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Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

JcDent posted:

Snake lacks a pike.

Snakes are basically pikes if you think about it

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Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

ChubbyChecker posted:

imo rolling over someone is provoking, even if you do it without tanks

[scene opens - A nazi is in the middle of being interrogated. A light shines intensely on the German]

And you say that you were provoked by the Polish people to attack them?

*The Nazis tries to loosen his collar, sweating profusely*

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
I hope there's a follow-up article with the Netherlands represented by The Incredible Hulk and he says "ITS CLOGGERIN' TIME!"

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
https://i.imgur.com/Eu79k5j.gifv

Restored 88mm FlaK - Live Fire

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
https://i.imgur.com/Z80njup.gifv

B-29 Tail Gunner POV

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Phanatic posted:

Most. It was considerably more expensive than the Manhattan Project.

I think the most expensive WW2 project for anyone, by far, was the Atlantic Wall.

False! They weren't billable hours and the workers knew it.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

feedmegin posted:

One would assume 'if battleship development had continued' implies 'noone invents the aircraft carrier' and thus also neither aircraft nor missilea.

But... aircraft developed independently of naval doctrine?

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
WW2 Data

More USA Chemical and "Fire" Bombs. Which bombs are filled with mustard gas, W.P., gasoline gel, Napalm, and more! Just what exactly is PWP? What is the dispersal area for a 500-pound AN-M76 bomb, and what is its contents - PT 1 - composed of? How fast can a 1,000-pound Chemical bomb cover an area 100-yards in diameter after "detonating"? What gasoline-Napalm mixture do the "fire bombs" use, and why is Marinco powder used along with it?

All that and more at the blog!

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Geisladisk posted:

Why Jagdpanthers? Why did the Nazis feel the need to make a shittier turretless Panther in order to accommodate a even bigger AT gun, when the gun on the Panther was already a specialized AT gun that could handle basically any Allied tank?

The trivial answer is "nazis are dumb", but is there more to it than that?

They already had the chassis and needed something that didn't cost as much. Turns out, a turret is a pretty big expense.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
So a while ago I mentioned booby traps and mines and holy gently caress there's some stuff I hope I never have to experience. Not sure if the author, Ian Jones, is a bad one (I'm sure someone can look it up), but the book "Malice Aforethought: A history of booby traps from World War One to Vietnam" is an incredibly compelling read. It really gets into the nitty gritty "War is Hell" aspect, detailing how booby traps were first used (as we commonly know them now), how they were countered, training personnel to do so, and so on.

I'll try to skim the text and pick up any excerpts that really stand out, but I'm just flipping through pages at the moment. There's a few booby traps I'd already heard about in other literature, and there's even a mention on Kraits!


On killing other soldiers - WW1

"I saw straight to the front and a hundred yards away a crowd of men running towards us in grey uniforms. Picking up another rifle I joined him pouring rapid fire into this counter attack. We saw at least one drop, to Walker's rifle I think, and then noticed that they were running with their hands up. Laughing, we emptied our magazines into them in spite of that."


On British Ingenuity - WW1

"The ingenuity of the British soldier is proverbial. In "No Man's Land" we devised 'booby traps'. The war could not have continued for a week without canned food: and these tins served a dual purpose. They were strung together on tripwires in the most inviting places for enemy patrols, with machine guns trained upon them. Soon as the tins rattled fire was opened up with the machine guns and a patrol hurried down the ditch to bring in the quarry, a prisoner or a corpse. In the first experiment I brought samples of each."


German retaliation to the above - WW1

"But if the British soldier played with booby traps then the German was not to be denied, for they placed an elaborate explosive dummy in a ditch leading from our lines much used by our own patrols. The decoy proved, as was expected, too much for Jock's curiosity, and we lost two good men as the consequence."



Advancing on a German withdrawal - WW1

"Ah sir we have lost a lot of good fellies. The trenches were left full of booby traps. All I did was pick up a Hun's helmet from the floor of a trench and a bomb went off underneath. Lucky for me sir it was burried and I only got it slightly. Ye'll perhaps know Mr. Harcourt of the 6 Warricks, Sir? Well, he's bought it. They went over on our right and he went down a dugout, but as soon as he put his hand on the handrail, the two bottom steps blew up, and took both his legs off. He died before they could get him away."



--Examples of traps encountered during the German retreat:
-A shovel stuck into the side of a dugout between the timbers; when the shovel is removed it pulls a wire that explodes a mine.
-A French stove with stovepipe dismantled, one wire attached to the leg of the stove and the other to a stovepipe nearby; when the stovepipe is picked up a charge is fired.
-A window-weight suspended by a fine cord stretched across the entrance to a dugout; a man entering would break the cord and the weight falls on a detonator attached to a charge.
-Cap badges, artificial flowers, bits of evergreen, pieces of shell and other articles likely to be picked up as "souvenirs" left behind in dugouts and attached to charges.
-Handrails on the steps of dugouts attached by a wire to a charge.
-A timber on the side of a dugout projected slightly out at the top but was fixed at the bottom. A nail had been positioned, inviting the new owner of the dugout to drive it home and secure the timber. Behind the nail was the cap of a cartridge and an explosive charge.
-In dugouts constructed with casing, mortice-and-tenon joints, the wedging of timber where the sides had been cut and removed could indicate the position of a charge.
-A dozen stick grenades, to be fired by means if a wire attached to a sandbag which has to be moved before the door of a dugout could be opened.
-A charge in a chimney with a length of fuse attached which would be ignited should a fire be lit.
-Detonators in lumps of coal
-A book on a table with a wire running from it down a table leg to a charge hidden under the floor; this would be initiated if the book was picked up.
-Partially demolished dugouts with blown entrances were not always a sign of safety; charges were found in concealed portions of these, often using crude contact devices.
-A branch placed over an entrance to a dugout as if to conceal it. On moving the branch a short delay was initiated before an explosion was caused.



Gas shells as booby traps - WW1

"The Germans also made use of gas shells to deny troops the use of tunnels, dugouts, and cellars, and although not strictly traps, they did cause casualties. They were discovered after several men from a dressing station were seriously gassed. They had been in a German dugout in which there was the faintest smell of mustard gas. This gas, even in quite strong concentrations, does cause immediate incapacitation so the faintest smell would not be enough to worry about. However, after a few hours' exposure the sheltering soldiers developed the symptoms of mustard gas poisoning."



On using aerial bombs in North Africa - WW2

"[Referencing a failed detonation earlier] Not all were so lucky. The Australian 2/34th Battalion passed through a minefield of aerial bombs, two of which detonated. There were 28 casualties, 12 fatalities and 16 injured, including the commanding officer who was badly wounded."


Safe? - WW2

"In one case a mine was found on the surface with the igniter set to 'sicher' (safe). It looked as if it had been simple abandoned in the haste of the retreat. However, woe betide the unwary individual who picked it up because it had been set with an anti-lift device attached to the bottom of the mine."


British Switch No.8 - WW2

"The Germans suffered at the hand of the retreating British as they retreated in 1942. [...] The switch consisted of a hollow spike which was driven into the ground and which house a striker system designed to fire a round of ammunition. The action of stepping on the bullet would be sufficient to release the striker, which would fire the bullet up into the unfortunate victim."

^ Captured stores of these were subsequently used by the Germans, except they were deliberately positioned in a way to aim for a man's genitals. It was called the "De-bollocker" by the Brits, not for the S-mine.


Krazy Karl the Kooky Kraut - WW2

"[After a story of Karl losing his best friend to booby traps] 'You must approach the matter psychologically,' was his eternal cry. He could not stand for a long time in front of a house. 'Attach a mine to a door handle? That's for kids! The British did it until they got bored. It no longer takes anyone in and it does not affect the adversary's morale.' On the wall of a room a picture hung crooked. 'Tommy wouldn't bother at all about a crooked picture' Karl declared. 'But it would annoy the British officer that saw it. He would go over and put it straight. But that would be his last action on earth. Therefore, attach a fine wire to the picture leading to a charge in the plaster wall, put it breast high.'"



On deserted vehicles and long range patrols - WW2

"[...] they had drive up to inspect a derelict truck and in doing so their jeep had run over a thermos-bomb. It was not an uncommon accident, for the enemy delighted in surrounding any abandoned vehicles with such anti-personnel devices. In the explosion that followed, the jeep was set on fire and the officer badly burned. Cox, the driver, jumped out and ran round the pull the officer out, but as he did so he stepped on another bomb which exploded and shattered his leg."



All for some water - WW2

"[...] and another was wounded by a water bottle that exploded when the cork was pulled out."



Collection for training - WW2

"Most, but not all, training was done without enemy mines because of the dangers involved. Besides the risks of handling unfamiliar mines, some of the explosive fillings used became dangerous with age, particularly after being subject ot the desert's extremes of temperature. In one case a 109th Engineer Combat Battalion truck carrying some 450 neutralised, but live, mines exploded, killing an entire 12-man squad instantly.


The importance of mining - A German officer from an armoured pioneer batallion --- WW2

"A Tellermine should be laid every 50 to 100m or 100 to 200m. Very many dummy mines (metal, pieces of every kind) should be laid between the two real mines. If an enemy motor vehicle strikes a mine then they will naturally look for other mines. He will then look for other mines and find only dummy mines which will tend to irritate him, but eventually he will become careless after searching for mines along a stretch of 100m without finding anything but iron fragments. After he has become tired of searching and drives on, several other vehicles may pass over a live mine before one comes along which causes it to explode. In this way, almost every mine becomes effective and the enemy has corresponding losses. In addition, the enemy becomes very uncertain in his movements, he is greatly influenced psychologically, and ceases to have confidence in the safety of the highway even when it has been travelled by several vehicles."


Booby trapped gun - WW2

"A booby-trapped rifle was discovered in which a small explosive charge was hidden in the butt which would explode when the trigger was pulled."



Churchill AVRE - WW2

"In one town they came across there was a thick concrete roadblock on either side of the road into the middle of which a cylindrical concrete block had been rolled. This resisted nroaml tank-high explosive fire and therefore a Churchill AVRE with a Petard was requested to assist with the demolition. Using this, block in the centre of the road was reduced to rubble. Hammerton, a flail tank troop commander, was invited to go through the breach, but couldn't because the flail attachment was too large. It was decided the Petard-armed AVRE would go through and widen the break from the other side. It had just got through the gap when there was a tremendous explosion, and the 40-ton tank was shattered and thrown into the air. A jeep, which had nipped in behind the tank, simply vanished in the explosion. A naval mine with some 300 pounds of explosive had functioned under the tank, which also set off the remainder of the Petard rounds carried inside it."



Tunnel Snakes - Vietnam

"They would take a snake, we used to call them one-step, two-step, or three-step, and they were bamboo vipers. They weren't very long, but they had a very potent bite; once bitten you could only take one or two more steps. The Vietnamese somehow tied the snake into a piece of bamboo with a piece of string and as the tunnel rat goes through he knock it, and the snake comes out and bites you in the neck or face and then the blood gets to your heart very quickly. You had to make sure when you went through a tunnel you not only looked at the sides with your flash light, but also you looked at the ceiling."





And the book goes on and on. There's mention of mines in Africa (or elsewhere) stacked one on top of the other, or even 3 in total, in a hole 6 feet deep. The minesweeper finds the first, removes it, and detonates the other two thanks to an anti-lift device. Or, when 3 were used, the first was removed and the 2 made safe... just for the 3rd's anti-lift device or pressure plate to function.

Or, for example, sharpened Punji stakes "deployed" in landing zones in Vietnam. Anyone jumping off the helicopter ran the risk of injury. Grenades tied to loose branches (or small branches), at risk of being blown away from a helicopters "prop wash" could seriously injure a pilot or passengers, if not down the helicopter itself!


Its a fascinating read and everyone here should add it to their library.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

aphid_licker posted:

Are there sources given? These anecdotes are, very probably in my memory word for word, also in this guy's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carell book on North Africa (I read it as a teenager, don't judge) and I'm curious which path they took to end up there.

e: holy poo poo the belt hooks I'm crying Tears of Patriotism

Nearest source for the 1st quoted bit points to "The Valentine in North Africa 1942-43", although this may just be the source to the story immediately prior.

Source for Karl the Krazy Kraut is - "The Foxes of the Desert"


3rd one is "Notes on the experiences in mine laying and shelter construction"




Oh, I forgot stuff like dummy slit trenches that are mined/booby-trapped so that those seeking shelter either choose between open, sighted terrain, or the possibility of blowing up in a trench. Or, you spot a mine/explosive device in the street, you attach a pull wire and retreat to some convenient cover. Maybe its a trench, maybe its a doorway, whatever. You pull the rope, pulling the mine, which pulls a wire, which detonates your "safe" position.


Edit: Not to mention how dangerous anti-lift devices, or secondary fuzes, could be, that in some situations it was judged safer to simply destroy the munitions in situ and move on. Sadly, there's very little on the Russian front, save for a mention every once in a while. It's contrasted with the great section for Vietnam and another for the Japanese.

Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 16, 2018

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
Whats that they say about never meeting your heroes?

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Ithle01 posted:

These WWI traps sound like the sort of thing you hear about in the news when some dumbass survivalist blows himself up after he got drunk and forgot how to navigate his own minefield. I can imagine they probably killed as many of their own soldiers as they did the enemy's.

Usually you booby trap spots you aren't visiting yourself...

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Squalid posted:

hmm. . . this trap might work, or at least be likely enough to work for someone to give it a go

bamboo vipers (usually refers to any of several species in the Trimeresurus genus) are, unlike kraits, very common and easily handled, and might not be strong enough to force their way out of small containers. Fully grown adults may not be anymore than 40 cm. When I first read this I thought it said they were literally tying up the snake itself with string, something that I think would be rather difficult to do to an animal without hips or arms! but I think they mean the bamboo container was held together with string, which makes a lot more sense.

Looking for more information I found scattered references in several sources, the earliest being a 1968 newspaper article. Bamboo vipers were rumored to be hidden in all kinds of places. According to a mix of newspaper correspondents, modern Vietnamese tourist guides, and veteran recollections, They could be variously nailed alive above doors inside houses, tied to the ceiling of tunnels by their tale, tied to tree branches where GIs might inadvertently walk into them or grab them, and even hidden inside the VC's own rucksack so that if they were killed and searched GIs would have a nasty surprise.

Other than the bamboo container in tunnels, I think most of these are probably more legend than fact. Bamboo vipers are responsible for more bites than any other snake in much of southeast Asia. Most commonly bites are on the hand or wrist, and occur while people are picking fruit in the forest and fail to see the well camouflaged snake resting near the longan berries they were reaching for. Fortunately while venom from these snakes will definitely turn you into a casualty and ruin your month, they aren't usually fatal for healthy adults. Soldiers new to the tropics would have to be taught quickly not to reach into a damp rucksacks which have laid on the forest for days because that poo poo is just a magnet for wild scorpions and centipedes and snakes, the same reason you check your goddamn boots before you put them on, and its easy to blame charlie for all the nasty poo poo you're putting up with anyway.

Another trap mentioned, involving snakes, is related to snakes being tied to stuff, like a stick - around head height, in a cave, and hoping the GI stumbles into it, maybe grabbing a snake, and getting bit.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
https://i.imgur.com/P15BuEm.gifv

Underside view of a AIM-7 Sparrow launch and SUU-16/A 20mm cannon burst from an F-4C Phantom over Vietnam in 1965

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
poo poo, I bought Battlefield 5 before they announced this I guess I'm a nazi now.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
Remember that time when Das Boot and Cross of Iron came out in theaters and we were all nazis for liking the films?

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
I remember a time when I used to play Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe. Who would have thought that flying an Me-262 in a video game meant that I was now a nazi... :(

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Cessna posted:

I don't object to Das Boot of 1993 Stalingrad one bit. I am certainly not saying "no Nazis ever."

I AM saying "if you're going to make the Nazis the protagonists, take a long hard look at how you're doing it."




Now, that said - Das Boot doesn't take a hard look at Nazi politics, but it does take numerous political stands nonetheless. Consider:

The crew, unshaven and filthy after a long time at sea, meet with a supply ship. The supply ship's crew live in opulence, decry their frustration at not being able to fight, and give champagne toasts to the u-boat crew and "our beloved fuhrer" while the u-boat crews stare slack-jawed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hvoMyhHQHg

The 1st Watch Officer is portrayed as an ardent Nazi - blond hair, clean uniform, a family with money from their overseas estate (i.e., he's not an average joe) - and is regarded as a bit of an rear end by the rest of the crew.

The message here is clear: Nazis are assholes, and are different from the more sympathetic protagonists.

Would this be possible to tell as a story about a "regular joe in the German army"?

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Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Nenonen posted:

Stalingrad has a similar allegory when the men find out that Hauptmann Haller has hoarded supplies and even taken a sex slave while keeping extreme discipline on the grunts. You can tell any kind of story in a film or a comic or a video game.

Yeah thats my point. Thread likes to get loving weird about ww2 germans whenever it can. :shrug:

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