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Pissflaps posted:I recall pointing out that anybody who voted for a party other than Labour is responsible for Labour not winning the election (i.e. SNP, Green and UKIP voters as well as Tories), but this wasn't intended as a criticism rather a statement of electoral fact. Except that that is not a statement of electoral fact, it is the exact opposite of electoral fact. People do not have a responsibility to vote for any political party and are not responsible for the failure of a party they didnt vote for to win an election. Labour are responsible for Labour not winning the election. Random Integer fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 17:28
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Cerv posted:A large chunk of the population have never heard of a proxy and wouldn't know to google that. They're the target, not the technically literate like post on this nerd forum. The vast majority of such users probably wouldn't even think about pirating poo poo in the first place.
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Aug 31, 2016 17:29
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Random Integer posted:Except that that is not a statement of electoral fact, it is the exact opposite of electoral fact. People do not have a responsibility to vote for any political party are not responsible for the failure of a party they didnt vote for to win an election. Labour are responsible for Labour not winning the election. personally I blame the tories
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Aug 31, 2016 17:31
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Random Integer posted:Except that that is not a statement of electoral fact, it is the exact opposite of electoral fact. People do not have a responsibility to vote for any political party and are not responsible for the failure of a party they didnt vote for to win an election. Labour are responsible for Labour not winning the election. The outcome of elections is determined by who people vote for. This is hardly a controversial statement.
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Aug 31, 2016 17:33
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thespaceinvader posted:The vast majority of such users probably wouldn't even think about pirating poo poo in the first place. Except the conversation was started about porn sites.
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Aug 31, 2016 17:56
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Random Integer posted:Except that that is not a statement of electoral fact, it is the exact opposite of electoral fact. People do not have a responsibility to vote for any political party and are not responsible for the failure of a party they didnt vote for to win an election. Labour are responsible for Labour not winning the election. What about a situation where Labour do everything they possibly could but people vote irrationally? This is an improbable but possible scenario. Is losing still Labour's fault? Personally I think there is a slight logical inconsistency to this view.
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Aug 31, 2016 18:12
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British Public Wrong About Everything, Labour Leadership Possibly Moreso.
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Aug 31, 2016 18:13
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Random Integer posted:Except that that is not a statement of electoral fact, it is the exact opposite of electoral fact. People do not have a responsibility to vote for any political party and are not responsible for the failure of a party they didnt vote for to win an election. Labour are responsible for Labour not winning the election. Are you pissflapping pissflaps?  quote:responsible You're both using the same word in different ways. Labour are responsible for running a poor campaign, but voters not voting Labour are also a cause of Labour not winning the election. Prince John fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 19:37
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Nice Independent article that absolutely lays into Smith for his various cock-ups during this contest. I wonder how much you will see the media turn on him now it's become very apparent he's going to lose. In other news, Smith apparently has no objection to a second referendum on Scottish independence, despite Scottish Labour formally opposing one. Thank God Dugdale publicly nailed her flag to the Smith mast.
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Aug 31, 2016 19:44
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jabby posted:nailed her flag to the Smith mast. That's what all those donations from pfizer are to help with.
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Aug 31, 2016 20:05
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It's a bullshit article because it's framed from the headline that Corbyn is only winning because Smith did something wrong. This allows Corbyn to still be portrayed as ineffective while explaining why Smith isn't winning. Also Northerners willing to vote for Corbyn are most likely the minority that voted for remain. This article makes the jump that people are voting Corbyn because Smith wants a second referendum and they are all angry northeners who want are cuntry back. Those people are happily voting for the Tories. They are making the same mistake that this thread sometimes does in that they still believe the working class is a) unified and b) votes in its interest. They do not. Gone are the days of a working class person instinctively spitting when they hear the word "Tory".
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Aug 31, 2016 20:07
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I thought these bits were interesting: "Though Corbyn receives the backing of 61 per cent of 18-24 year olds, the Labour leader is more popular with the 40-59 year old age bracket. Corbyn is supported by 63 per cent of voters within this category compared to Smith’s 37 per cent. And while Corbyn shores up 55 per cent of support in London, it is in the Northern heartlands that the Labour leader finds greater levels of support: 63 per cent to Smith’s 37 per cent. ... The Labour leader charges ahead with 67 per cent support from women within the Labour movement, along with 57 per cent of men."
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Aug 31, 2016 20:08
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Oh dear me posted:I thought these bits were interesting: It's stuff like this that makes me think he has an in, and it's an in with people who don't normally care. Anecdotally that seems to be a fuckload of people, and it got much worse last election.
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Aug 31, 2016 20:11
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Oh dear me posted:I thought these bits were interesting: Popular with people who were coming of age between 1974 and 1994, and 2010 to 2016. Wonder why. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 20:25
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spectralent posted:It's stuff like this that makes me think he has an in, and it's an in with people who don't normally care. Anecdotally that seems to be a fuckload of people, and it got much worse last election. This was a poll of people eligible to vote in the labour leadership election of course they 'care'.
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Aug 31, 2016 20:38
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Pissflaps posted:This was a poll of people eligible to vote in the labour leadership election of course they 'care'. it was a more interesting and insightful point than any you've made in about three years flaps
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Aug 31, 2016 21:19
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Spangly A posted:it was a more interesting and insightful point than any you've made in about three years flaps It's a point which only makes sense if the person making it believes it was a poll of voters, rather than a poll of people who have registered to vote in the labour leadership election, or are labour members. There's nothing interesting or insightful about being mistaken.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:35
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Pissflaps posted:It's a point which only makes sense if the person making it believes it was a poll of voters, rather than a poll of people who have registered to vote in the labour leadership election, or are labour members. There's nothing interesting or insightful about being mistaken. I'm sorry I totally reject your ridiculous attempts to debase an argument please try harder e; seriously post harder you were good at it once upon a time and watching your soul die is sad
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Aug 31, 2016 21:37
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Spangly A posted:I'm sorry I totally reject your ridiculous attempts to debase an argument please try harder Then you're rejecting reality I'm afraid - which is understandable, all things considered, but not very helpful. The polling data is available on YouGov's website, which includes which people were asked.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:40
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Genuine question: Considering Corbyn is certain to win, and assuming there is no split in the Labour party, will Corbyn supporters in this thread blame him if(when) he loses a general election? Because I'm getting the sense that if there is even a handful of Labour MPs who are not absolutely with him, Corbyn supporters will blame them rather than the man himself. Nothing ever seems to be his fault.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:45
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No they'll blame Labour MPs, the press and the electorate. The groundwork for this has been laid already.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:47
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I haven't received my e-mail or my paper ballot I think ive been purged.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:53
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I got asked prying questions by a Labour party volunteer on the phone, asking things like if I voted Labour at the last election. Shocking.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:55
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Pissflaps posted:I currently intend to not vote at all. I care about Labour forming a government at the next general election, and the ones that come after it. That's why you refuse to vote for a Labour candidate who is in the Labour party and is against the Labour leader Corbae who you believe is the cancer that is killing Labour. Checks out. (stop posting)
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Aug 31, 2016 21:55
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Plucky Brit posted:Genuine question: Considering Corbyn is certain to win, and assuming there is no split in the Labour party, will Corbyn supporters in this thread blame him if(when) he loses a general election? Because I'm getting the sense that if there is even a handful of Labour MPs who are not absolutely with him, Corbyn supporters will blame them rather than the man himself. Nothing ever seems to be his fault. I think he could easily win, or have won 2020 if the party had been behind him from the beginning, and I find it difficult to credit the current situation to anything other than primarily the efforts of a minority within the party to sabotage his leadership because they don't like his politics. The damage they have done thus far will be hard to repair and may cost the 2020 election, especially if they continue to refuse to follow the will of the party membership following this leadership contest. So I think my primary concern from now on is going to be whether Jeremy can mange to enact the suitable reforms to the labour party itself which will allow the membership to hold the PLP to account and force them not to do this with every other leader they decide they don't like, as well as if the membership increases can be well integrated into the party and made into useful tools to win future elections, If he manages that then his leadership will have been worthwhile, and I will hope for an appropriate leader in 2020 who can go on to win 2025. Failing that, well, the party isn't going to be in a good place without those reforms because we'll have a membership at odds with the parliamentary party and the parliamentary party will be fractured anyway due to the boundary changes. We would either need another reform behind a new leader, or we can look forward to a complete lack of vision for the party except trying to cargo cult more popular things without any thought as to whether other parties are already doing it better or whether it's actually good for the country. Look at smith, he's not got a single original policy position, last year the candidates were all tory-lite, refusing to challenge austerity or acknowledge that we need to spend to fix the country, now Smith is trying to do Corbyn+1, neither of them were convincing. There's just nobody in the current PLP crop who can actually lead the party, nobody with Blair's talent for bullshitting and as long as they remain a party following the lead of whoever is currently in power, they will remain out of power. Corbyn, in the short term, and democratic reform of the labour party in the long term, to give the party a voice that stems from somewhere other than people who spend all their time in westminster, are the only credible alternatives to that. Unless we want to just sit and pray for Blair 2.0 to come along and win some more elections and then leave the party in this state again.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:58
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Plucky Brit posted:Genuine question: Considering Corbyn is certain to win, and assuming there is no split in the Labour party, will Corbyn supporters in this thread blame him if(when) he loses a general election? Because I'm getting the sense that if there is even a handful of Labour MPs who are not absolutely with him, Corbyn supporters will blame them rather than the man himself. Nothing ever seems to be his fault. This is a chicken and egg question at this point. Who people blame will depend on whether or not they liked Corbyn and his policies in the first place. If he does lose a general election then it will due to a combination of factors and nobody who puts the blame entirely one way or the other will be right.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:58
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spectralent posted:Theresa May is basically the creepy friendly torturer dude from 1984 so this doesn't surprise me. O'Brien? More like Michael Palin's character in Brazil OwlFancier posted:Probably the new shadow transport secretary. The MP in said Tory constituency went to school with a couple of my friends, who say that he was unrepentantly and loudly racist throughout the whole of sixth form.
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Aug 31, 2016 21:59
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The MP in said Tory constituency went to school with a couple of my friends, who say that he was unrepentantly and loudly racist throughout the whole of sixth form. We're talking MS&EC?
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Aug 31, 2016 22:00
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Plucky Brit posted:Genuine question: Considering Corbyn is certain to win, and assuming there is no split in the Labour party, will Corbyn supporters in this thread blame him if(when) he loses a general election? Because I'm getting the sense that if there is even a handful of Labour MPs who are not absolutely with him, Corbyn supporters will blame them rather than the man himself. Nothing ever seems to be his fault. Of course all that ignores that I hope Corbyn stands down at some point in 2018 or 2019, before the next general election. He's got a perfect opportunity to enact change to make the Labour Party more democratic, more responsive to the membership. I certainly hope that is the road he goes down. But there's not a lot of hope he's going to win a general election. Though nor is Owen Smith, Yvette Cooper, Dan Jarvis or any other oval office Labour can drag out. Not unless there's serious change in how the PLP are behaving themselves. (I did think Corbyn could win last year, even up until May or so this year, but too much damage has been done with little sign of an end to all the squabbling. And regardless of which side comes out on top, it's hugely off-putting to the wider electorate. Hell, even as a Labour member I'm dying for the election to be over just for the tiniest remote possibility that Labour can get back to opposing the government rather than its own members) But yeah, the "nothing ever seems his fault to his supporters" line is utter loving bollocks that keeps being rolled out by lazy fuckers with no better argument. Plenty of people who voted for Corbyn last summer & will or have voted for him again this year are quite willing to criticise him when he genuinely fucks up. I certainly have. Numerous times, in real life, on social media, in UKMT. As have others. There is a tiny minority who seem to be trying to start a personality cult around Jeremy which is loving stupid & harmful to his electability, but pretending he doesn't get criticised by his supporters is just as stupid.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:01
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I'm really happy that an actual socialist is in charge of the labour party for long enough to shout good ideas a bit and I'm sad that he's clearly not cut out for the job and even more sad that he's the best man for it.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:03
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forkboy84 posted:Well blaming any one person for the loss of a general election seems loving absurdly reductionist. Corbyn will get part of the blame, his team will get part of the blame, the MPs who refused to work with him because they can't accept that their side lost certainly deserve part of the blame, Tom Watson, Owen Smith, there's very few MPs who wouldn't deserve some portion of the blame, and I'm sure you could make a case for apportioning a tiny bit of blame down towards Blair & his chums for utterly failing to set Labour up for the end of Blair's term as PM. Hell, lets add Ed Miliband because it's his fault that Corbyn could be elected leader in the first place. Corbyn would get his fair share of the blame as leader but it's naive to pretend that the shenanigans of the past 6 months haven't hurt Labour's electability and he can't take all the blame for that. Some certainly, but not all of it. This is a good & true post.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:04
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Spangly A posted:I'm really happy that an actual socialist is in charge of the labour party for long enough to shout good ideas a bit and I'm sad that he's clearly not cut out for the job and even more sad that he's the best man for it. This just said what I wanted to say in what feels like a thousand less words so yeah. I agree.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:06
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Plucky Brit posted:Genuine question: Considering Corbyn is certain to win, and assuming there is no split in the Labour party, will Corbyn supporters in this thread blame him if(when) he loses a general election? Because I'm getting the sense that if there is even a handful of Labour MPs who are not absolutely with him, Corbyn supporters will blame them rather than the man himself. Nothing ever seems to be his fault. I can see how you would get that impression when 90% of the attacks against him are bullshit, but if you pay attention to the 10% he still gets plenty of criticism from his own side in here. The PLP have opened this possibility up in the first place though with the constant backstabbing and not giving him a genuine chance. That said, I very much doubt Corbyn will stay if he loses a general election, even people who blame the PLP for the loss will have to accept that the situation is untenable - either Corbyn or the obstructionist MPs would have to go and the MPs will be entrenched immediately after an election.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:06
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I find it really weird how people have assumed Labour party membership is A: universally attracting other, already highly-engaged voters, and B: That these people are not indicative of anyone in the general population. Certainly it seems to me that the people who've signed up around me are primarily people who feel spoken to for the first time, rather than refugees from the greens or lib dems or whatever, and they all seem to be saying they've heard things with Corbyn that address points that I would assume the wider electorate echoes. I mean, if you think that concerns about housing, disability, women's rights, mental health provision, the NHS, and the running of public services can only be met in a way that excludes voices calling for compassion and investment then presumably you don't think Labour could win on any platform. Like, my gut says that there are people willing to listen to "We have a poo poo NHS because the government isn't meeting it's funding needs", and "We need better provision of mental healthcare at a local level, it's been unfairly cut back and really hurts people in urgent need" all throughout the country, and Corbyn is apparently the only person saying these things, and that's what this seems to be a response to.MrL_JaKiri posted:O'Brien? That's the guy but you're right Brazil might be better.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:07
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Pissflaps posted:No they'll blame Labour MPs, the press and the electorate. The groundwork for this has been laid already. The irony of you being indignant about this is overwhelming.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:07
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OwlFancier posted:We're talking MS&EC? Stockton South
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Aug 31, 2016 22:08
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Scikar posted:I can see how you would get that impression when 90% of the attacks against him are bullshit, but if you pay attention to the 10% he still gets plenty of criticism from his own side in here. The PLP have opened this possibility up in the first place though with the constant backstabbing and not giving him a genuine chance. Not if they get deselected and replaced with red blooded socialists. Who are then entrenched and can put forward one of their own so Grandpa Corbyn can go back to his jam.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:08
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dex_sda posted:The irony of you being indignant about this is overwhelming. Ah yes, you tell the brick wall. I'm sure it'll finally get to him this time, as opposed to the 15,000 other times.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:08
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forkboy84 posted:Ah yes, you tell the brick wall. I'm sure it'll finally get to him this time, as opposed to the 15,000 other times. It's more an exclamation than me trying to get to him, I know that's pointless, I just found that post funny. Btw good post you've made there
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Aug 31, 2016 22:09
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I wouldn't spend so much time defending Corbyn if other people didn't spend so much time attacking him.Spangly A posted:I'm really happy that an actual socialist is in charge of the labour party for long enough to shout good ideas a bit and I'm sad that he's clearly not cut out for the job and even more sad that he's the best man for it. Holy poo poo this, yes.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:09
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