yesterday and the giant ibuprofen tablets are only doing so much for the pain and I need a nap so I don't want to go overboard, but gently caress it, Something Awful isn't a democracy. 
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Sep 30, 2017 21:58
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How will I ever live with myself if this precious jewel were to ever leave us? You don't seem to "get" this sub-forum, which is the most sincere place on SA. I suggest you read other E/N threads to get a feel for how things work here. It is dedicated to issues exactly like yours, and it's been a great source of help for people dealing with serious personal crises. Drop the LOL's and the bullshit, because this is a forum full of very smart, very broken people who can ferret out the truth in other people's posts, even ones that purposely try to dodge and deflect criticism and telling the truth. Believe it or not, you could actually receive solid advice and support in here. If you wanted to practice acting like a responsible adult who cares about his family and sincerely change his life for the better, E/N is a great place to start. But nobody here is going to entertain you if you're going to keep acting like a petulant brat because your chickens came home to roost. And that's life. You wanted an audience for your bragging about your awesome life, and you got it. Now we can see that those posts covered up a deeply unhappy man who put his family through the wringer, and your audience isn't going anywhere. Not when the show just started to get interesting. But you'd rather run off to Reddit, like a little man-child, where no one knows you hosed up, so what? You can start over again and impress them with how cool you are? Are you going to pretend to be in an awesome open marriage over there, too, and brag about banging middle-aged women? I can't stop you from trying to be a Reddit Superstar, but I do think you should stick around here and get some perspective. Like I said before, if the pressure is too much for you to be halfway honest with yourself and us in such a low-stakes setting, I can't imagine how difficult it is to deal with you. How did you even get into the open marriage thing, anyway? Was it your suggestion for a solution to some sort of problem between you and your wife? Is this how you handle problems all the time: lie, ignore, pretend, brag, deflect, play the victim, and run away? Your poor wife. We should get HER an account and let her tell her side of the story.
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Oct 1, 2017 00:46
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echinopsis posted:I don't know what to say to all of that. Probably a lot of home truths. And now the truth comes out: you guys DID resort to an open marriage instead of working through your problems. And lo and behold, it didn't work. But you decided to act like it was so great and really cool, and bragged about it so much in YOSPOS that you came here and posted a brag thread in E/N. And yes, you DID put your family through the wringer by entertaining this open marriage instead of addressing the issues you and your wife were having. It was YOUR genius idea for her to chase some other cock, and you participated in the arrangement of an open marriage. YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM, DOUBLE STANDARDS OR NOT. I "get" your posting, which is a sadsack attempt to come across as a Cool Guy. It's not entertaining, it's incredibly obnoxious, it's not helping your case at all, and it doesn't fly here. This isn't YOSPOS or FYAD or any of those forums. How is it you're a pharmacist but can't seem to grasp the most basic concepts like "Where You're Posting?" Again: this is where you decided to post your brag thread; ergo, get with the program.
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Oct 1, 2017 02:20
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echinopsis posted:What were the problems we were having exactly? I don't know what the problems were, you tell me. It sounds like one of them was that your wife got so enamored with her workplace crush that it became an issue that warranted giving her permission to gently caress him. I've never been married, but I know that crushes happen, and in a healthy relationship you learn how to deal with an attraction to someone else without resorting to an open relationship. Also, your dedication to poo poo posting isn't admirable. Again, this forum is not the place for it. Drop the lovely act. You'd be amazed at how much more helpful and agreeable you'll find this thread if you quit being so defensive and trying to hide behind gimmicky posting and half-assed attempts to tell us your story. Edit: And no matter how unwelcome you think your "posting style" is, abandoning your thread is probatable. You're staying on this ride to the bitter end. Bobbie Wickham fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 02:54
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echinopsis posted:what the gently caress is the bitter end, jesus christ I'll let you know when I do.
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Oct 1, 2017 03:04
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This isn't YOSPOS. Knock it off. If this is how you handle the consequences of your actions, then no wonder your wife banished you to the basement. I hope she actually kicks your rear end out, partly so you two can have some space to work things out, and partly as a wake-up call. Being flippant is not a good look for you. I don't recommend it.
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Oct 1, 2017 04:07
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little munchkin posted:you don't get it, hes just doing it as a joke and definitely isn't dismissive and detached irl. he's a lot more serious in real life and his wife is leaving him for one of the normal, regular reasons someone would leave their heavily drinking spouse that they were in an open relationship with Oh, my bad, I forgot. You DID remind me of another thing you posted, though: little munchkin posted:just off the top of my head, three other e/n posters who loved the "just a joke, sorry you can't tell over the Internet how mentally healthy i am actually being right now" excuse: Echi, just for the record, with these guys: -Pregnant obese hoarder ignored our advice, had a premature birth, and her baby had to stay in the hospital because of a Listeria infection -Sexual assault guy totally assaulted that girl, and got lucky that no one pressed charges, but he lost some friends as a result -Bad Dad (one of LLJKSilk's accounts) was getting visits from CPS So that's the company you keep: a negligent mother who put her baby's life at risk, an admitted rapist, and an abusive father. Edit: Hug!! Where've you been?
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Oct 1, 2017 04:59
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Anne Whateley posted:So this is also a trial separation from your kids? He's actually living in the basement of their house, or first floor, I can't be bothered to check which. So it's not an actual separation, except now his wife doesn't text him when he's cruising. Hug in a Can posted:I graduated college and I'm working full time! I am still with the guy I mentioned becoming serious with in the dating site thread. Congratulations! Those are both great pieces of news.
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Oct 1, 2017 05:19
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echinopsis posted:it's annoying that you guys are getting to me and starting to get me to change my perspective I told you, that's how E/N works. The posters here are a little too savvy to take a braggart at face value. They will throw your words back at you, take you to task to explain yourself, and give advice that is often harsh but also necessary. This is what your marriage counselor should be doing, albeit in a kinder, nonjudgmental and professional way. I don't know if you're not being fully honest and not doing the work, or if they aren't especially good at their job, or what, but it's kind of sad that a bunch of goons criticizing you is more effective than your actually licensed therapist.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:38
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Bardeh posted:Dude I think once you're in your 20s your mom is allowed to do what she wants because she's sacrificed 20 years of her life to bring you up. She didn't do it when you were little, and presumably devoted her life to bringing you up. Cut her a little bit of slack here. I don't think he's saying his Mommy abandoned him. He's saying that she handled the divorce in a selfish and destructive manner, and caused more harm than she had to. Divorce is like surgery--it's going to be stressful and hurt like hell, but you should strive to make it as clean, simple, and painless as possible. My father tried to keep my parents' divorce civil, and my mom blew everything up. I was 18 when they finally decided to pull the trigger, so it's not like I needed her, per se, but it sucks to watch one of your parents inflict terrible, vicious, self-centered cruelty on the other. It also sucks to go through adulthood without one of your parents, even if it's because that parent is a psycho. You know, like it would've been nice to have my mom help me make my friend's wedding veil, dance with my oldest brother at his wedding, and just be at all the important events in an adult's life. By the way, Echi, I was thinking about this: echinopsis posted:lol course I didn't brag about it to the counsellor, I just made the point that it wouldn't be a failed [suicide] attempt. Don't be so sure. One of my relatives was an RN who thought she could go quickly and quietly if she put her expertise to use. She suffered terribly for over a week, went into organ failure, and was taken off life support. And considering how confident you were in your ability to pull off an open marriage, I wouldn't bet on your ability to successfully kill yourself without a hitch. Edit: Please don't try to prove me wrong, you stupid, contrary piece of poo poo.
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Oct 1, 2017 22:20
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Dude, what are you doing with the Quote function that it comes out so jacked up?
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Oct 1, 2017 22:57
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James Baud posted:But his wife doesn't deepthroat and doesn't care to learn how! Do we know that for sure? What's her job?
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Oct 1, 2017 23:11
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cda posted:There is something deeply sad about your wife sleeping with another dude and your response being "I guess we're in an open marriage now?" That was the moment when you could have stood up for yourself and your marriage and didn't. No matter what you did or didn't do in the marriage, you didn't deserve having that sprung on you, but a person with a healthy sense of self would have either said "I guess we're getting divorced now" or "never see that guy again and we're going to therapy to save our marriage." Having sex with those other women while still being married was stupid poo poo and you sound like an idiot every time you try and talk about how good it was; those women loving you doesn't mean you have value in their eyes, it just means you're easy and they had low standards. I get it though: if my wife treated me like trash, and I let her do it, I'd be looking for something to make me feel better about myself too. He encouraged his wife to sleep with that guy. Which begs several questions, like how disruptive was this crush? What was she doing that you decided it would be best to let her have sex with him? Was she sneaking out to see him? Ignoring you and the kids to talk with him all the time? Comparing you to him constantly, and giving you half-hearted assurances that you're so much better than him, sweetie? Were you two not able to talk about the way her crush was affecting your relationship? Was marriage counseling discussed, or are one/both of you two the type to believe that going to marriage counseling is the same as declaring defeat? Was it really your idea to open the marriage, or did she plant that seed? Did you guys look into the impact of opening your marriage before diving in? WHY did you tell your wife she should gently caress her co-worker?
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Oct 2, 2017 00:49
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I meant, did you guys try counseling before you gave her the greenlight to gently caress this guy? What was it that made you decide that it would be constructive to your marriage? Did you honestly NEVER give a gently caress if she slept with other people before her crush on her co-worker? I'm trying to understand what led up to the moment you said, "Sweetie, you should have sex with this guy." And for gently caress's sake, learn how to use the Quote button right.
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Oct 2, 2017 01:43
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Okay, I'm still struggling with the timeline, so help me out. How did the topic of your wife's crush on her coworker come up? What was going on that you guys decided to rearrange your entire concept of marriage and throw monogamy out the window? What made you decide that she should sleep with him as opposed to, say, avoiding him as much as possible and letting the crush for a natural death?
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Oct 2, 2017 02:33
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echinopsis posted:like everyone in here telling me to fight to stay together - why? why not "fight for what makes both of you happy" We're telling you to put some effort into your marriage before you decide to throw it away. You haven't done a drat thing to save your relationship; you guys haven't even actually separated. You're being lazy, and you gave up before you even started. You just take the path of least resistance, it shows. Wife is attracted to another man? Talking about it and trusting her to be faithful is too haaaaaaard. Let's just open up the marriage so we won't have to have that conversation again! Double standards with the open marriage? I'll just keep on keeping on, it's not like this is an issue that could come up again in any aspect of our marriage ever! Depressed, drinking a lot and chronically unemployed? Not a problem if I don't think about it! Time to go pick up some strange to drown out any doubts and worries I have about my decisions. Going to marriage counseling? Welp, as long as I don't have to actually think about why we're on the brink of a divorce! Hey, doc, check out my plan for an EPIC suicide! Getting a separation so we can have the time and space to think about what's going on, but fuuuuuuuuck actually separating, I'ma just buy a new computer, that's the same as moving out and working through this ordeal.
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Oct 2, 2017 03:23
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You know, if you think we make too many assumptions and aren't doing you justice, then lay it out on the table. We can only go by what you tell us. And Anne is right, the time you spent on those women, including talking to them to figure out if you wanted to sleep with them, was time you didn't spend on your kids. I still don't quite understand why you suggested your wife sleep with that guy. Like, you started out with telling her it wasn't a big deal that she had a crush on him, you trust her, and you know she'll always come home to you, and you could've stopped there. So, why did you make the leap straight to an open marriage? It makes me think that you suggested it so you could get your own action on the side. And conveniently, if things go wrong, you can point the finger at her and say, She started it. I know, that's a lot of presumptions, so feel free to set the record straight.
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Oct 2, 2017 05:57
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Echi, my sister and I did family counseling a couple years ago, because despite being on our thirties, we were fighting with each other like teenagers. We had regular appointments with a PsyD, and quite a few fights between sessions. It was about six months of work, crying, self-examination, and making active changes in our dynamic. Now we're closer than ever, even though she lives across the state. SIX MONTHS and active work that requires maintenance, and I wouldn't take any of that back. That's why we're telling you not to just go limp and let your marriage end without a fight. People here know the value of actively participating in therapy, and that it can take a while to see the results. If you put as much effort into your marriage and you did into screening your gently caress friends, you might be able to create a new, healthy relationship with your wife. Now I have to go text my sister and ask for suggestions on my Halloween costume. ( I'm thinking Tina Belcher, it's comfortable and work-appropriate.)
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Oct 2, 2017 13:14
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An open marriage going horribly wrong? Who'da thunk?
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Oct 2, 2017 17:58
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echinopsis posted:obv some things to think about. might actually respond later As long as this thread is active, you WILL respond later. Check the E/N rules in the stickied thread if you're confused.
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Oct 2, 2017 19:42
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echinopsis posted:idk, is the answer "you shoulda been more jealous"? i mean i cared, it just didn't bother me. some of y'all think there is this one weird "healthy" level of jealousy a person should have? Your version of the story makes it such an inexplicable thing, that's why we're baffled. People get that crushes happen, no one thinks your wife is a monster because she was attracted to another man. And it's great that your response wasn't to guilt trip her. What I don't understand is WHY DID YOU TELL HER TO gently caress HIM? As I said before, you could've laughed off the crush, told her that you trust and love her, and left it at that. WHY DID YOU TELL HER SHE SHOULD HAVE SEX WITH HER COWORKER? Crushes just happen; deciding to open a marriage does not. It makes no sense. At least, your version of the story doesn't. You make it sound like there was nothing to precipitate the decision to open the marriage, except your wife's attraction to another man. She never ignored you? Never spent extra time at work, never talked about him a lot at home, never called or e-mailed him excessively, wasn't spacing out and daydreaming about being with him when she was with you? Nothing she did or say before that conversation indicated she liked that guy as more than a friend? WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT CONVERSATION? Did she tell you she felt neglected? Did she say she thought you guys missed out by not having casual sex with other people when you were younger? Did she ask to indulge in her crush? Why did you suggest she have sex with another man? Did YOU feel like you missed out by not having casual sex with other people when you were younger? Did YOU have a crush you wanted to indulge, too? This is why people are calling you lazy and accusing you of not caring about your wife. poo poo, I've never done worse than kiss another man, and my boyfriend at the time knew something was up before I confessed. He handled it well--he actually laughed because I was being so obvious--but there were a few moments after that when his confidence in me was shaky. This is why we're all asking if there's something clinically wrong with you: being upset, or at least not amused, when your significant other admits an attraction to another person is normal. It's not about possessiveness or jealousy, it's about things like expectations, trust, communication, and giving a poo poo if your SO feels lonely or resentful. Has your marriage counselor talked to you about journaling? It sounds kind of frou-frou and pointless, but it is really helpful. Articulating your thoughts and recounting events gives clarity and helps you understand what happened, and your role in the events. You're so intellectually and emotionally lazy and dishonest, though, that you refuse to give your own marriage more than a cursory thought. Which is ALSO why we're telling you not to commit to getting a divorce--YOU ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT ANYTHING AT ALL. Edit: used the word "inexplicable" twice. Bobbie Wickham fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 02:10
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echinopsis posted:idk from one perspective maybe we really enjoyed the naughty side of it, and we're both inherently dirty people who love sex, and so, I didn't care or mind if she slept with another dude, and she came back to me so horny and alive feeling, and it was like, this sounds like fun. at that point I guess the possibilities starting coming to me. perhaps you don't believe me but none of this was planned. as the idea naturally arose, because she mentioned a crush, the interest arose. we had a few lessons early on as to what definitely didn't work as far as creating situations that weren't uncomfortable. but for example, we both met and slept with a younger woman who came back to our place. we met like a month + prior on tinder but then we chatted and she egreed to meet me and my wife. we had a meal, drinks, hot as gently caress threesome that was as first for all of us, and ended the night nicely. .. now is that a cRaZy idea? this was just a fun extension of it. she got to have fun and so did I. I didn't really feel jealous, because surely you can accept that people do have different ideas on the sanctity of sex. I am fully from the not slut shaming club. thre might have been things that I would have felt jealous of or uncomfortable with, but sex wasn't one of them. This is what I'm talking about. You know why you decided to encourage her before she came back to you all horny and excited. From your telling, the entire conversation consisted of: -I have a crush on my coworker. -How unexpected, I had no idea. You should gently caress him! We can talk about the consequences and implications later. Have fun! ~the end~ I'm maybe being unfair, but I don't think that your brooding over what happened is the same as actually thinking about it. Like, thinking over why you were more jealous about your gently caress friend's other guys, but not your wife's. Or whether you guys could have found another, sex-positive way to indulge yourselves before adding other people into the mix. Or if there WERE problems that you didn't see at the time. And quit accusing us of slut-shaming, that's not the issue. We're not aghast that you and your wife had sex with other people, we're appalled at you.
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Oct 3, 2017 13:18
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I should become a dentist, because getting you to be accountable to the lowest-effort commitment in your life is harder than pulling teeth. I'm still curious about the conversation that led to the open marriage. Walk me through this: it's before you opened the marriage. Your wife has not acted in any way that makes you think she has a thing for another man. Everything is normal, and then she confesses she has a crush on her coworker. And then you think, what?
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Oct 6, 2017 16:07
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KoRMaK posted:Quoting from the tindr.jpg thread because I too have a failing/failed/rebuilding? relationship, and that poo poo seems relevant and maybe important to share for others. Take this to the Break-Up Thread, this one is specifically about Echi's open marriage. Edit: Echi, get help. You need one-on-one therapy that focuses on you: the drinking, the apathy, the learned helplessness, the self-loathing, the way you try to wave everything off as No Big Deal. Also, your kids might seem unfazed, but that doesn't mean they're unaffected. Bobbie Wickham fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Nov 1, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 15:23
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HIJK posted:Whatever effect this is having on Echi's kids won't come out until they're more or less adults. That's right, I forgot that children NEVER act out, and that upsetting/traumatic events don't have a negative effect on people until they're at least 18. Stupid.
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Nov 1, 2017 23:45
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I mean, I'm not saying that a parents' divorce is the worst thing that could happen to a kid, and I firmly believe that a civil divorce is much better than a terrible marriage. But it's still upsetting, or I imagine it will be once you move out. It's still a major upheaval. It still requires that you pay attention and care to your children while you go through the divorce. You're pretty sure that your kids are going to resent you when they're older--why?
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Nov 2, 2017 02:03
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The open marriage was part of it, but I think the whole "I didn't care what my wife did" is the cause of the open marriage that hastened the end of the marriage. It's at least part of it. Same with getting married so young, and maybe the ideas you guys had of what a marriage is supposed to be like. This isn't to let you off the hook, but your wife is also responsible for this divorce. She happily participated in the open arrangement, and if your wife was that unhappy with it, she should've told you that when she became unhappy. And if the marriage's only problem was that it was open, then closing it could've been the solution. She's just as culpable for the divorce, for letting things go to hell instead of being honest about what was apparently the one and only problem in your marriage. I know I'm not nice to you, so this probably sounds like I'm just being mean, but it honestly sounds like you just don't love your wife very much. Like, you DO love her, and care about her, but you don't seem to love and care a whole lot. It's just so weird that you were jealous about one of your side pieces seeing other people, but not your wife. Same with how broken up you were when you guys stopped seeing each other.
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Nov 2, 2017 03:29
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echinopsis posted:no Your wife obviously did not "pull it off" if she hated it and it ended her marriage.
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Nov 2, 2017 05:30
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echinopsis posted:she hated my crossing the boundaries and going too far. she wanted space and I turned that into the end Okay, so here's the thing: the criteria for "pulling off an open marriage" includes "marriage does not end in divorce."
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Nov 2, 2017 06:05
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The entire exchange between Raygun and Echi is hilarious, but thisechinopsis posted:mate is probably the funniest part. So, Echi, have you learned anything from this experience, or at least from this thread? Like, do you ever read the first few pages of your posts and cringe? Do the warnings you laughed off in the beginning sting? Edit: Lol, I didn't see that last post on the previous page. Bobbie Wickham fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 07:40
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echinopsis posted:[quote="Bobbie Wickham" post="477979660"] Like, what?
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Nov 2, 2017 07:58
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HIJK posted:*looks back at my own life and history that is the only thing I can use to relate to others atm and how it affects me into my adulthood and the perspective it gives me on this kind of home life* *sees it called "stupid" because this is the internet reeeeee why bother talking about things* You do know that MY parents had a dysfunctional marriage, too, right? And that my OWN experience is that upsetting childhood events can result in upset children? And that said upset children DID, in fact, act out as a result? And that maybe your experience is not universal? Or that maybe if you had received attention and care as a child while your parents got a divorce, you maybe wouldn't have the same issues you now have as an adult? You're welcome, stupid.
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Nov 2, 2017 14:19
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HIJK posted:Do you want to bicker about it here or do you want to go the gen thread where we can scream at each other like adults? Why are you so insistent that children can't be impacted by their parents' divorce while they're still children? Like you've never heard of kids doing worse in school or getting into fights or feeling neglected during upsetting events. Also, Echi is still living at home; he's not even separated yet, let alone actually moving out of the house and being gone. Nothing has changed yet for the kids. It's a little soon to assume they're going to do just swimmingly through a process that hasn't even started yet.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:18
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Trade secret, Charleston Jew.
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Nov 2, 2017 19:15
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Well, I think this thread had run its course, and everyone got in all their burns on the OP, so I think it's time to close and Gold Mine this baby.
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Nov 11, 2017 23:05
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