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He is an incredibly smart, creative and unpredictable adversary, but Snyder especially writes him as this hypergenius who's constantly one step ahead and isn't smart so much as he is supernaturally aware of what's going on and not creative so much as increasingly, artlessly violent. This character needs an enema, to borrow a phrase from a much better written Joker.
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Sep 11, 2016 18:26
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Lurdiak posted:Even that was in service to taking JERK BATGOD down a peg, which isn't quite as big a problem as modern Joker but still needs to stop being a thing. Reading Batman, Detective, and All-Star Batman this has largely stopped being a thing. I haven't been reading Justice League but so far only the writers on Nightwing seem to have missed the memo. Batman's pretty supportive and empathetic to people nowadays.
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Sep 11, 2016 21:02
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SonicRulez posted:
DAAAAD DICK SAID A SWEAR WORD TwoPair posted:Well it's not like Morrison wrote him as incompetent so Snyder was just following suit. But hell it's not Morrison's fault either, Joker's been slowly amped up to be the Best Villain Ever™ by a looooong string of writers. I think I'm harsh on Snyder because he did two massive, awful Joker storylines each within about 18 months of each other. I was really not a huge fan of Joker in Morrison's stuff but all told he's a pretty small part of it. Even reading his garbage green font or whatever it was still a solid character beat the way he was so dismissive of the Black Glove and refused to play along with their crap. I kind of hate The Joker in general, though.
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Sep 12, 2016 04:16
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Batman's only cynical in regards to himself, and that's less cynicism than his own feelings of inadequacy. He believes everyone has a chance to redeem themselves and live a happy, normal life, except for himself. Deep down he knows he's never going to be able to save Gotham to an extent that his own broken brain is going to be satisfied with, because even if Gotham turned into a crimeless utopia overnight Batman would expand his scope to the state, the country, the entire world, other planets, etc. Batman not only wants to save everybody, he cannot rest until he has saved everybody. This is completely impossible, and I think he's intentionally set himself an impossible task as penance for living while his parents die. He holds no hope for himself in his heart the way he does everyone else. This is also why Dick is his greatest achievement, because Dick can do everything Batman can do but without that sense of penance and guilt. Dick wants to be happy, and he usually is. Bruce knows he's not gonna be happy, so he might as well make the rest of the world the safest he possibly can, until it eventually kills him. As far as the Joker I think you're leaning way too heavily on flimsy in-fiction justifications for the lazy way the character's been handled over the last few decades. His whole 'reinvention' schtick is worthless when all he does is get more and more gruesomely violent and add another zero onto his body count every time he comes to town. If the Joker and Batman are written well the question of "Why doesn't Batman just kill the Joker" wouldn't come up because Joker wouldn't be committing his bi-monthly genocide. Batman wouldn't have to grit his teeth and accept that he's going to be pushing grinning corpses out of the street for the rest of his life because "oh no something even worse might happen". Writers wouldn't have to justify DC's business decisions in the text of funnybook adventures.
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Sep 12, 2016 13:35
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The slippery slope argument doesn't state that Batman wants to kill the Joker, it acknowledges that it would probably be better for everyone if he did. Everyone except for Batman, who would become the thing he hates most in the world. Batman doesn't want to kill anybody, but I think he'd be willing to bear that burden for the good of the city, even being hated and hunted for it (see: the end of Dark Knight) but once you kill one of the lunatics with a body count in the thousands, people are going to start asking why you haven't killed the others. Two-Face has killed hundreds of people. The Scarecrow has probably caused hundreds of panic related fatalities. Killer Croc eats people, for gently caress's sake. The line isn't easily drawn at "just Joker, then we're done killing" because people are still suffering and dying. And in Batman's mind, he's already done the unthinkable, he's already irredeemable, might as well keep saving lives and dealing with these guys once and for all. That's the slippery slope argument, not that Batman's a bloodthirsty killbot held at bay only by his own flimsy moral code. Jeez.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:29
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The best in-text answer to that question is that Batman doesn't kill the Joker because that's what the Joker wants him to do, and the Joker wins forever if Batman kills him. At this point that is also probably what most citizens of Gotham City want him to do too, but again he never should have gotten to this point in the first place. VV I like how you edited out the second sentence in my post that addresses how the people of Gotham would feel about this purple death ray fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 12, 2016 |
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Sep 12, 2016 18:42
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Toxxupation posted:I edited it out because it specifically invalidates your point. Oh, thanks. I really shot myself in the foot on that one. I'd sure have a hard time keeping up with the discourse without your help.
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Sep 12, 2016 21:02
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Jack of Hearts posted:Dang, Year One is the forum's favorite Batman story? Maybe I just don't "get" Batman. What are your favorite Batman stories?
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Sep 13, 2016 20:40
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I would suggest you check out the comics based directly on the 60s Batman and the Timmverse. There's tons of great comics in the B:TAS style that are basically one-and-done stories in each issue that you can hopefully get your feet in the pool without feeling like you're stuck in a long, plodding story arc.
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Sep 14, 2016 00:20
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Teenage Fansub posted:Snyder is obviously having a good time writing the other Batman comic. Yeah All Star is a goddamn rollercoaster. Fuckin A getting to see KGBeast and Amygdala, and Egghead even as a name dropped in a comic in 2016. Detective was really good, as usual. I kind of knew Tim wasn't going to die, just because I don't think DC would let that happen without a bunch of fanfare and tie-in comics and stuff months in advance. And seeing Bruce actually emotionally affected was such a welcome change. Tynion is writing the Batman I want to read about more than anybody else since Morrison's run got started. Though I wonder if they'll put anyone else on the team in Tim's place until he gets rescued.
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Sep 14, 2016 13:10
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Eh it's already out there, I'd rather at least get a good writer like Tynion the chance to play around with it and maybe do something cool.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:43
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Yup, I believe Jim legally adopted her eventually but they were not biological father/daughter. Barbara is older than James Jr. as seen in The Black Mirror when it's suspected that James Jr. has killed one of Barbara's friends. There's a one-shot with Tim Sale art showing Barbara trying to get used to life in Gotham after moving in with Jim. There were actually a lot of stories made after the fact that dealt with Jim's hosed up home life and marriage, designed to slide into that nebulous Year One/Long Halloween period during Batman's early years. His first wife takes James Jr. back to Chicago a bit before Barbara's father either dies or gets arrested and she comes to live with Jim in Gotham.
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Sep 15, 2016 00:33
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:The Detective Issue was mediocre and Tim's fate stupid. I agree, Detective was a lot of fun, and the old Red Robin costume is probably the worst costume design of the last ten years.
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Sep 15, 2016 04:53
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monkeu posted:You're dumb and wrong. Bravestoflamps.txt
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Sep 16, 2016 12:39
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Lurdiak posted:I think Batman should not killl because if murder is an acceptable solution to crime, there's really no reason for him to do anything but burst into rooms with machine guns and mow everyone down instead of getting into karate fights and using stealth. If killing becomes an acceptable solution for a man of Batman's talents and means, he'd be dropping people with gas bombs, sniper rifles, and drone attacks. No reason to even put yourself at risk. He'd become the militaristic Batman army they just spent six issues fighting.
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Sep 16, 2016 14:18
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:
You can say that if you want, but you'd be wrong. The days of "A fitting end for his lot!" kill crazy pulp hero were very shortlived. Obviously in the days of the Comics Code, nobody in tights was killing their opponents, but somewhere in that period it became a core part of Batman. It's definitely not a thing that's only happened for like 20 years. And yes I grew up on Burton's Batman, I know it's a very inaccurate portrayal of the character even though it's one of my favorite movies. Comic book movies have changed a huge amount since 1989. You can be faithful to the characters now and trust audiences to follow you. Batfleck was a huge step back in the quality of Batman in every way except visually.
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Sep 16, 2016 19:38
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:As a focus of his character it is. How much relevance is given changes accordingly to the period. Ben is a great Batman, agreed. That's kind of what I meant by visually, his costume was great and his performance was great, but the way he is written and directed is a big step back for the character. And even after he realizes what he's become, and vows to be a good dude again, hes still a murderous violent rear end in a top hat. He's learned nothing, he's just killing the 'right' people now. I don't blame Affleck for this, it's Goyer and Snyder mostly. I think the solo Batfleck movie is going to be real good.
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Sep 16, 2016 20:20
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I'm sure this made a lot of sense in your mind but What
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Sep 16, 2016 22:14
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So the Monster Men are here! I really liked the art in Batman this week, although the same tired beat of Batman trying to keep his allies out of the action to protect them is dragging the story down a bit. I'm into the action of the team just fighting straight up giant monsters though. I'm kind of expecting the injections that gave Gotham Girl her powers to be connected to the monsters somehow. What did yall think about the first two chapters of the first crossover of Rebirth?
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Sep 21, 2016 14:13
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Kurzon posted:In the earliest comics he did, before editors insisted that superheroes cease killing. Thank you for this never before revealed pearl of comics history that is definitely relevant to anything
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Sep 22, 2016 20:52
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Ehh BTAS explicitly did not dwell on Batman's beginnings, that's like the first thing in the series bible. There's a few episodes that detail his training (the Kyodai Ken episodes, Zatanna) but they're always used as a backup for the meat of each episode, same with the Year One style flashbacks in Mask of the Phantasm. In fact I'd argue that the fact that BTAS ran for a year and a half without any kind of origin story at all before Mask of the Phantasm came out underlines their dedication to that edict. Also I think the single most underdone Batman era in the modern times is when it was just Bruce and Dick so I'd love to see more adaptations move past the "I shall become a bat" phase without jumping ahead into full on Batfamily (as in the Arkham games) or straight to DKR (the movies).
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Sep 25, 2016 23:03
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James Tynion is my new favorite writer.
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Oct 4, 2016 01:23
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WickedHate posted:Now you're obligated to read his Red Hood, aka the bits even D_T didn't like. Logically they're good then
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Oct 4, 2016 02:49
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Orphan's symbol on her building looked more like she's Zsasz's sidekick than Batman's. It was alright. Yeah, a little underwhelming after the crazy bullshit going on in the earlier issues. All Star was pretty rad though. Not crazy about the backstory revisions but I'm loving all the ancient rear end characters Snyder is bringing back. He's obviously having a lot of fun writing this.
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Oct 12, 2016 21:54
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So let's talk about rogues for a bit. Rebirth has been really killer for bringing back some old and lesser-seen rogues. I had to loving google Punch and Jewlee after reading Batman #9 today. But this is all building to what looks to be a great story featuring one of my absolute favorite antagonists, Bane. Not that Bane is a lesser-seen rogue but gently caress it, he rules. Also can I just say how much the new Batman suit is growing on me? On this page alone we're namedropping the Tweedles, Kite Man, Condiment King, and Kite Man. In All Star, Snyder has either featured or namedropped everyone from Egghead to KGBeast. Tom King already brought back Colonel Blimp and Captain Stingaree and the first TWO ARCS of the new Batman book look to heavily revolve around loving Psycho Pirate. At this point a gripping saga revolving around Crazy Quilt is all but guaranteed. When will the forgotten villain craze reach the Breyfogle era and bring back Cornelius Stirk? Hopefully never.
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Oct 20, 2016 04:06
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Sorry for double posting but how exactly did Selina end up in arkham? I didn't read N52 Catwoman, so I am only aware of what she did when it crossed over with the other books in major storylines. So I am vaguely aware that she became a mob boss and tried to unseat Penguin or something right? Did she just get taken down by RICO or something? Selina being on Death Row is a mystery that presumably will be revealed in the course of the story. It was one heck of a way to end an issue though. And I'm afraid I've got to agree with Dark_Tzitzimine there, Bane is much more versatile and interesting than Doomsday. He's seriously one of my favorite villains. I don't, however, agree that Tom King won't do an amazing job with him. Because he will, and he already is.
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Oct 20, 2016 12:44
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King's Bane has been in one scene and he's managed to be both incredibly sympathetic and vulnerable and completely terrifying at the same time. I feel bad for yall if you're not on board at this point.
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Oct 21, 2016 12:38
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If you ask me Bane has the potential to be DC's Dr. Doom. I don't think many writers see that potential. But in the same way that Dr Doom will always be defined by "RICHAAAAARDS" Bane will always be defined by that time he broke Batman's spine. Trying to argue against that is futile. And you can write great stories even with that Bane, who is kind of obsessed with Batman. I would rather keep it that way, just like a Doom who isn't obsessed with Reed Richards would probably feel kind of wrong. But I don't really read Marvel so probably that's already happened, anyway. The other thing to remember is, no matter what Wally West and Geoff Johns tell you, there was a reboot in 2011 and most of those Bane stories never happened. So maybe Kings arc ends with Bane kicking the need for Psycho Pirate's influence and leaving Santa Prisca. Maybe that development Dark_Tzitzimine is bemoaning the loss of is still forthcoming. Stephanie and Cassandra lost everything about their characters in the reboot, so who's to say Bane isn't in a similar boat?
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Oct 21, 2016 18:41
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Unlucky7 posted:Can't really tell what is going on in the flashback to that first guy. LOL on the second guy, tho. This was actually an incident that happens in I think issue #1 of B&R where they chase a car full of bank robbers or something and they end up driving into some kind of nuclear waste that mutates them all into one monster, 80s sci fi movie style. Batman & Robin is so loving good.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:53
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This issue wasn't great though. A lot of macho posturing and a brief reenactment of the worst Nolan movie, followed by "that was my plan all along," and the issue ends with nothing really happening. It's like I get it, Bane breaks backs. There's a little more to the character than that. But that's pretty much all I got from this one. Real shame as I did love King's Bane last issue. And unless the narration turns out to be a huge fake out I have significant problems with Selina's new backstory.
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Nov 2, 2016 23:41
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Teenage Fansub posted:Oooh. That's what was happening. That confused me. Probably because it doesn't make any Goddamned sense to suggest that you can 'break your back into position'. Like at worst he had a dislocation back there. Bane apparently isn't actually good at the one thing they never shut the gently caress up about in this issue. BACKS! Did you know Bane once broke Batman's back? In case you didn't, we're gonna talk about BACKS! for a few more pages. I love a good over the top badass moment as much as anyone but this was just dumb. Batman and Damian are being just great over in Superman this week, though.
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Nov 3, 2016 00:45
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Teenage Fansub posted:If I looking for Pirate jesus gently caress
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Nov 4, 2016 00:56
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ComicsAlliance has a decent interview with Tom King about his Batman stories, specifically the most recent issue #12. http://comicsalliance.com/tom-king-batman-12-i-am-suicide-interview/ If you're like me you've been kind of on the fence about King's Batman run so far. I feel like every issue so far has been Just Okay, but I get the very strong feeling that the ending of his story is either going to push the whole thing into Extremely Awful or Extremely Great. It is kind of tiring reading honestly mediocre comics in the hope that it will eventually pay off but this interview at least gives me some hope that he knows what he's doing. I found the stuff about fan reaction to his Catwoman very interesting. Tom King posted:It got pretty vicious — there were people telling me to die and all sort of things. Saying, “You’re writing a Catwoman that doesn’t exist. It’s not in her character. Catwoman doesn’t kill 237 people, even if it’s justified. It’s just not who she is. That’s crazy, there’s something wrong.”
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Dec 7, 2016 22:01
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I'm still of the opinion that King could manage to thread that needle. Whatever larger story he's telling, everything he's done so far will live or die based on how well he nails his dismount and Batman so far has both been good enough and bad enough at different points in the run that I can honestly see it going either way.
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Dec 9, 2016 05:16
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Yeah the mystery is definitely not "why did Catwoman kill a bunch of people", it's "why is Catwoman insisting that she killed a bunch of people". She's probably protecting someone IMO.
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Dec 9, 2016 13:34
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Life is short, raw dog your Batman
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Dec 17, 2016 14:52
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Yeah because none of that poo poo happened since the New 52 unless a writer specifically references it. Or it did, but it was stolen by Dr. Manhattan, depending on what Geoff Johns believes on any given day. Batman was pretty good this week. I like Punch and Jewelee quite a bit, I hope they stick around. Looking forward to Bane wrecking Gotham in a few months.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:49
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:The point still stands, there's nothing stopping King from introducing a clean Bane. Well that's not the story he's writing. There's nothing stopping him from introducing an addicted Bane either. You're allowed to not like a story but man you come off like DC should be writing comics just for your tastes sometimes.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:40
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Also I have to point out again that the story isn't over. You don't know what Bane's situation is going to be once all this is settled. Just like the people assuming Catwoman is actually a mass murderer are probably jumping the gun a little bit.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:32
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Gaz-L posted:Lemme guess: Pirate's powers don't work on Scarface? Technically he only tried to use it on the Ventriloquist, not Scarface. 
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Dec 22, 2016 04:08
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