Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Elyv posted:

Panther: great tank or greatest tank?

Piss poor tank. Now, Sherman vs T-34 for best tank of the war. Discuss.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2016 23:43

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 09:35

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

P-Mack posted:

It only had a 4 rating. Guess it got a lot of ones from keldoclock fans.

And, to be honest, the thread did occasionally pounce on clueless people who came in asking dumb/incendiary questions in innocent ignorance.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 00:10

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Ice Fist posted:

Let me tell you about the Tiger tank.

The unequaled best tank ever made. Ever. It would murder modern tanks.

Post your favorite "the tiger is the best" lines you've ever heard.

I prefer the IS-2. Picture to assist the newbie to tankchat.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 01:12

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Ainsley McTree posted:

Also, tankchat caused me to remember that the KV-2 existed, which in my opinion looks like one of those tanks that probably ought to be fake (or at least a goofy prototype that never saw combat) but I guess nope, it was out there.

Contrast the T-95 which was a goofy prototype that never saw combat but looked pretty drat mean, like a Hetzer's big brother.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 05:20

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Ensign Expendable posted:

Yugoslavia to the rescue.

Needs more barrels.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 22:32

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

OwlFancier posted:

For a brief, glorious time in the first world war there was an aircraft carrier with the hull of a light cruiser sailing around with an 18 inch battlecruiser cannon stuck on the back and a massive ramp on the front.

The werecraftcarrier.

And yet it wasn't the carrier that crippled a heavy cruiser with the carrier's own guns. That honor would go to escort carrier USS White Plains and its 5-incher. :black101:

# ¿ Aug 3, 2016 02:25

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

I did some learning today about an obscure part of naval military history: the South American naval arms races of the early 20th century, specifically Brazil's Minas Geraes class battleships when they were announced as Brazil's unique unit in Civilization 6. They made Brazil the third country in the world, after the UK and US, to order and build modern dreadnought-type battleships, and set off a naval arms race between Brazil, Argentina, and Chile.

A Brazilian poster in the Civ6 thread in Games commented they'd never heard of the ships (there were two), and after reading up on their service history I'm not terribly surprised. They had a huge international impact when they arrived, but their history afterwards was less than glorious - both were among the ships that mutinied during the Revolt of the Lash, and the crew of the Sao Paolo (the second of the class) subsequently mutinied again in 1924. The only battles either ship were involved in were internal Brazilian revolts - the Tenente revolts in 1922 and the Constitutionalist Revolution in 1934.

Both ships nominally took part in the First and Second World Wars, but didn't do anything noteworthy: they were offered to the British during WW1 but the British declined due to the ships' poor condition and lack of modern fire control systems. Both were top of the line warships among the most powerful in the world when they were launched, but were outdated by the time Brazil entered WW1 and hadn't been maintained well or modernized. They both then served as harbor guard ships during WW2 and never fired a shot in anger.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2016 03:12

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

I'm curious where the modern IFV fits into this discussion of the evolution of armor. APCs are easy enough to understand, but then you started running into the Soviet BMPs and American Bradleys and other vehicles that carry infantry but also potent weapons in their own right. I'm curious whether they grew out of the APC role conceptually, or bear more of a relationship to the armored cars and light tanks of WW2, or something else entirely.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 02:05

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

cheerfullydrab posted:

Greatest blitzkrieg of all time happened in 1944.

1945 also made a ridiculously good showing with August Storm.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 16:52

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Crossposting from PYF, one soldier's account of the Warsaw Uprising.

quote:

�In Warsaw I partook in 19 fights on knives and bayonets. In cellars. Cellars were a second Warsaw. When you fight in a cellar, it's quiet, you don't see anything. I was faster. I killed that Pole. Warsaw � my most terrible experiences.

...

�We were entering Warsaw walking the cobblestones. Poles were shooting but we couldn�t see them. White flags on buildings. I jumped through a broken window. On the stairs I saw a man and a woman shot once in their foreheads."

�We were storming house by house, everywhere we saw civilians, women and children. Everyone had a hole in the forehead. We made our way to the SS barracks. Another company that drove the lorries took a wrong turn and got straight in front of Polish positions. Some of the trucks were on flames; soldiers were running for their lives. Many were running straight into the Polish line of fire. The sergeant fell a few steps from me."

�The next day we were ordered to take over a road. We went through small gardens. Our commander Lieutenant Fels was rushing us forward. We had to blow up the doors of the building from which the fiercest fire was shot. We threw hand grenades and jumped in. The Poles surrounded us. A short knife fight and we escape into the bushes. Four of the guys from our railway wagon died. Once again Fels was driving us to attack, but the Poles were well hidden. We could not withdraw because they were shooting at us from the back, as well. All night we were sitting in these small gardens like scared animals. I was thirsty. I found some tomatoes. We were constantly shot at. The next evening the infantry came to the rescue but we made no progress. Then a SS unit arrived. They looked strange. They had no ranks on their uniforms and reeked of vodka. They attacked instantly screaming hooorrraaay and were dying by dozens. Their commander dressed in a black leather coat was raging in the back pushing his men to attack. A tank arrived. We rushed with the SS troopers behind it. A few meters from the buildings the tank was hit. It exploded and a soldier�s hat flew high up. We ran away again. The second tank was hesitating. We were covering the front as the SS-men were rushing civilians out of their homes and positioning them around the tank, forcing some to sit on the armor. For the first time in my life I saw such a thing. They were speeding up a Polish woman in a long coat. She was holding a little girl in her arms. People crowded on the tank were helping her to climb up. Someone took the girl. When he was handing her back to the mother the tank started moving forward. The child fell down under the tracks and got crushed. The woman was screaming in terror. One of the SS-men frowned and shot the woman in the head. They continued driving. Those who tried to escape were killed by SS-men."

�The attack was successful. The Poles were retreating. We chased behind them. Behind us civilians were getting out of cellars with their arms up. They were screaming nicht partisan (we are not partisans). I didn�t see what was happening there because we were exchanging fire with the Poles but I heard as this SS commander in the leather coat was shouting to his men to kill everyone, including women and children."

�We followed the Poles into one of the houses. There were three of us. We were on the ground floor. The Poles were attacking from upper floors and the cellar. All night we were burning furniture to see something. Time after time we were fighting bayonet to bayonet. At dawn I saw that there are only two of us. The third soldier had his throat slit. There were bodies in every room. A sniper was shooting at us from the roof of a house across the street. We�ve hit him, he fell down but his leg caught on the construction beam. He was hanging upside down. He lived for a long time before he died. When we were returning, bodies of Poles were scattered all over the streets. There was no other way than to walk on dead people. In the heat they were decaying rapidly. The sun was covered with dust and smoke. Plenty of flies and worms. We were covered with blood. The uniforms were sticky. This fanatic fool Lieutenant Fels welcomed us. Where have you been, you cheeky pigs? He was praising the SS for a good job. I couldn�t eat anything. We were all throwing up."

...

�After a few days of fighting we were assigned to Dirlewanger. Three Sturmpioniere for each SS platoon. Our job was to make way for SS-men, blow up all obstacles and doors. We were jumping into houses and chasing out people. We were Fels� people but during the fight we were under Dirlewanger�s command."

�Always in the lead. Run, place the explosive and after the detonation jump into the building. We were followed by Dirlewanger�s horde. They were looking like bums. Dirty and shredded uniforms. Not all of them had weapons; they were taking them from the dead. Every morning they were getting vodka. We, the Sturmpioniere did too. We were drinking on an empty stomach; before attack one does not eat. If you get shot in an empty stomach, you may survive; if you are shot in a full stomach you die in pain."

�Dirlewanger walked in the rear, sometimes rode in a tank, always under a good cover. He rushed his men forward. Those who lagged behind were shot by him in the back."

�Usually a large crowbar was enough to open doors of buildings and houses. To open stronger ones we were setting explosives or clusters of three grenades. The heavy, two-winged doors of the Bishop�s Palace blew out in two directions. Inside everything was purple. In the dining room food was set on the table. Still warm. We didn�t try it, because we were afraid it was poisoned."

�It's important to know where to set the explosives. From the side, in the middle. All depends where you want the doors to fly after the explosion and everything must be done as silent as possible because the Poles were standing behind doors listening and shooting. So we sometimes scratched opposing ends of doors to mislead the Poles."

�I was setting explosives under big doors, somewhere in Old Town. From inside we heard Nicht schie�en! Nicht schie�en! (don't shoot). The doors opened and a nurse appeared with a tiny white flag. We went inside with fixed bayonets. A huge hall with beds and mattresses on the floor. Wounded were everywhere. Besides Poles there were also wounded Germans. They begged the SS-men not to kill the Poles. A Polish officer, a doctor and 15 Polish Red Cross nurses surrendered the military hospital to us. The Dirlewangerers were following us. I hid one of the nurses behind the doors and managed to lock them. I heard after the war that she has survived. The SS-men killed all the wounded. They were breaking their heads with rifle butts. The wounded Germans were screaming and crying in despair. After that, the Dirlewangerers ran after the nurses; they were ripping clothes off them. We were driven out for guard duty. We heard women screaming. In the evening, on Adolph Hitler's Square [now Piłsudzki Square] there was a roar as loud as during boxing fights. So I and my friend climbed the wall to see what was happening there. Soldiers of all units: Wehrmacht, SS, Kaminski's Cossacks [ RONA ], boys from Hitlerjugend; whistles, exhortations. Dirlewanger stood with his men and laughed. The nurses from the hospital were rushed through the square, naked with hands on their heads. Blood ran down their legs. The doctor was dragged behind them with a noose on his neck. He wore a rag, red maybe from blood and a thorn crown on top of the head. All were lead to the gallows where a few bodies were hanging already. When they were hanging one of the nurses, Dirlewanger kicked the bricks she was standing on. I couldn't watch that anymore. We ran to our quarters, but before we reached them we saw Kaminski�s Cossacks rushing with civilians. We called those 'Cossacks Hiwis' � from Hilfswillige (volunteers, willing to help). Next to them a Polish pregnant woman fell down. One of the Hiwis turned back and whipped her, she tried to escape on knees, but they killed her running over her with horses.�

�We were sleeping in cellars. In the quarters, between attacks, we drank a lot of vodka; we talked a lot, too. 'Maybe tomorrow I will be wounded and return home', we were saying."

�We had nightmares. I screamed in my sleep. Then my companions were waking me up with cold water saying 'Bubi, Du hast den Warschaukoller' (Bubi, you have the Warsaw madness)."

�We slept in clothes, continuous alarms; Raus! Raus! Fels yelled. More than once we could hear the Poles on the other side of the wall. Once they even sang a lively song. Sometimes I cried. When you attack you are not afraid, but in the quarters you shake. We drank a lot.�

�We demolished a wall which was obstructing the view of a big yard. SS planned to storm the buildings on the other side of it. When a colleague was battering the doors with a crowbar, I saw a Pole on my left side. I pulled my colleagues into a hole in the wall, but both got hit. One got the whole magazine, the second in the lungs, the bullet bounced from the dog tag. When he was breathing, blood was pouring out of his mouth. I put soil in his lung wound. I was lying with the dead and the wounded. I pressed against the wall. My colleague groaned, the Poles tossed grenades. I threw one back, the second rolled out of my reach. I was red from the blood and flesh. In the afternoon four soldiers from Wehrmacht came with stretchers. We managed to break through, but the wounded colleague got three shots and died. I couldn't say a word; I shivered and was throwing up. The Major gave me a day to rest, so I saw the burial of my colleagues. They took their shoes off, threw them into a ditch with other killed and sprinkled with lime. Polish civilians had to do everything."

�Colleagues were perishing, new ones were sent to us. I had stupid luck, maybe because when Fels forced me to action, he wished me to �die like a dog�.� (Schenk is laughing). �I don't think he liked me. Our group of assault engineers was called then the Himmelfahrtskommando (Commando of Ascension), because we always were first, and the Poles were shooting, no one knew from where. The bullet whizzes and you fly to heaven. We quickly learned from clever Poles how to hide. They could shoot from under a slightly risen roofing tile. Many fought in German uniforms and spoke German very well. We couldn't wear our metal helmets as Poles were wearing them too. We were afraid we would start shooting at our own troops."

�In the beginning I was a bad shooter. I was punished for lack of aim. I couldn't shut my left eye. They were suspecting I'm simulating. They sent me to a doctor and he told me to shoot from the other hand. I became a left eye shooter. It was quite handy in street fights."

�Once in a hand-to-hand combat a Pole yanked the rifle from a new colleague. Fels came in with SS-men and ordered him to retrieve the gun. The boy was shaking all over, but Fels drew his own gun and ordered him to follow the Poles. The boy returned quickly badly wounded with a knife; he was screaming and bleeding."

�I was left alone once more. My storm troop mates were heavily wounded with knife and bayonet. It was August 6th. From that point on the dates are blurry. I can only remember the heaviest fights in a certain order, but without dates. I remember, that on August 14th I got a postcard from the pastor from Minefield; last message from home. On September 15 I was looking at the other bank of the Vistula River. I saw a Russian tank Then a second and third. They came to the bank. We all panicked. The Russians must have had a great view of our positions; they weren't shooting. The tanks disappeared between houses.�

�I was lying in an apartment on the third floor. A SS officer ordered us to hold the house. The whole apartment was covered with a thick layer of sand. Good idea, I was admiring the owners. I would do the same. They must have worked hard. The sand protected the apartment from fire. �After the war all they will need to do is remove it,� I thought. I was throwing gasoline bottles through the window at the cinema on the other side of street. Houses attacked with such bottles usually were starting to burn. I thought we smoked out the Poles, but they were still shooting and tossing grenades. In the dust of the last detonation I started to run downstairs. When I moved by a window on the staircase, I felt pain like from a strike of a whip and something hot. Hands and face in blood. I felt I was seriously wounded. My friends too. They took my pants off and started to roll on the floor laughing. I had a small mark on my butt. A bullet hit the canteen with coffee.�

�Sometimes in the movies, there are scenes from the Uprising, but there is nothing that I've seen. I haven't told that to anybody yet with such great detail. You ask about everything. It�s your right, but everything is coming to life again. Back then we had no idea that those killed will never die, that they will always be with us. Everything happened so quickly. Shouting, shooting. Singular faces. All this is stuck in my memory very strongly.�

(Schenk hides his face in his hands).

�We blew up the doors, I think of a school. Children were standing in the hall and on the stairs. Lots of children. All with their small hands up. We looked at them for a few moments until Dirlewanger ran in. He ordered to kill them all. They shot them and then they were walking over their bodies and breaking their little heads with butt ends. Blood streamed down the stairs. There is a memorial plaque in that place stating that 350 children were killed. I think there were many more, maybe 500."

�Or that Polish woman" (Schenk doesn't remember which action it was). "Every time, when we stormed the cellars and women were inside the Dirlewanger soldiers raped them. Many times a group raped the same woman, quickly, still holding weapons in their hands. Then after one of the fights, I was standing shaking by the wall and couldn't calm my nerves. Dirlewanger soldiers burst in. One of them took a woman. She was pretty. She wasn't screaming. Then he was raping her, pushing her head strongly against the table, holding a bayonet in the other hand. First he cut open her blouse. Then one cut from stomach to throat. Blood gushed. Do you know, how fast blood congeals in August?"

�There is also that small child in Dirlewanger�s hands. He took it from a woman who was standing in the crowd in the street. He lifted the child high and then threw it into the fire. Then he shot the mother."

�Or that little girl who unexpectedly came out of the cellar. She was thin and short, something about 12 years old. Torn clothes, disheveled hair. On one side we, on the other Poles. She was standing by the wall not knowing where to run. She raised her hands, and said Nicht Partizan. I waved with my hand that she shouldn't be afraid and should come closer. She was walking with her little hands up. She was squeezing something in one of her hands. She was very close when I heard a shot. Her head bounced. A piece of bread fell out from her hand. In the evening the platoon leader, he was from Berlin, came up to me and said proudly: �It was a master shot. Wasn�t it?� He smiled proudly."

�Frequently children came to us. They couldn't find their parents. They wanted bread. A small Polish boy brought us food when we were on guard duty. I don't think he was a captive. I don't know. I was then on guard in a cellar of a textile factory. The boy didn't know German, but we could communicate with gestures. When I had, I gave him cigarettes. Passing by was a SS-man. He waved at the boy to follow him. The boy went after him. Then I heard a shot. I ran. The dead boy was lying on the stairs. The SS-man pointed the gun at me. He gave me a long look, but eventually left. This is how matters were in Warsaw."

�Our mascot was a crippled boy. Also 12 years old. He lost one leg, but could jump very fast on the other one. He was very proud of that. He always jumped around the soldiers, back and forth. We said it was for luck. He helped a little. One day the SS-men called him. He jumped to them willingly. They were laughing and asked him to jump to the trees. From far I saw that they put 2 grenades into his bag. He didn't notice. He was jumping and they laughed at him shouting: Schneller, schneller! (faster, faster). The boy blew up."

�I usually wake up very early, my wife sleeps longer. Sometimes in a half-dream I see killed people in front of me. Sometimes I am trying to count those I killed myself, but I can't.�

�There was a shortage of water in Warsaw. There was a bathtub at a dressing point, where fresh water was stored. Once I jumped into it. Many others jumped too. A paramedic I knew told me about lots of underwear left in an abandoned cellar. It was blue, non-regulatory. I got rid of the military rags and took the blue ones. Later on I got one week of penitentiary company from the sergeant. I had to carry mines on the river's bank."

�My second penitentiary watch was for a priest. We blew up the back door to a monastery � very heavy, they lead to a cellar. The monastery, a huge building near the Old Town, was already very damaged by bombs and grenades. Two of us jumped inside. There was a priest standing in front of us. He held a wafer and a chalice in his hands. Maybe this was an impulse, I don't know. We genuflected and took the communion. Then a third from our group ran in and did the same. SS-men stormed in and the usual shots, screams, and groans could be heard. The nuns were in habits. A few hours later I saw that priest in Dirlewangerers' hands. They drank wine from the chalice, the wafers were scattered and broken. They were pissing on a cross that was leaning against the wall. They were torturing the priest: he had a bloody face, torn cassock. We took that priest from them, it was an impulse. They were surprised, but so drunk, that they didn't know what was happening. The next day they also didn't remember what happened. We passed the priest to our battalion. I didn't hear about him anymore. But on the road we meet Fels. For the priest I got a solitary guard duty on a bridge. I think it was the Kierbiedz Bridge. Bridges on the Vistula River were already demolished, but part some of the spans were still standing. The Russians had a machine gun nest on their side of the river and we had ours on our side. Day and night I had to stand in the middle of the bridge and gather intelligence. I hid behind steel cranes. The night was peaceful. From time to time the guns were shooting at each other, more into the air because of large distance. During the day the Russians were moving around rather carefree. In the back small cars were bringing food and officers with wide epaulettes observed through binoculars our part of Warsaw. Soldiers were sun tanning."

�On another penal guard, hidden in a bale of fabric in a textile factory, I watched the Poles. In case of attack I had to shoot a red flare and run away. There were 40 of them. A uniformed officer was leading the group. They looked pitiful. Many were wounded. I saw women with weapons, civilians, and children. Their weaponry was poor. In the evening I returned with a report. We stormed that hideout in the morning."

�I don't remember when we decided to kill this pig Fels. To survive because he constantly pushed us ahead. Seven or eight of us drew rifles at random. Two were loaded. When the occasion came up that Fels was in front of us we shot him in the back. He fell and we escaped. The new commander was much more humane.�

�Today I don't know if we blew up the State Securities Printing House or maybe the Polish Bank. It was somewhere downtown. We couldn't conquer that target for a long time. They told us to dig a tunnel. We dug in pairs, wearing only underpants. We changed in the fore. When I was in front, I smelled a strange odor and then my colleague stopped taking soil from me. I crawled to him; he was dead. The tunnel exited into a cellar. I heard Poles. They probably took it over. At night I crawled out of the hole and walking through the cellars managed to rejoin ours. I couldn't recognize the sentry. He ordered me to lie on the ground. I screamed my name and password: Heidekrug (pot of the heather). He asked why I'm clad in underpants only. Eventually he believed me."

�The next day they brought a �Goliath�. Civilians had to lead its path, because Poles learned how to detonate a �Goliath� at our lines and many soldiers died. The Goliath made a hole in the wall. The whole night we were chasing the Poles in the cellars and on the floors. In the morning a tank came and the building was taken. Lots of gold coins lay about in the cellars. We were stuffing our pockets so full so that our pants were falling off. Then the gold disappeared. The boys were whispering that Dirlewanger took it somewhere.�

�That was probably my last action in Warsaw. We were storming some building, I ran through a field. A wounded soldier lay on the ground. I gave him some water from my canteen, than ran forward to blow some doors. The SS was moving behind us. When I ran back, Dirlewanger stopped me. He pointed to the wounded soldier: �You gave water to this pig?� Only then did I notice, that on a German uniform the wounded had a dirty white-red armband."

"�Shoot him!� Dirlewanger handed me his pistol."

"I stood motionless, sick of all of that. Dirlewanger was so furious, that I couldn't understand what he was shouting. The Pole looked at me. I will never forget his eyes. In Warsaw I learned to recognize if a wounded would survive the next ten minutes or a couple of hours. When one sees so many people dying you just know how long they will live. One of Dirlewanger SS-men grabbed the gun from me and shot the Pole."

�Dirlewanger shouted that he will shoot me on site. Then some Wehrmacht soldiers arrived so he began to threaten me with court martial. One infantry officer started a violent discussion with him. I ran away."

�By the end of September three Poles approached me with their hands up. They handed over a machine gun and two pistols. One of them spoke perfect German. I stood alone at my post. I didn't know what to do. I said they have to wait, and better not be noticed by anyone. I was lucky, I quickly found our new lieutenant. He took the POWs personally and escorted them to the SS."

�The last stronghold of the Uprising surrendered. Some high-ranking officer came, as a representative of the nation, with a white flag. We led him to our battalion commander. I saw there our Major Wullenberg, Dirlewanger and other commanders. After a couple of hours the Poles arrived, with a vast number of people following them. All the wounded were placed in a huge warehouse of a vinegar factory. We were ordered to leave. From the outside we heard screams and shots. I know what happened there."

�During the last days of the Uprising I ran across Fels. He was seriously wounded, but survived our shots. I carefully avoided him. I saw Dirlewanger for the last time � he was walking among the ruins accompanied by two beautiful women. The city was burning, dead bodies were everywhere in the streets. His leather coat was worn out. The women � one blonde, one brunette � were very elegant, clean. They were chattering away happily. I didn't know if these women were Polish � I was too far."

�The remnants of Warsaw were being blown up by demolition squads. We were relocated, but in November we returned to Warsaw once again. We were playing soccer. The ball fell into a cellar. I jumped in to bring it back. In the cellar there were uncountable human bodies, now almost skeletons.�...

# ¿ Aug 20, 2016 15:12

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Raenir Salazar posted:

I'm having difficulty figuring out if this is even "wrong" from a military perspective assuming his premises are "right".

1. The CPC's and KMT's feuding throughout the 1937-1945 Pacific War was so dysfunctional to the overall war effort that the Americans weren't particularly fond of propping up the Chinese war effort if it meant Chiang mostly sitting on his hands in preparation of fighting the Communists.

2. Japan had something like over a million soldiers in China. The fighting in Burma and the islands was hard enough, why also fight them in China where they had their best troops and best supplied positions? Also those troops weren't going anywhere nor did Japan have the shipping to move them to fight on the Islands.

Basically what were the Americans supposed to do? Also they tried to use B-29's to bomb Japan from China, it wasn't working.

Also, August Storm. The Soviet Union had China well in hand.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2016 03:06

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

ArchangeI posted:

Mahan and his The Influence of Seapower was hugely influential on early 20th century naval thinking.

Mahan is fascinating in terms of his influence on naval thinking and how things bore out in history. He studied the use of sea power in the 17th and 18th centuries (this book was written at the end of the 19th), particularly focusing on the rise and reign of the British Empire. His analysis boiled down to the key to the British Empire in its global superpower and economic juggernaut was the Royal Navy and its control of the seas. His central idea, which was hugely impactful on Europe and North America, was that for a nation with a large coastline, prosperity could be attained by colonialism and kept by a powerful navy, particularly a navy focusing on large capital ships.

It's hard to understate just how much 20th century naval thinking and colonial geopolitics were influenced by Mahan. Everyone knew that Britain's colonies made the Empire rich beyond measure and that Britain's fleet was essential to creating and preserving that empire. One of the most significant factors for the British in the War of 1812, for example, was the prospect of growing American naval power and mercantile expansion, that the Americans might become a dire threat to British prosperity and security. Everyone who was everyone in the early 20th century read Mahan and his theories, and this had a lot of influence on the last gasp of colonialism that erupted around that time.

Mahan's work coincided with a technological revolution in naval technology as well, the death knell of the age of sail and the birth of the modern all-steel warship as exemplified by HMS Dreadnought. Mahan argued that whoever had the biggest and best capital ship fleet would have the best guarantee of its empire and the prosperity it brought - or the tool to build such an empire. These simultaneous revolutions in naval and geopolitical thinking, and naval technology, lead more or less directly to every naval arms race you've ever read about in the early to mid 20th century. Two especially salient examples would be Germany and Japan, which did not at the time possess much of a fleet or many overseas possessions, but both wanted the prosperity promised by Mahan's thinking and began building fleets to get it. Of course, the British Empire didn't take kindly to any notion of being unseated from its position of naval - and therefore economic - primacy.

However, anyone familiar with WW2 naval history knows that the big-gun warship ultimately proved something of a while elephant. Battleships were important tools of geopolitics, but as far as military use went they were somewhat inconclusive in WW1 and outright of marginal use in WW2. Mahan failed to anticipate the development and maturation of the submarine and aircraft carrier during the 20th century, ships and capabilities that dramatically altered the calculus of geopolitics in general and colonialism in general.

That said, I wouldn't disregard Mahan and his theories as completely wrong. He absolutely was right about the geopolitical power of naval power projection, but that power projection has found its true incarnation in the 20th and 21st centuries in the aircraft carrier.

# ¿ Aug 25, 2016 21:09

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Bit of a tough sell on the carrier comment considering he wrote The Influence of Seapower Upon History in 1890, a decade before heavier than air flight was achieved. It's a bit of a tough sell on the submarine, too as they were highly experimental. Peral and Gymnote represented the state of the art at the time, and both were non-viable as war fighting weapons.

That would be my point, yes. Mahan failed to anticipate their development (in the case of the carrier) or the maturation of the submarine. Mahan wrote his theories in a naval world ruled by the battleship and did not anticipate the rise of two new types of warship that completely up-ended things once the technologies and doctrines involved matured.

# ¿ Aug 25, 2016 21:48

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

ArchangeI posted:

So Clausewitz and Jomeni are irrelevant because neither predicted COIN warfare?

That isn't my point.

My point is that Mahan's theories, while hugely influential on early to mid 20th century military naval thinking, were ultimately flawed. There were two major, worldwide wars during the era of Mahanian naval thinking, and the validity of that thinking was proven to be at best questionable. The big gun battleship was not the decisive arm of war except in a few instances, and the 20th century ultimately heralded the end of traditional colonialism.

I think it's important to understand Mahan and his work if you're interested in 20th century naval history or to a lesser extent 20th century geopolitics in general, but my read of history is that Mahanian naval doctrines proved deeply flawed at best and were not vindicated by history. The maturation of the submarine and the development and maturation of the aircraft carrier are two particularly striking examples of how Mahan's theories ultimately were limited.

hard counter posted:

I'll keep that in mind when I come to it. In general with more dated works you're looking less at its finer details, which could be very period specific, and more at the underlying thinking and the rationales presented. Thanks.

Essentially, I think Mahan's book was a very good work of history and absolutely shouldn't be discounted for its historical significance and influence on naval thinking and worldwide geopolitics. But as a guidebook for the future, as many naval thinkers used it, it was a very flawed document that failed to anticipate major world events and technological developments that lay just decades down the road.

Whether Mahan intended his book to be anything more than a work of history, is beyond my ability to say.

Cythereal fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Aug 25, 2016

# ¿ Aug 25, 2016 22:08

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

lenoon posted:

That's why you add in the other great cavalry commanders, let Cromwell deal with the logistics.

Edit: I'm pleased and impressed at how quickly the Cast of Expendables 30 ~~year war~~ was put together

I'd think Dwight Eisenhower would have a rightful place in such a dream team.

# ¿ Aug 27, 2016 17:11

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Dream team of admirals could be fun. Horatio Nelson, Chester Nimitz, and John Jellicoe are a good starting point.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 02:48

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Delivery McGee posted:

I'd pick Bull Halsey instead of Nimitz, because he was more in the vein of the other two. Kind of the whole point of the action at Leyte Gulf was to lure the Japanese fleet into the guns of the American battleships, but then Halsey fell for the decoy and took the Iowas off after the empty enemy carriers, and Taffy 3 and a couple of ancient BBs actually won the battle. Halsey really wanted to outdo Jellicoe, but missed his chance.

And add either D�nitz or Rickover for the submarine command.

Edit: Jellicoe wasn't THAT great, on the whole. He was the next best thing to Nelson, but ... using Nelson's tactics and kinda-maybe winning the big battle of his time, not a decisive victory like Nelson had. I'd swap him out for a destroyer guy in the all-star team, to cover all the bases.

Eh, I think I'd want Nimitz for overall strategic command. Nelson or Jellicoe for actually leading the fleet on the flagship. Nelson and Jellicoe would probably be a great tag-team in the field, but I say look no further than the man who won the Pacific War as the big cheese.

Halsey might be the man for the destroyers, though I keep thinking the WW2 IJN had to have a good destroyer guy given how proficient and dangerous Japanese destroyers and their crews were. I'm not very familiar with the IJN's leadership outside Yamamoto, though, so I don't know if there is such a candidate. Nagumo, maybe? Shattered Sword says he a pretty good destroyerman, just hopelessly out of his depth with carriers. Yamamoto himself... I could see him as the navy all-star carrier dude, but only if his bosses could keep him on a tight leash.

Loath as I am to praise a Nazi, I'd go with D�nitz for the submarine command. Rickover's big thing was recognizing and pioneering revolutionary technology in the fleet, but D�nitz I think has the edge for actually commanding submarine operations at war.

Cythereal fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Aug 29, 2016

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 14:36

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

FAUXTON posted:

Halsey

Make John Paul Jones Yamamoto's flag captain. Jones actually was a [Russian] admiral, but I think I'd want him as someone's captain rather than a flag officer himself. He might adapt well to destroyer command, though.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 15:26

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

FAUXTON posted:

Oh sure shack Yamamoto up with someone who was a Russian admiral, that'll go well. I can just imagine Yamamoto poo poo-talking Jones about stuff that happened centuries after his death.

"HEY rear end in a top hat DID YOU KNOW YOUR NAVY MINED ITSELF INTO A HARBOR?"

Eh, John Paul Jones was a certified mercenary and soldier of fortune. An extremely illustrious American naval commander who earned the moniker "Father of the American Navy," later a Russian admiral, and later tried to sell his services to Sweden who declined. I think JPJ's response to Yamomoto's poo poo talking would be "Ha ha, at least my battleships didn't run away from some destroyers and escort carriers!"

In this naval dream team, I think Yamamoto would be a great man for the carrier division, but he badly needs someone who can keep him under control. Assuming such a man could be found... I think my nominations would be:

Supreme Commander: Chester Nimitz
Fleet Commander: Horatio Nelson
Surface Command: John Jellicoe
Carrier Command: Isoroku Yamamoto
Submarine Command: Karl Donitz
Destroyer Command: Arleigh Burke

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 17:22

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

xthetenth posted:

What did Yamamoto do in his capacity as a carrier commander that was so remarkable? Pearl was a huge win but he won it wearing the overall commander's hat. I'd just as soon have Fletcher, they both made some mistakes, but Fletcher's fit better for the role of carrier commander, I'd think. Letting the Japanese make their getaway from Savo Island is no worse than Yamamoto's various piecemeal deployments.

For all his faults, Yamamoto was very innovative and is one of the big men to think of for transforming the aircraft carrier from a curiosity into a serious weapon of war. Certainly it took the Americans with their mammoth industrial capacity and vastly superior (and less literally murderous) organization and leadership to fully mature the carrier division into its modern incarnation, but as long as someone's around to rein him in I think Yamamoto is one of the premier guys for carriers in history.

Fletcher or Halsey would also be fine, and Spruance would fit in nicely, but I also kind of wanted to look a bit more outside the USN and Royal Navy for the dream team theorizing. Unfortunately, the Americans and Brits do tend to dominate the winner's sides of naval history. Tōgō Heihachirō also bears serious consideration for the surface commander role, but the Russo-Japanese War was so weird in a lot of respects that I'm hesitant to put him over Jellicoe or Halsey.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 17:38

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

xthetenth posted:

The early condottieri class ships were hellishly vulnerable, too. That didn't help.

Also if I had to go to WWII era war blind, I'd probably pick Frederick Sherman to command the carriers. His idea with SBDs as an inner screen against torpedo bombers when presented with a doctrinal lack of fighters was an interesting idea that shows a good grasp of what a carrier fight entails. Sucked for the dive bomber pilots but it did help the carriers out. Also Thach gets the highest position he can have while still in a cockpit. It's not an accident that Yorktown's strikes were so well put together. I have a feeling that there'd be a good number of Japanese guys in the group, considering how well put together their strikes were.

I really need to get more reading done and start effortposting about carriers.

The man you want from the IJN is Genda Minoru, one of the primary minds behind the establishment of the Kido Butai as an organized striking force.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 17:54

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

HEY GAL posted:

is it that you don't think he had an opponent that was worth the fight?

Combination of that and, while Togo's victory was undeniably brilliant, the IJN - and the entire Imperial Japanese leadership - took completely the wrong lessons from the war in general and the landmark naval battle in particular. Many of Imperial Japan's problems in WW2 boiled down to them going into the war expecting it to be Russo-Japanese War 2: Pacific Boogaloo. While this is obviously no fault of Togo's and he was genuinely a great admiral, it nevertheless gives me pause considering putting him on a WW2-or-later naval dream team.

If our naval dream team is being called forth for a ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny with WW1 or interwar technology, though (i.e. before the aircraft carrier and submarine have matured into serious instruments of war), Tōgō Heihachirō would definitely have a place of honor.

WW2 is fascinating in looking at naval history with an eye towards the technology involved for their impact on how naval war is fought. If you asked me to divide the history of naval war into a few distinct eras based on how they're fought, I'd use the technology involved as guidelines. I think my answer would be something like this:

Classical Age: Antiquity up through the 15th century or so. Gunpowder is nonexistent or in its infancy, most naval battles are fought by ramming and boarding. Ship-to-ship weapons are uncommon and rarely effective, mainly consisting of land weapons adapted to naval use like catapults and ballistas. Sailing technology itself is primitive and ships poorly maneuverable, and naval battles are mostly restricted to shallow waters close to shore.

Gunpowder Age: 15th century through the early 19th. This is the Age of Sail, here delineated by the maturation of cannons and firearms into practical weapons. Ships become much more maneuverable and seaworthy, and battles in the open sea become common. Hulls are still exclusively wooden and cannons the dominant weapons, though new weapons and technologies including torpedoes, submarines, and steam power make their first appearances towards the end of this era.

Ironclad Age: 19th century through WW1. Wooden-hulled ships give way to ironclads and soon all-metal construction, accompanied by significant advances like the breech-loading turret, the radio, and the maturation of coal-fired steam power. This is the age of the battleship and the big gun, when gun caliber and armor thickness are the primary maritime dick measuring tools. Submarines start to become serious weapons of war during this time, though, as the torpedo and mine mature alongside oil-fueled steam power and electric batteries. In the later years of this era, heavier than air flight and the aircraft carrier enter the field but are yet unproven.

Distant Age: WW2 up through the 1970s. The aircraft carrier and submarine displace and soon entirely obsolete the battleship and the gun as the dominant weapons of war at sea. Ranges of naval engagements begin to escalate dramatically, soon opposing fleets begin to fight without ever laying eyes on their enemies. Airplanes and guided weapons - both torpedoes and missiles - become the weapons of choice, and nuclear power appears and matures. Stealth technology appears towards the end of this time.

Stealth Age: 1980s through the present. Large-scale naval battles become rare outside of COIN style engagements, and with an eye towards the hypothetical large-scale naval clash the tug of war between weapon and armor seems to have finally been settled in favor of the former. If you can see it you can hit it, and if you can hit it you can kill it. Stealth and overwhelming firepower replace armor as the primary defense of warships facing threats like cruise missiles. In the absence of serious naval wars, it's impossible to say how things would "really" work out in such a conflict.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 18:51

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

HEY GAL posted:

that isn't his fault, any more than gustavus adolphus's success with the frontal assault is responsible for general horn's failure with it two years after he was dead

True, though I still prefer Jellicoe as surface commander in this naval wanking for his organizational capabilities, and the fact that the High Seas Fleet that Jellicoe was much better constructed, maintained, trained, and lead than the Second Pacific Fleet that Togo smashed.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 19:01

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

If "capacity to put up with irritating subordinates/bosses" is a factor to weigh, Jellicoe also deserves a medal for putting up with Beatty and Churchill.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 19:04

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

If you're interested in why and how WW1 happened - not the actual war itself, but all the geopolitical and military clusterfuckery that lead to it - I strongly recommend The Sleepwalkers and The Guns of August. Guns of August is a bit dated now and The Sleepwalkers is a much more recent work, but they're both good reads if you're interested in the subject. If you can only read one, though, I'd say Sleepwalkers.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2016 14:22

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Delivery McGee posted:

At least a few claimed Panther kills were probably because the transmission shat itself at the same time somebody shot at it and missed.

I think mud claimed more Big Cats than the Red Army and USAAF combined.

Edit: Naval question for someone who understands more about carriers than I do to start the new page. It came up recently in another thread that the IJN at one point welded two light carriers together side by side for a catamaran design, and I've been playing a science fiction game where one of the carrier designs you can use is this:

I've never seen anything about a carrier design like that in real life with the side-by-side flight decks and very long angled sections (I know there are angled parts on some modern carriers), but it looks interesting and I'm curious if there's anything to the flight deck layout or if it's just a sci-fi game going with something that looks cool.

Cythereal fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Sep 13, 2016

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 04:38

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

OpenlyEvilJello posted:

Yeah, Nibai isn't a real thing, it's a funky alt-history thing. Sorry if I accidentally misled you there.

E: Here's the main page for it.

Yup, I got bamboozled. The IJN did enough bizarre poo poo during WW2 that I took that thing at face value.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 14:05

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

OwlFancier posted:

Surely a mortar team would be more effective?

Sometimes you just don't have mortars on hand.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 18:27

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

HEY GAL posted:

black plumes are extremely my poo poo

I think those are marching band uniforms. :v:

I was in my high school's marching band and we had white plumes for the rank and file, black plumes for the section leaders.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2016 21:32

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

HEY GAL posted:

those are west point uniforms, my friend

...

You're not joking, are you. This does not enhance my respect for America's armed forces.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2016 21:46

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

SeanBeansShako posted:

Plumes, pom poms and feathers are all vital elements of a good early to mid 19th century uniform.

And most marching band uniforms invoke the imagery of those uniforms. Bonus points for sashes and those strappy things across the chest, which my high school's band had on our uniforms. We were in dark green, black, silver trim, and white plumes for line members and black plumes for the section leaders.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2016 22:04

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

A while back, I mentioned that the US military in WW2 had drawn up plans to deploy chemical weapons en masse against the Japanese Home Islands - the American chemical arsenal being the largest and most sophisticated in the world. It was justifiably pointed out that the article about it I dug up was from a less-than-good source, but I found another article about it from the US Naval Institute as well:

quote:

During the summer of 1945, as millions of U.S. servicemen planned for two massive invasions of Japan and several thousand others were engaged in the Manhattan Project to develop the atomic bomb, a handful of Army officers had another plan to end the war.

Major General William N. Porter, chief of the Army's Chemical Warfare Service, orchestrated a scheme to kill an estimated five million Japanese with poison gas. A document kept under wraps for five decades, the 29-page, "A Study of the Possible Use of Toxic Gas in Operation Olympic," details the ultimate attack.

Strategic bombers (B-29s and B-24s) would drop 56,583 tons of poison-gas bombs in the first 15 days of what the document called the "initial gas blitz." And they were to drop another 23,935 tons of gas bombs every month that the war dragged on or until all targets had been hit.

When landings began in November, tactical fighters and attack planes were to drop another 8,971 tons in the first 15 days, followed by 4,984 tons of bombs every 30 days. Other planes would swoop low, using spray tanks to spread thousands of tons of liquid gas over Japanese defenders. During the landings, U.S. troops would bring ashore 67 Army battalions of 105-mm and 155-mm howitzers and 4.2-inch mortars that were to fire about 1,400 tons of gas shells every 30 days.

Against unprotected troops�or civilians�these weapons would have been devastating. Against protected troops they would have caused casualties and, equally important, forced defenders to fight in restrictive gas masks and protective capes. Thus far in the Pacific War, neither side had used chemical weapons.

This proposal was the culmination of more than a year and a half of intensive planning by the Army's Chemical Warfare Service. Senior military leaders first considered the concept in November 1943, after almost 1,000 U.S. Marines were killed taking Tarawa Atoll from determined and fanatical defenders . A month later, General Porter wrote: "The initiative in gas warfare is of the greatest importance. We have an overwhelming advantage [over the Japanese] in the use of gas. Properly used gas could shorten the war in the Pacific and prevent loss of many American lives." 1 The core rationale of U.S. military commanders was simple; they perceived the use of chemical�and also biological�weapons as a way to save lives. And the option remained on their minds as Allied assaults moved closer and closer to the Japanese home islands.

In April 1944, U.S. Army chemical warfare and air intelligence officers prepared "Selected Aerial Objectives for Retaliatory Gas Attack on Japan," highly detailed studies of Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Yawata, and adjacent cities and suburban areas. This analysis examined the climatic conditions, construction characteristics, street layout, and other features of Japanese cities to determine vulnerability to gas attacks.

The secret 1944 report noted, for example, "The gas attack program is aimed primarily at causing the maximum number of casualties, crippling transportation and public services, complicating and delaying the repair of HE [high explosive] bomb damage and making targets more vulnerable to incendiary attack."

Japanese cities were particularly vulnerable to gas attack, notably because residential areas were constructed almost entirely of wood, and "Liquid mustard [gas] is readily absorbed by wood which is almost impractical to decontaminate."

Meanwhile, U.S. forces were pushing relentlessly toward the Japanese home islands, using conventional weapons and methods for amphibious landings on Peleliu, the Marianas, the Philippines, Iwo Jima, and, on 1 April 1945, Okinawa. The landings were becoming more costly, however; tenacious Japanese defenders ashore were being aided by kamikaze attacks against U.S. warships and transports.

The U.S. death toll was inciting strong reactions. "You can cook them with Gas," read an editorial headline in The Chicago Tribune on 11 March 1945, as U.S. troops were fighting on Luzon and Iwo Jima with heavy losses. The editorial declared the charge that poison gas "is inhumane" as "both false and irrelevant. ... The use of gas might save the lives of many hundreds of Americans and of some of the Japanese as well."

In May 1945, General Joseph Stilwell, soon to take command of the Tenth Army on Okinawa, wrote to General of the Anny George C. Marshall, Anny Chief of Staff, about the pending invasion of Japan. His suggestions concluded: "Consideration should be given to the use of gas. We are not bound in any way not to use it, and the stigma of using it on the civilian population can be avoided by restricting it to attack on military targets."

On 29 May 1945, General Marshall told Secretary of War Henry Stimson:

... of gas and the possibility of using it in a limited degree, say on the outlying islands where operations were now going on or were about to take place. [Marshall] spoke of the type of gas that might be employed. It did not need to be our newest and most potent�just drench them and sicken them so that the fight would be taken out of them�saturate an area, possibly with mustard, and just stand off. ... The character of the weapon was no less humane than phosphorous [sic] and flame throwers and need not be used against dense populations or civilians-merely against those last pockets of resistance that had to be wiped out but had no other military significance." 2

On 9 June 1945, three officers of the Army's Chemical Warfare Service submitted the ultimate, top-secret gas attack plan to General Porter, who approved it.

The Army planners had chosen 50 "profitable urban and industrial targets," with 25 cities listed as "especially suitable for gas attacks." The report declared, "Gas attacks of the size and intensity recommended on these 250 square miles of urban population ... might easily kill 5,000,000 people and injure that many more."

The use of gas was to begin 15 days before the landings�starting with a drenching of much of Tokyo, because an "attack of this size against an urban city of large population should be used to initiate gas warfare." Planners targeted 17.5 square miles directly north of the Imperial Palace and west of the Sumida River. Almost a million people would be in that area at the time of the first strike. Within two miles of the target area were 776,000 more Japanese; they probably would be in the path of wind-carried gas. (Ironically, the size of the targeted area was almost exactly the same as the area of Tokyo burned out by the B-29 firebombing on the night of 9-10 March 1945. But the chemical warfare planners made no reference to bombing damage to cities on the target list.)

The attack on Tokyo was to begin at 0800, when the greatest number of people would be concentrated in the city. Four-engine B-29 and B-24 bombers would drop either 21 ,680 gas bombs weighing 500 pounds or 5,420 bombs weighing 1,000 pounds, depending upon their availability. All would be filled with a gas known as phosgene.

During subsequent attacks on other Japanese targets�both by U.S. aircraft and artillery�three additional types of gas�hydrogen cyanide, cyanogen chloride, and mustard�were set to be used. (Phosgene and mustard gas had caused many thousands of casualties in World War I.)

Mustard gas would be used against Yawata and the nearby cities of Tobata, Wakamatsu, and Kokura, a highly industrialized area. The objective was to "hamper operations and produce mustard gas vapor casualties" among the 279,200 people in the gas attack zones. "Refresher attacks" would launch every six days until the first frost.

In direct support of the invasion of Kyushu, cyanogen chloride bombs were to be dropped on Japanese troop units around Goshima, the chief city on Kyushu. Raids on reserve troops, however, would likely "produce large numbers of casualties among the unprotected urban population of Kagoshima." Gas attacks, the report continued, "should be coordinated with the 'softening up' bombardment of the beaches prior to landing."

Extremely detailed analyses of city layouts even paid attention to the width of streets and the location of parks. Discussing one gas-attack zone in Yokohama, for example, the report said: "Zone I covers the center of the city proper, a triangular area congested with residential and mercantile structures. This is the most densely populated region in the city. Dense clusters of low residences, broken only by narrow streets, extend inward. The northern and western parts of this district are covered with cheap native shops and theaters. There are no large factories in this zone and comparatively few household shops."

Army planners believed that Japanese officials would not evacuate cities, even after the first wave of poison-gas attacks, because of the strain that mass evacuation would place on the transportation system and because workers were needed to keep factories operating.

Target selection was based on the thesis that "... most Japanese cities of over 100,000 population are located on or very near the coast, a fact of significance for gas attack because it aids identification and exposes them to daily land-sea winds .... There are few open spaces in most Japanese cities. There are a number of parks in Tokyo but few elsewhere ...." Noting that about 70% to 80% of the roofs in typical cities were tiled and the rest sheet metal, the report says that both types "are easily penetrated by gas bombs."

Cities were "studied in considerable detail for the purpose of preparing gas zone maps," depending upon the density of population. The greater the concentration of people, the better the gas target.

Only five copies of the top-secret report of 9 June were made. On 14 June, other documents show, Fleet Admiral Ernest J. King, Commander in Chief, U.S. Fleet, received a secret report on the use of poison gas from General Marshall.

The timing of the discussion between King and Marshall strongly suggests that poison gas was discussed at the 18 June 1945 meeting in the White House on the invasion of Japan. The minutes of that meeting refer to other, undisclosed topics. One was revealed later to be the atomic bomb.

The newly available report of 9 June strongly indicates that another object of discussion at the White House on 14 June was the massive use of poison gas.

On 21 June, according to one of the documents, orders went out to step up production of several poison-gas types so that stockpiles could satisfy the massive amounts urged in the plan.

The Army's Edgewood (Maryland) Arsenal and civilian laboratories already were researching toxic gases extensively, and factories were producing toxic materials as well as weapons. The first poison-gas plant was at Warners in New York state, which opened in April 1944. Initially, it produced 15 tons of cyanogen chloride per day, later increasing to 60 tons per day. By mid-1945 several additional plants were producing toxic gases, and several more remote areas were being used to test them. In 1942 a chemical test area had been set up in the desert wasteland of Utah, including part of the Dugway Valley, and at Fort Sibert in Alabama. Other chemical test sites, with more tropical conditions, were at Bushnell, Florida, and San Jose Island in Panama. Toxic U.S. weapons were also tested on Brook Island in the Australian state of Queensland, as well as at smaller test facilities in Canada and India. (Massive numbers of U.S. toxic weapons were also stored in Australia.)

Weapons intended to destroy tanks, planes, or even buildings could be tested against inanimate objects. But toxic gases were meant for human targets. Thus, volunteers�thousands of U.S. and Australian servicemen�were experimentally exposed. The precise number of men on whom gases were tested may never be known, but the U.S. Navy alone had at least 65,000 test volunteers from the Great Lakes training station near Chicago. 3

The Army and the Navy conducted several research projects, and the Navy had a 1O-by-15-by-17-foot chemical weapon test chamber at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., across the Potomac River from the suburb of Alexandria, a few miles from the Capitol. Several men could be exposed to gases for up to an hour to test the effectiveness of gas as well as protective clothing, masks, and ointments. The volunteers were alternately exposed to the gas wearing ordinary and protective clothing, plus gas masks. Although the volunteers were monitored closely and examined before and after the tests, many suffered injuries. 4 In Australia, volunteers wearing normal clothing and gas masks worked moving sandbags in the gas chambers. Many were hospitalized, often with the skin around the scrotum and underarm burned raw. 5

By 1945, almost 51 million chemical artillery shells, more than 1,000,000 chemical bombs, and more than 100,000 aircraft spray tanks were available. 6 Also in the new arsenal were mustard-gas land mines made from rectangular, one-gallon tin cans, commonly used for varnish or syrup. The ten pounds of mustard in the can were detonated by a slow-burning fuse or electrical current, and the gas would spread over a considerable area. They were intended as booby traps or for contaminating fields, roads, or buildings. By April 1945 more than 43,000 such mines reposed in Pacific stockpiles. 7 Other chemicals were mass-produced but were not used in specific weapons.

This huge U.S. chemical arsenal was intended for a multi-front war, supporting U.S. combat operations in Europe and the Mediterranean as well as the Pacific and Southwest Pacific areas. In 1945, it was proposed, all of this arsenal of toxic gases would be used to drench the Japanese home islands�creating some 5,000,000 Japanese casualties while saving countless U.S. lives.

The exchange between General Marshall and Admiral King on 14 June 1945 addressed the fanatical Japanese resistance being encountered in the Pacific. Marshall's memorandum to King stated: "Gas is the one single weapon hitherto unused which we can have readily available which assuredly can greatly decrease the cost in American lives and should materially shorten the war." 8

Only 50-odd years later has the scope of the plan for that weapon's ultimate use come to light.

1 Memorandum from MGEN William N. Porter to LGEN Joseph McNamey, 17 Dec 1943; War Department file OPD 385.

2 Assistant Secretary of War John J. McCloy, Memorandum of Conversation with GEN Marshall, "Objectives towards Japan and Methods of Concluding the War with Minimum Casualties," 29 May 1945.

3 Rexmond C. Cochrane, "Medical Research in Chemical Warfare" (Aberdeen, MD: Aberdeen Proving Ground, U.S. Army [n .d.; 1946]), Monograph, 163, 167.

4 See, for example, Naval Research Laboratory, "Chamber Tests with Human Subjects, IX. Basic Tests with H Vapor," in Constance M. Pechura and David P. Rail (ed.), Veterans at Risk: The Effects of Mustard Gas and Lewisite (Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press, 1993), p. 361.

5 Karen Freeman, "The Unfought Chemical War," The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists (December 199 1), p. 32.

6 A detailed breakdown of chemical munitions is provided in Leo P. Brophy, et. al., The Chemical Warfare Service: From Laboratory to Field (Washington, D.C.: Center of Military History, U.S. Army, 1988), p. 65.

7 Ben R. Baldwin, et. al., Readiness for Gas Warfare in the Theaters of Operations (manuscript in National Archives), pp. 449, 454.

8 Memorandum from GEN Marshall to ADM King, 14 June 1945, enclosing "Memorandum entitled U.S. Chemical Warfare Policy."

Mr. Polmar and Mr. Allen are coauthors of Codename Downfall: The Secret Plan to Invade Japan and Why Truman Used the Atomic Bomb (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1995). Their Proceedings article "Invasion Most Costly" (August 1995) won them the Naval Historical Center's Rear Admiral Ernest M. Eller Award.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 15:36

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

OwlFancier posted:

That was sort of the second world war in a nutshell for most parties concerned.

Also, it was the Japanese Home Islands. Absent a spontaneous Japanese surrender, there simply weren't any good options there.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 17:33

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

spectralent posted:

This is literally all soviet tanks to 95% of amateur milhist nerds.

And most American tanks. Tommy Cookers, anyone?

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 17:43

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

americong posted:

I'm sure this one has been discussed to death, but what do the posters in this thread feel was the motivation for the use of the atomic bomb?

The grade-school explanation is "to avoid the costs of invasion"; I have been exposed to an alternate explanation that basically suggests that the American generals really badly wanted to be the ones occupying Japan, as opposed to the Russians.

I've also heard that US-Japan communications suffered from poor translation.

If there's a better post about this somewhere just go ahead and link me.

The old thread explicitly banned this particular subject. It always comes down to fruitless arguing over whether the atomic bomb was justified or not and it never goes anywhere interesting.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 22:49

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

The Belgian posted:

Cythereal's post a higher up on this page give a nice idea of part of what the alternative would entail.

In short: there were a number of options on hand for ending the Pacific War in the absence of a Japanese surrender that was not likely in the political and leadership climate of Japan at the time. All of those options were different scales and types of horrible. The atomic bomb, the massive use of chemical weapons, Operation Olympic, and Operation Starvation to name some of the biggest. All of them involved mass civilian death.

The atomic bomb was used because it was the option President Truman chose.

If you wish to discuss the morality or costs of the atomic bomb, in isolation or vis a vis one of the other options available to Truman, please take it to another thread. The MilHist threads have been bogged down many times before in these arguments which invariably lead nowhere.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 23:14

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

For me, it's some of aviation's achievements in the mid-20th century that still astound me. The Valkyrie and Blackbird would be really interesting planes if they were revealed today, but they're creeping towards being half a century old if not there already.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2016 17:07

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

HEY GAL posted:

now imagine all of that by hand, in the middle of a 17th century army camp

I'm pretty sure a Blackbird could render a 17th century army combat ineffective just by doing a few low passes at full power overhead.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2016 17:14

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Boiled Water posted:

Gay black Wilhelm II question: What would've happened in a war of British Empire v. US of A? I mean the US can hardly be blockaded.

What year? There was a war between the British Empire and USA, the War of 1812.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2016 15:32

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 09:35

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Boiled Water posted:

Sorry I meant in context of WWI.

The US actually had a plan for this immediately after WW1: War Plan Red, codifying existing thoughts and plans into one unified strategic plan. The American plan was simple: invade Canada, use the navy to protect the coasts and interdict British reinforcements, and don't strike elsewhere.

The British plans were ship troops to Canada, invade the Philippines, and attack American shipping around the world, making opportunistic raids against the American mainland as possible.

Setting this during WW1 makes Britain's situation that much harder due to how thinly the British Empire was already stretched both militarily and economically. The British Empire had its hands very full already and American entry into the war against Britain would probably have resulted in general defeat for the UK, even if America wasn't explicitly aligned with the Central Powers.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2016 15:43

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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