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Squalid posted:the appeal of central planning to them comes largely from their desire to emulate the economic and military successes of the Soviet Union, rather than deep ideological commitments.
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Oct 19, 2018 09:42
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Racism and nazism are much more closely interlinked and much bigger problems in practice than anything you might consider their equivalents on the left. The German radical left party demands a 50% increase in the minimum wage and marches with people who sometimes torch cars, the German radical right party is just absolutely lousy with people who seem to be strangely fond of Hitler and marches with people who sometimes torch humans. I'm not aware of a European leftist party with any level of relevance that seems to aim for an oppressive one-party state but basically all the European rightist parties very clearly are going for US Republican style violent systemic racism. There's no equivalent in the Western left aimed at whatever the modern Kulaks are of the US Repubs' racist vote suppression efforts etc.Nenonen posted:Stalingrad has a similar allegory when the men find out that Hauptmann Haller has hoarded supplies and even taken a sex slave while keeping extreme discipline on the grunts. You can tell any kind of story in a film or a comic or a video game. And it's a bit misguided bc the problem with the Nazi war effort wasn't that the officers were dicks to the soldiers Slim Jim Pickens posted:In the novel, the sub accidentally torpedoes a neutral spanish civilian liner because it has a confusing entry in the ship index. They almost torpedo it because the 1WO didn't check the appendix!
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Oct 19, 2018 09:49
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aphid_licker posted:Racism and nazism are much more closely interlinked and much bigger problems in practice than anything you might consider their equivalents on the left. The German radical left party demands a 50% increase in the minimum wage and marches with people who sometimes torch cars, the German radical right party is just absolutely lousy with people who seem to be strangely fond of Hitler and marches with people who sometimes torch humans. I'm not aware of a European leftist party with any level of relevance that seems to aim for an oppressive one-party state but basically all the European rightist parties very clearly are going for US Republican style violent systemic racism. There's no equivalent in the Western left aimed at whatever the modern Kulaks are of the US Repubs' racist vote suppression efforts etc. When Communism is put into action irl it always leads to countries like North Korea, Venezuela and Soviet Union.
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Oct 19, 2018 09:56
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ChubbyChecker posted:When Communism is put into action irl it always leads to countries like North Korea, Venezuela and Soviet Union. Is there even a communist party that cracks a percent of the vote anywhere in Europe? I don't see how you get to communism from "minimum wage should be higher" and "welfare should be actually livable"
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Oct 19, 2018 10:22
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aphid_licker posted:Is there even a communist party that cracks a percent of the vote anywhere in Europe? I don't see how you get to communism from "minimum wage should be higher" and "welfare should be actually livable" the only person who brought up american or british politics did so in the middle of his no true scotsman flounce
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Oct 19, 2018 10:31
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ChubbyChecker posted:When Communism is put into action irl it always leads to countries like North Korea, Venezuela and Soviet Union. This is a complete non sequitur from what he said.
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Oct 19, 2018 10:45
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You need to define exactly what you mean by 'when communism is put into action'. Also North Korea, Venezuela and the USSR are not the same. Venezuela doesn't even claim to be communist! Hell, the USSR isn't even the same if you are comparing Lenin to Stalin to Khrushchev to Gorbachev. Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 11:24
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The private sector is a larger percentage of Venezuela's economy than most European nations'. It is about as communist as France (which is to say not at all). Obviously Venezuela has hella problems, but just chucking every nation with a left of center government and significant problems into the "durr communism bad" basket is dumb, but it sure is a handy rhetorical club to bash people you disagree with.
Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 11:33
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Nenonen posted:Stalingrad has a similar allegory when the men find out that Hauptmann Haller has hoarded supplies and even taken a sex slave while keeping extreme discipline on the grunts. You can tell any kind of story in a film or a comic or a video game. Yeah thats my point. Thread likes to get loving weird about ww2 germans whenever it can. 
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Oct 19, 2018 12:01
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ChubbyChecker posted:When Communism is put into action irl it always leads to countries like North Korea, Venezuela and Soviet Union. I hate to continue this derail, but North Korea isn't communist, and hasn't been for decades.
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Oct 19, 2018 12:18
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Nazi-chat adjacent: what makes/make tank transmissions/engines so poo poo in endurance in WWII and onwards? You don't hear abput heavy duty industrial engines being this overhaul thirsty - unless they are and I just don't know about it.
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Oct 19, 2018 12:22
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feedmegin posted:Um nope. Even in the late nineteenth century you get people in the government saying things like 'we have quite enough to deal with already, can you please stop trying to add more poo poo for us to have to administer Mr Rhodes'. Britain did not join WW1 because it had a burning desire for German Africa. How strange then, that Britain immediately prepared to snatch up as much of all German colonies as they could, especially in Africa, where they had an agreement to not do this before the war.
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Oct 19, 2018 12:23
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JcDent posted:Nazi-chat adjacent: what makes/make tank transmissions/engines so poo poo in endurance in WWII and onwards? You don't hear abput heavy duty industrial engines being this overhaul thirsty - unless they are and I just don't know about it. In WW2 when we talk about poo poo transmission endurance its usually Germany, and thats because they couldnt get the right alloys to make ones that would endure enough due to the allied blockade. The USSR specifically engineered theirs to last as long as they wanted to save machining time and money.
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Oct 19, 2018 12:24
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bewbies posted:grassroots communist party membership drives and education Sure Marx would have agreed that more communist party members = good, but consolidation of power wasn't his aim (look to Lenin, Trotskiy and Stalin for that one). If they're exporting "Chinese Socialism" to developing countries, then said countries won't become Marxist, or socialist for that matter, because China is neither. Doubling down on "authentic chinese-socialism" means no socialism for the same reason, it's just more power to the nomenklatura, which are dictators but not communists. Essentially, China is a state capitalist country, and people telling you otherwise have a dumb agenda. ChubbyChecker posted:When Communism is put into action irl it always leads to countries like North Korea, Venezuela and Soviet Union. Or the Free Territories of Ukraine, or the May spring, or the Free federations of Catalonia and Aragon, or a wealth of other places you clearly never wanted to hear about because you have horrible confirmation bias? Tias fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 12:26
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Would this be possible to tell as a story about a "regular joe in the German army"? From a bit back but if you haven’t seen it check out the German miniseries Unsere Väter, Unsere Mütter, also available with the loving idiotic English title of Generation War. Last I saw it was on Netflix. There was some hand wringing in German newspapers about whether it was clearly anti-nazi enough, but in my semipro opinion as an Internet guy with a postgraduate degree in German history l think it’s fine. It follows a few individuals from the pre war period through the immediate post war and is more or less about how hosed up the generation of young people who did the fighting and dying ended up. It’s good check it out.
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Oct 19, 2018 12:28
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Polyakov posted:In WW2 when we talk about poo poo transmission endurance its usually Germany, and thats because they couldnt get the right alloys to make ones that would endure enough due to the allied blockade. The USSR specifically engineered theirs to last as long as they wanted to save machining time and money. Also because the tanks famous for poo poo transmissions (Tigers but especially Panthers) put on 20 tons between the first draft and the final product, and retained the same transmission throughout. The transmissions weren't actually that horrible on their own, the problem was the terrible bloated nazi shitboxes they were put in. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 12:31
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Libluini posted:How strange then, that Britain immediately prepared to snatch up as much of all German colonies as they could, especially in Africa, where they had an agreement to not do this before the war. Because the UK has always been a straight forward thinking nation with a solid and well thought out plan both with domestic and foreign policy and can plan ahead for the future. It never has been.
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Oct 19, 2018 12:39
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What about the French tanks that drove themselves to poo poo during Fall of France?
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Oct 19, 2018 12:39
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JcDent posted:What about the French tanks that drove themselves to poo poo during Fall of France? Look man I don't see the problem you got a railroad depot near you right?
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Oct 19, 2018 12:41
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Libluini posted:How strange then, that Britain immediately prepared to snatch up as much of all German colonies as they could, especially in Africa, where they had an agreement to not do this before the war. Yes, it's called 'war'. You don't want the German colonies threatening your own, or acting as friendly ports for your enemy's navy, or interdicting your shipping.
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Oct 19, 2018 12:57
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Geisladisk posted:Also because the tanks famous for poo poo transmissions (Tigers but especially Panthers) put on 20 tons between the first draft and the final product, and retained the same transmission throughout. The transmissions weren't actually that horrible on their own, the problem was the terrible bloated nazi shitboxes they were put in.
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Oct 19, 2018 13:34
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With regard to war in video games in general there is a key problem that comes from the media itself, namely the clash between narrative and gameplay. There’s a fancy word for this that I’m blanking on, but basically you frequently get dissonance between what the overt message of the story is - as indicated by cutscenes and in-game events - and what the gameplay itself is telling you. Here’s a simple example: in Doom (2016 but really you can talk about any of them this way) the narrative tells you demons are bad. The game design reinforces this by making them vicious, ugly, etc. The gameplay also reinforces it by making killing them both fun and rewarding, both in terms of the gameplay itself and furthering the goals that the narrative established for you. If you kill a demon it isn’t a threat and maybe drops ammo or health that helps you in a gameplay sense, but it also furthers your goal of killing all the demons because demons suck. Now imagine a game where the writers are trying to tell some kind of “war is hell” type of story. All the cut scenes and other narrative elements tell you that your character is having an awful time. His friends are dying, he disagrees with the political goals of the war, he sympathizes with the enemy soldiers stuck in the meat grinder, and he’s displaying all kinds of symptoms of psychological issues. Then, you get into the game and you’re right in that “shooting things is fun” game design of something like Doom. The gameplay is fun and thrilling because it’s a video game and the mechanics have been designed for that. You kill the enemy soldiers and rather than being wracked with guild or traumatized you – much as with killing a demon in the above example – are rewarded in both gameplay terms (ammo, health, not having an enemy shoot at you) and in narrative terms (you progress towards whatever your objective or goal is). Then, in the next story portion you’re yanked back to “war is hell” messaging. Note that none this is new. This is basically film criticism 101, only there it’s usually a clash between major themes and genre conventions. You can often see this in action movies that whipsaw between an over-arching story about how war is bad and thrilling set piece action scenes that aren’t presented in a way that the audience is to understand them as horrifying or awful. If you want to see a great example of this in film look at the 2008 Rambo. The first bit of the movie is super dour and about genocide, then we go to crazy Rambo set piece action with violence that is so over-the-top that it can’t be interpreted as anything but  in an action movie sense, then right after the final battle we have comically extended emotional “looking in anguish across the battlefield” schmaltz. There’s a level of discord between what the film outright tells us we should think (genocide is bad, Rambo is a hosed up vet, violence is awful) and what it shows us (  holy poo poo he just decapitated a guy with his bare hands OMFG THIS IS AWESOME  ).This problem is exacerbated when there are outside elements in most viewers or players that tell them how to interpret what they’re seeing, which is where you get in trouble with Germany in WW2. Even in games as devoid of plot and narrative (well, written – we can talk about emergent narrative later) as your typical strategy game many people are left feeling ill at ease playing as Germany. If you fire up Hearts of Iron you’re looking at a map of Europe in 1935, your leader portrait is Hitler, and yet the gameplay actively rewards you for being the best 1935 Nazi Germany you can be. However, as someone with more than a middle school education, you’re aware of things like the Holocaust and the general shittyness of Nazis, even if the game isn’t making that explicit as part of the gameplay or narrative. Interestingly HOI has tried to side-step this issue in recent times by putting in regime change mechanics, which means that if you choose to play as the Nazis (rather than a government following a communist, democratic, or even non-Nazi right wing authoritarian government) it’s your conscious choice. So in a hypothetical WW2 shooter featuring a German campaign you, the game designer, are caught on the horns of a dilemma. You can craft the over-arching narrative all you want to make the game about the experience of the average Joe or even delve into anti-nazi “wow the gov’t really hosed us” messaging, but if you do your job and make the gameplay fun then you’ve just made it fun to be a soldier killing Americans/Russians/Brits/etc on behalf of a genocidal regime, which is where the discomfort kicks in. Now consider something like the recent Wolfenstein games. Part of the reason they’re satisfying is because everything works together, much as in the earlier Doom example. BJ is an almost comically over the top hosed up vet but it’s played straight and directly informs his decisions in the game. Nazis loving suck and ruined his life, so he’s killing Nazis. In-game the act of killing Nazis is fun because the people who designed the game play did a good job, and having fun killing those Nazis reinforces the over-all “killing these loving Nazis is a good thing” narrative of the game. This is further reinforced by elements outside the game, namely the player living in society where they have absorbed the message that yeah, Nazis suck. So when you plant a hatchet into the face of a Nazi it’s fun on gameplay terms, it works narratively, and you as a player have no qualms because gently caress Nazis. One thing I would note is that this is something a clever person can play with. Film makers have been toying with this kind of conflict between what’s represented overtly and what’s visible on the screen for the better part of a century. Game designers are starting to also, but sometimes with mixed results. Spec Ops: The Line is the best example of this off the top of my head. Part of what got everyone in a tizzy was the game straight up telling you “you’re committing war crimes” and then making committing war crimes fun and rewarding in a gameplay sense. People argue over how good the gameplay was (it was pretty bog standard 2010s cover shooter) but set that aside for a moment and imagine if it had the most compelling, fun gameplay ever. It’s that conscious clash between gameplay message and narrative message that people were excited about, in part because it was a video game doing something that was slightly more complex and sophisticated than your average triple A title. This sort of thing is what critics think about at night when they touch themselves, which is why it got all that attention. So, yeah, it’s probably not impossible to make a game about WW2 Germans that isn’t poo poo or feels wrong. The problem is that it probably takes a lot more finesse and risk taking than your average huge studio is comfortable with because with a 100M+ budget you need to make drat sure that you get a good enough ROI to justify being in business.
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Oct 19, 2018 13:36
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 Ludonarrative dissonance.Also an Adrian Carton de Wiart simulator game. Half FPS, half Surgeon Simulator. Edit - actually a field hospital sim probably would be the easiest way to undercut the ludonarrative concerns... Hm. I guess it's about time they made a video game adaptation of M*A*S*H Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 13:48
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Cyrano4747 posted:With regard to war in video games in general there is a key problem that comes from the media itself, namely the clash between narrative and gameplay. There’s a fancy word for this that I’m blanking on, but basically you frequently get dissonance between what the overt message of the story is - as indicated by cutscenes and in-game events - and what the gameplay itself is telling you. You're probably thinking of "ludonarrative dissonance". A pretty extreme recent example of this clash in film was Hacksaw Ridge. It leaned quite heavily on the "horrors of war" angle, but the actual action scenes were so cartoonish and overblown that I couldn't help but burst out laughing. I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure at one point a soldier literally picks up a limbless torso and uses it as a shield as he charges into enemy fire. 
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Oct 19, 2018 13:55
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I sort of wonder if the angle they will play is to have the German main character have killed one or more of the sympathetic Allied characters you've played in the rest of the game. That is something their anthology format allows.
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Oct 19, 2018 13:56
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Libluini posted:How strange then, that Britain immediately prepared to snatch up as much of all German colonies as they could, especially in Africa, where they had an agreement to not do this before the war. feedmegin posted:Yes, it's called 'war'. You don't want the German colonies threatening your own, or acting as friendly ports for your enemy's navy, or interdicting your shipping. (everyone go to the berlin technological museum if you can, there is an AMAZINGLY passive-aggressive exhibit on the ww1 german navy and how they had to scuttle it but they're not mad, not at all)
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Oct 19, 2018 14:00
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Cyrano4747 posted:With regard to war in video games in general there is a key problem that comes from the media itself, namely the clash between narrative and gameplay. There’s a fancy word for this that I’m blanking on, but basically you frequently get dissonance between what the overt message of the story is - as indicated by cutscenes and in-game events - and what the gameplay itself is telling you. however, the emotional immediacy with the person you are playing and his situation means i still refuse to play a nazi, even though considering my looks i doubt anyone'd ask me edit: also, considering how you reenact to have a good time with friends, doing that while playing a nazi just sounds gross HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 14:02
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Rockopolis posted:Too much work to redesign the transmission too? Or is it that there's no space? It was a iterative process where they gradually slapped on a little more poo poo. The specification for what eventually became the Panther started out at 30 tons in 1941, and by the time the Panthers are deployed in combat that has crept up to 50. At no point in the process was the change so big that it warranted a new transmission (which is a pretty major change), and at the end it sort of worked, so they couldn't justify the additional cost and delays caused by the major redesign of a new transmission. It's like the fable of the slow boiling frog - If they had gone from 30t-50t in one step, they definitely would have put in a new transmission. This kind of thing is by no means unique to bad nazi tanks and is probably familiar to anyone working in software development, for instance.
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Oct 19, 2018 14:14
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Geisladisk posted:Also because the tanks famous for poo poo transmissions (Tigers but especially Panthers) put on 20 tons between the first draft and the final product, and retained the same transmission throughout. The transmissions weren't actually that horrible on their own, the problem was the terrible bloated nazi shitboxes they were put in. In addition to this there was a rather sharp increase in overall weight of combat vehicles from the interwar period to 1945 so not every component was up to speed. The US, for example, was using the same suspension system (with a few updates) from the M2 medium on the M4 despite the latter weighing about 50% more. Some rather bad decisions on the German part didn't help matters any, but overall there were a good number of advances and the funding and priority of such advancements got kicked into high gear. JcDent posted:What about the French tanks that drove themselves to poo poo during Fall of France? That was a mixture of inter-war design issues combined with being constantly redirected from one location to the other because the French high command was panicking.
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Oct 19, 2018 14:19
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Battlefield one missed a big chance of using that when-you-die-you-become-someone -else thing to make you flip back and forth between both sides during an attack. It was a neat intro to the game and it would've helped actually drive home that random dudes were getting killed all the time by chance.
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Oct 19, 2018 14:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:From the sound of it, China is doubling down on philosophical rhetoric and doing some programs to back it up, which also fits with Xi Jinping consolidating his power over the country and developing his "Xi Jinping Thought" to be added to official state doctrine. Am I getting the right gist of things? This is pretty accurate, but it is way more than just some programs. Xi and the CPC established some pretty lofty goals over the next couple decades..."a moderately prosperous society" is the big one (read: build a middle class), become a "global power" (largely up to the reader what they mean by that, and ending the Chinese culture of corruption, among others. These are big goals, and in a general sense they're well thought out and laudable. All this is wrapped up in the reality that China is facing some very serious challenges in the same timeframe: climate change will likely affect more people in China than anywhere else, the Chinese economy can't continue leveraged growth in perpetuity, food security is already becoming problematic, the wealth gap is enormous and growing, a demographic crisis is looming, etc etc. To a westerner at least, the CPC is very, very smart...they see all of this stuff coming down the road with far more prescience than certain American politicians and parties I could name, and they're trying to do something about it. Reinvigorating enthusiasm for basic Marxist principles informed by modern sensibilities is one of the major pillars of this long term plan. On the surface this isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on your personal assessment of Marxism. Funding infrastructure and education projects are a great way to build the middle class, for instance. Energizing young people to be involved in politics is also A Good Thing most of the time. Building a modernized expeditionary military is...not the worst thing in the world, especially given China's traditional conservatism when it comes to involvement in overseas military adventures. The problems arising though are pretty predictable -- the CPC is doing what any totalitarian group does during times of reform, which is to consolidate power and crack down on dissent. This is particularly worrying to the educated and relatively wealthy section of China's population...we've seen China gradually liberalize and become more transparent over the last couple of decades, and this recent effort brings back some pretty...ugly memories. Xi isn't helping things...he's the most powerful Chinese politician since Deng...and he's probably going to surpass even him when all is said and done. There's nothing to think that he's as batshit crazy and murderous as Mao, but he's every bit as politically savvy, and his consolidation of power around himself runs pretty contrary to Chinese sensibilities since the end of the Mao era. Reiterpallasch posted:Trying to get back on topic: another thing internet observers have difficulty with is exactly how terrifying the current Chinese naval expansion spree is to everyone else in the region, especially at this precise time when the United States is sending, uh, mixed messages about its defense obligations re: its Asian allies. They can already assemble credible carrier strike groups around Liaoning and whatever they name their new 001A, including surface combatants qualitatively superior to anything Japan/Taiwan/Korea can field. Type 055 is in most respects (the PLAN is generally considered to lag in ABM and ASW operations) a match for the hypothetical Flight III Burkes, which puts it at least two generations ahead of Burke I derived designs like the Japanese Atago-class. And even running flat-out, the US' Asian allies simply can't come close to the scale of shipbuilding that the PLAN has already locked itself in for. The PLAN already has no peer navies aside from the USN, at least within the bounds of a hypothetical conflict in the SCS/Strait of Taiwan. A couple of nitpicks with this: The PLAN is nowhere near having a compelling naval air capability. There isn't much reason to think the Liaoning is a significant upgrade over the rickety smoke-spewing Kuznetzov, and the J-15 is...somewhere between underwhelming and non functional. The 055 and 52D ships are reasonable on paper, but their sensor suite (particularly the 346 radar) have have some teething troubles...their specs are very impressive, but they're a long way from being able to operate effectively in an EM contested environment. That said, you omitted a really big factor: the PLA has used their home field advantage in the Western Pacific very, very effectively. The suite of shore launched A2A and A2S missiles, along with the ISR backbone, is easily the most impressive integrated multi-domain integrated suite of capabilities on the planet. The surface combatants right now aren't much more than targets, especially for subs, but the shore-based defenses are the poo poo of nightmares for a naval planner. bewbies fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 14:32
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEjdihKnYk
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Oct 19, 2018 14:36
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Rockopolis posted:Hm. I guess it's about time they made a video game adaptation of M*A*S*H Press "G" to sexually harass nurse.
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Oct 19, 2018 14:44
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get around ludonormitave dissonance by making a flora sandes simulator https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/A_forgotten_soldier
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Oct 19, 2018 14:45
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Rockopolis posted:
That’s the one. I knew you guys would know the fancy words my dumb brain forgot.
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Oct 19, 2018 14:57
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HEY GUNS posted:i still refuse to play a nazi, even though considering my looks i doubt anyone'd ask me if koreans can do it you can
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Oct 19, 2018 15:05
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HEY GUNS posted:a ww1 slapfight is a deep cut Did the exhibit mention how the British passive-aggressively shot some of the German sailors after they scuttled their navy?
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Oct 19, 2018 15:17
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Cyrano4747 posted:This is further reinforced by elements outside the game, namely the player living in society where they have absorbed the message that yeah, Nazis suck. So when you plant a hatchet into the face of a Nazi it’s fun on gameplay terms, it works narratively, and you as a player have no qualms because gently caress Nazis. Not all the players!
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Oct 19, 2018 15:33
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EvilMerlin posted:Don't be daft, I wasn't talking specifically about video games. I was talking about books, movies etc. all of it. Some people want to eliminate all references to Nazi's and that is not a good thing. THAT is what I am saying. Nice job making a strawman btw, i wish i responded earlier but i guess my post got eaten. You shpuld re read cessnas post, or whatever you think youre responding to
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Oct 19, 2018 15:49
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 I love the people who got upset about killing nazis in that game. It’s not a subtle game. Those are cartoon nazis, as evil as can be and without redemption. There is no black and white, there is no ambiguity, there’s no room to “well actually” about drafted kids and whatnot. If you have a problem with killing those people you have a problem with killing literal genocidal nazis and at that point we can collectively just ignore you.
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Oct 19, 2018 15:50
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