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an skeleton posted:No. So you are a fascist Italian poet? You are just adding to Sedan's narrative!
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Jul 30, 2016 22:59
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White people are so awesome everyone else is calling for the developers to Nerf us. Says it all, really. Especially the BLT sandwich, antibiotics and the moon landing. I'm proud of white people in the past and my association with them.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:03
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Who What Now posted:So were you lying when you said this: In a thread obsessed about identity, people seem to be quite happy to ignore that identities have their own semantic universes attached to them. Isn't is quite obvious that when a white guy is talking about how pride based on ethnicity is a bad concept, his meaning is quite different from the similar language used when talking about black pride? The two have different experiences and different frames of reference, so pretending that just because they use the same words, they are conveying the same meaning, means that you are either profoundly ignorant, or arguing in bad faith.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:03
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steinrokkan posted:In a thread obsessed about identity, people seem to be quite happy to ignore that identities have their own semantic universes attached to them. Isn't is quite obvious that when a white guy is talking about how pride based on ethnicity is a bad concept, his meaning is quite different from the similar language used when talking about black pride? The two have different experiences and different frames of reference, so pretending that just because they use the same words, they are conveying the same meaning, means that you are either profoundly ignorant, or arguing in bad faith. This doesn't really hold water.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:04
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Jerry Cotton posted:This doesn't really hold water. why are you literally saying that white pride and black pride are equivalent i meaning? A white person talking about pride is inherently going to project it downwards, identifying himself against the lower strata of society as he sees them - the black person is going to project her pride upwards, rejecting the conventional hierarchy. Yet the basic verbal instruments used by them are the same. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 23:06
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Are you trying to attack people for using the wrong words, according to you, or to understand what they actually mean when they say something?
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Jul 30, 2016 23:07
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doverhog posted:Are you trying to attack people for using the wrong words, according to you, or to understand what they actually mean when they say something? All I'm saying is that when somebody says "huh, white pride is a bad thing, ethnic pride has no place in modern society", it makes no sense to go and answer with "So you hate black pride and black people???"
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Jul 30, 2016 23:11
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Who What Now posted:So were you lying when you said this: I was being hyperbolic, not lying. I don't think black pride per se is bad, and is quite defensible or useful to have, but in the end I think we have to move past all forms of racial pride. Just my opinion, ese.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:22
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steinrokkan posted:All I'm saying is that when somebody says "huh, white pride is a bad thing, ethnic pride has no place in modern society", it makes no sense to go and answer with "So you hate black pride and black people???" Maybe for Czechs it doesn't, but for people who don't live in Lily-land, the equating of "black power" and "white pride" is very common as a way to legitimize white supremacy and attack antiracism.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:25
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an skeleton posted:I was being hyperbolic, not lying. I don't think black pride per se is bad, and is quite defensible or useful to have, but in the end I think we have to move past all forms of racial pride. Just my opinion, ese. Why should we move away from it? What's the problem with ethnic pride that it needs to be stamped out of society forever?
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Jul 30, 2016 23:27
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Brainiac Five posted:Maybe for Czechs it doesn't, but for people who don't live in Lily-land, the equating of "black power" and "white pride" is very common as a way to legitimize white supremacy and attack antiracism. Right, we are un-people, for the sake of progress
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Jul 30, 2016 23:29
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Who What Now posted:Why should we move away from it? What's the problem with ethnic pride that it needs to be stamped out of society forever? I definitely don't think it needs to be "stamped out". I think as society progresses (I'm talking over the next hundreds of years) it will become less prominent organically, as long as we don't nuke ourselves into the stone age or whatever.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:31
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an skeleton posted:I definitely don't think it needs to be "stamped out". Then why should people with ethnic pride go gently caress themselves?
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Jul 30, 2016 23:34
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Who What Now posted:Then why should people with ethnic pride go gently caress themselves? i didnt say that
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Jul 30, 2016 23:36
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an skeleton posted:i didnt say that an skeleton posted:gently caress any pride that is based off of genetic heritage imo Just because it's not on the current page doesn't mean it didn't happen. Posts you made don't just disappear into the aether, you know.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:37
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I didn't say the words you said. gently caress a "concept" is different than "people who adhere to this concept should go gently caress themselves". Quite different, I think. Here is what I meant by "gently caress ethnic/racial pride" (paraphrase) I mean, if I was in a hall, surrounded by ideas, and I had a limited amount of "idea dollars" to spend on selecting and developing ideas which I thought were good for society, I would probably not spend these idea dollars on making sure society had a healthy dose of "racial pride". I don't think that is where our mental focus is best directed. Now, for people that do happen to have something akin to it, maybe they have a good reason and it has helped them do good things for themselves or others, that's all fine and dandy. But I don't think it is the best, most direct way to do those things. So maybe "gently caress ethnic/racial pride" isn't the best way to articulate what I was saying, here on this internet forum.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:39
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an skeleton posted:I didn't say the words you said. gently caress a "concept" is different than "people who adhere to this concept should go gently caress themselves". Quite different, I think. ok, this is quite possibly the workst possible way of defending your argument.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:42
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Why do you think you know how to spend people's "idea dollars" better than they do? And yes, you obviously do believe that, otherwise you wouldn't have a problem with it.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:42
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Who What Now posted:Why do you think you know how to spend people's "idea dollars" better than they do? And yes, you obviously do believe that, otherwise you wouldn't have a problem with it. lmao, keep telling people what they believe I guess..? steinrokkan posted:ok, this is quite possibly the workst possible way of defending your argument. ok heres the summary we have a limited amount of time in which to improve society as such, we should think about how we do so (deciding which ideas are worth promoting/considering over others) in my view, i dont think "racial pride" is the optimal way to do it what exactly is the issue
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Jul 30, 2016 23:44
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Isn't racial pride in this context just a culturally conditioned stand-in for other concepts, I'm pretty sure if black pride stood for preventing people from participating in elections, it wouldn't be seen as a very positive force. There's no inherent value to be had, it's all about relations to fundamental sociological variables.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:45
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an skeleton posted:lmao, keep telling people what they believe I guess..? And yet in the exact same post you say: quote:in my view, i dont think "racial pride" is the optimal way to do it So why don't you believe it is the optimal way to do "it" (whatever "it" might be)?
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Jul 30, 2016 23:46
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steinrokkan posted:Gassing privilege is very white, Aryan even. Iranians don't use gas, they use the noose.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:48
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an skeleton posted:we have a limited amount of time in which to improve society Society isn't a machine that can be engineered to use its "time" more efficiently according to some rigid scheme. That would just lead to new unforeseen grievances arising. The best we can do is allow all people to be heard and present their social critique.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:49
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Who What Now posted:And yet in the exact same post you say: Uh, are you implying you think "racial pride" is the best way to improve society?
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Jul 30, 2016 23:49
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steinrokkan posted:Society isn't a machine that can be engineered to use its "time" more efficiently according to some rigid scheme. That would just lead to new unforeseen grievances arising. Nope but people can be taught to realize their time is valuable and perhaps better used advancing some ideas or concepts over others. And I like to think as long as there are people like me saying "uhhh hey maybe racial pride as a tool for societal advancement is a bit outdated, lets try something else" maybe more people will shift their ideas into more productive directions.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:51
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an skeleton posted:Uh, are you implying you think "racial pride" is the best way to improve society? I'm asking you to explain why you think you know better than people with racial pride.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:51
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an skeleton posted:Nope but people can be taught to realize their time is valuable and perhaps better used advancing some ideas or concepts over others. And I like to think as long as there are people like me saying "uhhh hey maybe racial pride as a tool for societal advancement is a bit outdated, lets try something else" maybe more people will shift their ideas into more productive directions. Well, framing it as a matter of time efficiency seems to be extremely ineffective in winning over hearts and minds. There are much better ways to frame it.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:53
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Who What Now posted:I'm asking you to explain why you think you know better than people with racial pride. Racial pride *chops off filthy Tutsi arms*
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Jul 30, 2016 23:54
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steinrokkan posted:Well, framing it as a matter of time efficiency seems to be extremely ineffective in winning over hearts and minds. There are much better ways to frame it. I will concede this point. Who What Now posted:I'm asking you to explain why you think you know better than people with racial pride. I'd prefer to ask you why you think racial pride is a concept worth defending.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:56
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an skeleton posted:I'd prefer to ask you why you think racial pride is a concept worth defending. I'm shocked, shocked I say, that you would prefer to dodge an uncomfortable question.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:59
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Who What Now posted:I'm shocked, shocked I say, that you would prefer to dodge an uncomfortable question. Not dodging, I don't know how to answer. I'm not saying no one should feel pride ever in things they identify with. I'm saying that I don't believe it needs to be a promulgated force in society.
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Jul 31, 2016 00:06
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an skeleton posted:Not dodging, I don't know how to answer. I'm not saying no one should feel pride ever in things they identify with. I'm saying that I don't believe it needs to be a promulgated force in society. And why do you believe that? Why shouldn't parents teach their children to be proud of who they are? Edit: That's six too many VVVVVVV Who What Now fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 00:09
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Who What Now posted:Why do you think you know how to spend people's "idea dollars" better than they do? I'll give you seven guesses.
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Jul 31, 2016 00:11
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Who What Now posted:And why do you believe that? Why shouldn't parents teach their children to be proud of who they are? They can be proud of who they are without specifically tying that pride to race. Pride in work ethic, pride in family, pride in doing good things. Instilling racial pride is uniquely equipped to promote divisiveness relative to "hey your grandfather/mother was a doctor who helped her community, isn't that great?" or "There's pride in studying and working hard so that you can become a strong contributor to the betterment of yourself and others." If you have some good arguments for promoting racial pride, I'm genuinely curious to hear them.
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Jul 31, 2016 00:19
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Alhazred posted:The perfect illustration of white culture. 28% Boba Fett, the worst and the most overrated Star Wars
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Jul 31, 2016 00:21
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People who have "pride in work ethic" are almost always human garbage who work some sweatless office job where they can play solitaire for 5 hours a day and take two hour lunch breaks while complaining about how everyone else is lazy. I'll take the Klan any day over people who don't realize that working hard is the human loving condition, and that they're more notable for living decadently for doing jack poo poo by global standards.
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Jul 31, 2016 00:23
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Ehh I'm using work ethic more generally than that. Work ethic imo can mean working hard to improve the lives of others, working hard to improve your own condition so that you aren't dependent on others, these things I think are important. Literally working hard just to get relatively rich and be lazy at an office is not the type of work ethic I am interested in promoting. edit: but then again, maybe pride isn't the right word. I think pride is actually kind of a lovely word to describe any of this, basically we're talking about values at this point, pride I think adds something else to the equation. so maybe you're right.
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Jul 31, 2016 00:26
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Schizotek posted:I'll take the Klan any day I know you will.
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Jul 31, 2016 00:27
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only pride is class pride
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Jul 31, 2016 00:48
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Brainiac Five posted:Maybe for Czechs it doesn't, but for people who don't live in Lily-land, the equating of "black power" and "white pride" is very common as a way to legitimize white supremacy and attack antiracism. Black Power movement is a racist ideology according to SPLC, dumbass.
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Jul 31, 2016 01:37
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