Phi230 posted:I have a suspicion that one or both of the authors read Dune recemtly because there are 2 explicit references (Holden says "spacing guild" in book 6/ mentions burrowing worms the size of starships in book 8) Not too surprising given that their next series sounds like it's going to be a Dune-esque space opera.
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Mar 29, 2019 05:44
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Jim "Stupid, Sexy" Holden
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Apr 8, 2019 06:21
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Pretty decent book. I felt like the Naomi chapters took a bit to get going. But overall solid with a very impactful ending. Now Book 9 just needs to land the bird. I had a few structural quibbles with it, like... the italicized paragraphs during the Siege of Laconia, I thought they were, like, flashbacks to things Bobbie had once talked about given Naomi's thoughts immediately before it, and how often each chapter would begin with the lines/paragraphs of the chapter previous.
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Apr 11, 2019 08:06
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It depends on the state of the forums going forward, unfortunately. We'll see what Jeffrey can figure out.
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Jun 30, 2020 00:27
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My brain saw Leviathan ****s and went, well, I guess it's nice that they're putting out a new edition of the first novel. Thankfully they're not splitting it in two. Tiamat already left me with some serious 'please get on with it' vibes.
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Sep 17, 2020 00:48
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Ending at 6 seems a weird decision, but after seeing that one clip of Holden and Fred, I feel like Season 6 may be an abridged version of the later books.
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Nov 25, 2020 11:27
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General Battuta posted:Has there been any? I have a hard time pointing to a particularly defined arc for anyone. Aside from the usual ‘we became a found family’ cast bonding. Not really. It's something that really stuck out to me reading the sample chapters of the final book.
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Nov 17, 2021 23:11
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Started on the final book. I feel like the story is taking ages to actually begin. Anyway, here are my predictions: the gates get destroyed, Jim sacrifices himself, the Roci crew survives, Duarte is treacherous and turns out to have a new Big Stupid Plan That Can't Work, the Expanse is then the term for the disparate colonies scattered about who need to learn a new way of FTL, some kind of protomolecule business brings Miller back for a bit (maybe some final philosophical chat with Jim?), we learn very little about the Goths and all that side of things, and the epilogue is something like the Epstein Drive moment but for protomolecule-free FTL, maybe featuring Amos because haha he's the last man standing haha. Big talk about how this allows humanity to choose its own path forward. Way too much of the book will be recounting the events of books previous. Not because I particularly want this ending, but I think that's very much in-line with how the eight previous books have gone and the general Corey style.
Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Nov 30, 2021 |
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Nov 30, 2021 05:57
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That was quite possibly the most boring epic conclusion to a series I've ever read and far too reminiscent of the final moments of Mass Effect 3. It's not terrible but, I mean, I got seven out of eight predictions right. I feel like this needed to be two books. One book dedicated to Tanaka hunting down Holden to get Teresa back and another dedicated to the return of Duarte and the final showdown - can the Laconians and our heroes trust each other long enough to stop him? As it is, I spent a lot of the first half in the book in a fugue state because it felt like one long weird detour from the opening premise and while it faded once the plot got moving about halfway through, it wasn't really enough to energize me at all. Even at the end of the series with the fate of all humanity on the line, the Corey team doesn't really take any risks and while that prevents the ending from being a disaster it also prevents it from being memorable.General Battuta posted:"Some people think they can change the human species," the guy who was old and had seen too much poo poo said. "But whatever you do to change what's human, you're still a human doing changes. Isn't that funny?" He put the red kibble in the recycler. "Anyway, I don't think about this stuff. I just drink and shoot stuff. That's why I'm still alive." He was the real wise man. It felt like Amos was doing so much of this in the novel. The character's fun and all but he needed to stay dead in Tiamat's Wrath. Him showing up as the guardian of humanity at the end of Leviathan Falls was... a thing.
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Nov 30, 2021 23:42
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Nail Rat posted:20% in and I feel like nothing has happened since the Battle of Laconia. 20% was the exact point where that hit me too, funnily enough.
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Dec 1, 2021 02:03
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"Well, at least they're not Kit..."
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Dec 1, 2021 02:14
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General Battuta posted:The genius of these books, by which I mean the primary artistic achievement, is rendering the most extreme human emotions and experiences conceivable down into ho-hum. When Jim Holden says “Just processing some old trauma, the usual” he’s basically stating the thesis of The Expanse. No matter where we go or what we do it’s going to look like a bunch of people having the same conversations in the same scenes over and over and over again. Yeah, the book trying to tell me that Holden was a traumatised wreck after his time in Laconia prison was... not very effective.
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Dec 2, 2021 21:56
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Steven Strait Holden is the guy who Book Holden thinks he is. Book Holden is just an average-looking probably-white farmboy type.
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Dec 6, 2021 06:18
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I feel like there was an idea that this last novel would've been, like, Holden and co. grappling with the inevitability of the goth 'victory' and finding some meaning before the end. But then it swerves away from that and it leaves the whole first half of the novel feeling weird and irrelevant. AlternateAccount posted:Speaking of, is it ever explained why his antimatter bomb plan affects him the way it does? It actually ends up making him more powerful, but the odd catatonia and such were odd and interesting, but left dangling a bit. Wasn't that just the aliens reaching out and basically telling him to shut the gently caress up? Otherwise, yeah, Tanaka sucks. "Boy, I wish we'd kept Bobbie around." She was just a mess from top to bottom -- incompetent and angry. And, really, when you begin your novel on a hardcore military officer is tasked to go track down her god-emperor spending one chapter on that and then swerving into chasing his daughter to get to him felt like a significant issue in the core backbone of the novel.
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Dec 9, 2021 02:53
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I remain unclear as to why the human hive mind would stalemate the gate entities. I mean, they annihilated the Builders and their hive mind and they have no problem with annihilating humanity (as mentioned, they're capable of it) so it seems like they're fine to win no matter what happens.
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Jan 31, 2022 03:03
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On the other hand, it's a little odd that Holden dosing himself up with the protomeme gives him immediate anti-Dragonball Z powers when I always thought that Duarte's ability to do that stemmed somewhat from Cortezar's experiments.
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Mar 4, 2022 12:25
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From memory, the siege of Laconia stuff is basically recounted in flashback in italics, like a Wikipedia article, yeah. When I was reading it I had the distinct impression that it was very much a 'We may not have the SFX budget for a big fleet engagement, so, let's try and get around it.' Otherwise, yeah, the Naomi chapters in Tiamat's Wrath are certainly up there in my 'worst sections of The Expanse' thoughts. Naomi herself is a character who spends far too much time being defined as "Jim Holden's girlfriend" despite being arguably better educated, generally more intelligent, and more principled than the leading man. In the first novel, she doesn't really do anything. In the second, she does argue against Holden's worsening tendencies -- but then just kind of overlooks them. In the third, she does give Clarissa hell as she tries to destroy the Rocinante which is a fun few chapters, but then I'm pretty sure she then spends the rest of the book confined to a hospital gurney. External Organs posted:I remember liking those chapters, in kind of a "no matter what you do in life, it's all going to be routine and depending on logistics / organization" kind of way. There's something to be said for it, but Battuta's point that if a story is too grounded it loses its charge is a good one. The novels never really reach for anything beyond that idea that humanity will never really change, but that is also presented without much consideration, it's just kind of accepted a priori. Despite all the internal monologuing the characters do about history or technology or human nature or politics, they never really come to any interesting conclusions. I don't really know how much of this comes down from the Corey team deliberately trying to keep the novels 'apolitical' or writing in a rush or whatever. There's a bit I just hit in the reread which I think is really indicative of how the pair don't really say anything and this really harms their characters and worldbuilding. It's in the third novel. Clarissa has just taken part in the mutiny (in the sense she was led up to the command deck as a prized show pony.) She thinks the mutiny is stupid because Earthers, Belters, Martians, whatever, are all the same and bleed the same blood. She also notices how the ships she's been working on as a maintenance tech often use the same parts, regardless of them being Earther or Belter, which she likens to the 'same blood' thought. One of these ships is the Nauvoo/Behemoth. We know from the second novel that Mao-Kwik, the company of Clarissa's father, was actually really heavily involved with the Protogen conspiracy. Mention is made that Mao-Kwik runs freighters on both Earth and Mars and that a lot of the material Protogen used to build its space infrastructure came from Mao-Kwik. So, the obvious connection here is that Mao-Kwik is not only profiting off the evil conspiracy but just the normal state of affairs around the Solar system. I think the TV series took this a step further and had Mao-Kwik construct the Protogen stealth ships or their fusion reactors were Mao-Kwik or something like that. So, why not connect the two dots? Clarissa is already turning against her father and nearly crippled by guilt. Have her pop open a panel and see a Mao-Kwik component on the Nauvoo, one of humanity's greatest achievements. Have her maybe grapple with the thought that even humanity's greatest ship is marked in its own way by the atrocities her father and his corporation committed. You could even have Clarissa be like, wow, the Nauvoo has evil in its very construction just like I do. Maybe it isn't just Clarissa's evil dad but a systemic issue. Maybe the 'nothing will ever change' cynicism isn't so much human nature but a result of the system we're trapped in? Instead, I think there's a lot of moments like this where either the Corey team simply doesn't want to be political or melodramatic and so it feels like there's all these points of interest floating around in the ether. The other thing is that they also seem to come up with a narrative spine and stick to it religiously, which is probably why they could put the books out so quickly, but this leads to a lot of moments where it feels like the characters can't work things out or have dramatic moments or take certain actions because the plot needs them to be in a certain place in a dozen chapters from now. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 23:02
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Gophermaster posted:I feel like that should have been mentioned at some point if the authors intended it. It's not mentioned in Nemesis Games or Babylon's Ashes, but Persepolis Rising establishes that Singh was taken there as an adolescent. The problem is, even "almost a third" of the Martian navy retreating to Laconia isn't nearly enough to build a society of that size in thirty years, especially when only one of the ships was a capital ship. Persepolis Rising mentions that there were Earther colonists on the planet at the time of Duarte's arrival, but this only complicates things. External Organs posted:I dunno, maybe the belter juice high g combat drugs they have are super effective but nasty and have side effects. Pretty sure Babylon's Ashes has the crew on second-rate combat drugs when Marco ambushes them and they're just all-round worse. General Battuta posted:The idea that belters are biologically different from inners seems to have quietly vanished at some point. Naomi needs to take drugs to go to a planet and then later she doesn't. They just quietly edge it out of the worldbuilding, or forget. The first three books are pretty consistent, but Cibola Burn has the refugee ship possess enough drugs to let basically the whole complement of Belters live on Ilus, Babylon's Ashes introduces the idea of "severe" Belters (eg. Naomi, but not Marco and Filip), and by the time of the last three novels, it's like they've just forgotten all the biology stuff and Belter is just a cultural thing. It's also possible that it was a subtle retcon to fit the book Belters in with the show. Gophermaster posted:I'm re-reading the series and just finished Babylon's ashes again. One thing that bugged me the entire story arc about the belt war was that belters really shouldn't have been a military threat on ships unless they ambushed others. They make a big deal about how belters can't handle heavy G, and their lack of training makes them ineffective in myriad ways, but apparently they are fine to fight under the same G as trained earth or mars soldiers with the same battle effectiveness? The Free Navy is also really quite powerful for a raiding force made up of the small ships Duarte didn't want and, presumably, a bunch of converted gunships and pirate vessels. The biggest engagements in Sol's history go down between the Free Navy, Earth, and Mars -- and the two inner powers get pretty badly mauled.
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Dec 27, 2023 00:54
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CommanderApaul posted:Ty has mentioned in some of the commentary stuff with Wes and others that there isn't a huge acting pool for those roles. The production team also thought it would have been a distraction from the story itself, which is ultimately about humanity as a whole. Belters aren't part of the whole human race? Gee, Marco Inaros was right.
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Jan 3, 2024 08:12
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Orvin posted:It’s been a little while since I read the books, but aren’t some of the early engagements handwaved away due to the bulk of Earth and Martian Navies needing to stay close to home to intercept thrown rocks? So what little forces Earth and Mars have outside Mars orbit are much more easily overwhelmed and/or surprised. Eiba posted:That's my vague memory of the tactics too. The Free Navy was no match for the inner planets in an open battle, but they set things up in such a way that the full force couldn't be brought to bear. The space warfare aspects of the series are the weakest part of The Expanse, which means it is a bit of an issue when the novels began to put more and more emphasis on it. They don't really detail those parts in line with their importance to the plot, and the details they do add just muddy the waters. It's a big reason why Babylon's Ashes is the weakest in the series. But, yes, the Free Navy is roughly as strong as the combined fleet of Earth and Mars. We know this because, by the conclusion of the Free Navy conflict, which featured multiple engagements between both sides and the largest fleet action in history, the Earth navy has lost all but three of its battleships. It then takes Earth and Mars thirty years to rebuild their fleets to pre-war readiness, even if we can assume that a significant percentage of infrastructure was devoted to ensuring the survival of Earth and its population. Notably, the threat of a third of the pre-war Martian fleet hanging out on Laconia -- and having conquered the Earther colonists there -- would have likely made military readiness something of a priority. I think you can argue that the storyline of the series requires that the navies of Earth and Mars be taken off the board. But what is the Free Navy? I think it changes somewhat between the two books. In Nemesis Games, it appears to be a small force that Commander Winston Duarte gifted Marco Inaros in exchange for the Protomolecule sample, a smokescreen for his flight to Laconia. According to Alex and Bobbie, Duarte arranged for small ships (specifically, the Corvette-class frigates carried by Donnager-class battleships) to be 'lost' and end up in Inaros' hands. The bigger ships, such as the Donnagers themselves, can't really be used as part of this strategy. Meanwhile, Duarte takes "almost a third" of the Martian navy out past the Laconia gate. Duarte takes two battleships, one of them the MCRN Barkeith which is lost during transit. By the time of Persepolis Rising, Sol knows he only has the one. Alternatively, he only took the Barkeith, but wasn't travelling on it, and they lost their one and only battleship. (Duarte did take other ships, as an aside, but I think there was a whole element of the missing ships being smuggled to Laconia/as cover to the Free Navy and not eaten by the rings which might've been a bit of a rewrite.) So, the Free Navy appears to be a raiding group designed to upset the Sol system while it is reeling from the strike on Earth and the strike on the Martian Prime Minister. These appear to be the only initial strikes the Free Navy makes, with the bulk of its forces focused on destroying the Prime Minister's convoy before it reaches Luna. We don't know whether other elements of the Free Navy strike other targets. Nemesis Games doesn't appear to say so. The only battle we here about is the one against the ministerial convoy. So, we don't know the losses sustained by Earth and Mars in the opening stages of the conflict. It's likely that the ministerial convoy was destroyed, which included a battleship (presumably a Donnager-class.) It appears the Earth fleets withdrew to Luna and Earth as soon as the second rock hit, and while the fleet is referred to as "ragged" the Earth navy is said to be composed to aging, obsolete ships at the best of times which makes it an unclear descriptor. This is key, because a refrain of the series is that while Mars has better ships, Earth has more. The books never say specifically, but the TV series says it was about 3:1 at the time of the Free Navy conflict (with it being 5:1 prior to the wars in the TV series timeline.) Mars has approximately nine battleships, which aligns with Duarte taking two with his "almost a third" of the fleet. Let's lowball these figures. Mars starts with 9, but loses the Donnager itself and does not replace it (8), then the battleship carrying the Prime Minister (7), and two who defect to Duarte (5.) If we assume that Earth has a 3:1 advantage across all sizes, this means that the combined fleet possesses approximately thirty battleships. Given that the United States can field eleven carrier groups, I'd say it's a fine number. This is about all we know about ship numbers, but Avasarala mentions that Mars has "sixteen battlecruisers" to Bobbie. Now, battlecruisers aren't battleships, but Martian cruisers did appear in Caliban's War but mid-weight warships vanish after that point. So, we can put the Martian fleet at 5 + 16 = 21 with Earth having 21*3 = 63 for a total of 84 capital ships. Even with that conservative and frankly absurd estimate (Babylon's Ashes says the operation involves "hundreds"; we're not including any small ships which we know Earth and Mars have), the Free Navy has a pretty big uphill battle because I'm not sure they have anywhere near that number of frigates. In Nemesis Games, I would've said that more than twenty was unlikely. Duarte and Sauveterre appear to think Inaros is unreliable and treacherous, so, you'd assume they'd want to not risk him turning his guns on them. The Free Navy does keep the bulk of both fleets near Earth on rock-blasting duty, which is a double-edged sword. Sure, it keeps the fleets pinned and allows Inaros' forces to control the outer system and prey on civilian traffic without complications, it also prevents the Free Navy from eroding the inners' capability. Babylon's Ashes doesn't appear to demonstrate that any engagements were happening prior to the combined offensive campaign being launched. When the Azure Dragon is knocked down and the combined fleet moves out, Inaros promptly abandons everything, yes, but doesn't appear to take advantage of this by striking the inners' supply lines. Enter Michio Pa. Michio Pa has a raiding fleet of about fifteen Corvette-class frigates. This is one part of the Free Navy, but we're not sure how big a part it is. When Pa defects to the combined fleet, the loss of her ships doesn't seem to sway the balance of power that much -- Earth isn't jubilant and Inaros' compatriots aren't concerned. So, just how many ships does the Free Navy have? Well, we don't know. But Michio Pa mentions that they also possess "capital ships" and that she was given the "smaller, lighter ships" with Inaros and some others taking the heavier ships to be "the sledgehammer." Except Marco doesn't have any capital ships. Even he only has a Corvette-class as his personal flagship, the Pella. We don't know what the Free Navy is made up of, except that it's possibly entirely made up of Martian Corvette-class frigates as these are the only Free Navy ships we see. It's reasonable to assume that a lot of it is converted pirate vessels or civilian gunboats, but this isn't stated (although the TV series goes in that direction.) We never see these capital ships and it's unlikely Pa was mistaken as she's a member of Marco's inner circle and even knows about the Laconian railguns. In either case, when the fleets clash, the Free Navy doesn't break immediately. It engages in running battles, sure, but it also stands and fights -- and commits to those fights. The Battle of Titan begins with nine allied ships facing fifteen Free Navy ships, and ends up going for two days with "a hundred or more" ships involved and becoming one of the largest in history. It wasn't a decisive allied victory, either. Pa's element is shattered and casualties are heavy on both sides, enough that in the second day it wasn't clear who was winning. So, the Free Navy was putting up a hell of a fight. It is also only one of the engagements taking place at around that time and Naomi assesses the fleet action involving "hundreds" across the whole system. By the end of it, Marco Inaros' fifteen ships burning for Medina, seemingly all that is left of the Free Navy's viable combat forces, are basically an insurmountable threat. The allied fleet is spent, if not broken, and unable to pursue. Avasarala herself has to Hail Mary Pa's forces that got destroyed at Titan. So, all in all, it appears the Free Navy was either roughly comparable to the combined fleet as a whole, or the Belters punched well above their weight class and practically broke the backs of Earth and Mars while scattered and on the defense with a fleet of frigates. Now, the Free Navy's attack on the ring blockade with the stealth rocks is a TV series invention and nothing like that appears to happen in the books. The TV series seems to stick with the idea that the Free Navy is a small core of Martian combat vessels, with the Pella getting an upgrade to a light cruiser, and converted/armed civilian ships making up the bulk of the force. In the TV series, the Free Navy gets caught in three battles and basically broken immediately, with the exception of the Pella itself which cuts a swath through Drummer's own fleet. This isn't even getting into whole Belter crews should be worse at high-gee manoeuvring and endurance than Earthers and Martians, meaning that the inner fleets should've been better on a physiological level. They can burn harder for longer, but this doesn't come up (and Marco himself has no issue with prolonged sustained burns.) The Free Navy lost, but it virtually annihilated the inner navies in the process, and the only open slugfest we know of at Titan wasn't an overwhelming victory for the combined fleet. tl;dr -- Marco Inaros seemingly took a force that was inferior in numbers and armament (and physiology!) and practically broke the navies of Earth and Mars. This is while he was indulging in personal vendettas and strategic decisions of questionable utility. Had Duarte been paying attention, he probably could've turned his fleet around and taken Sol then and there. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Jan 3, 2024 |
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Jan 3, 2024 13:11
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Despite that I've written too many words about the series' approach to space combat, it's the odd ambush between Inaros' three ships and the Rocinante that really takes the cake as, I think, the worst part of Babylon's Ashes. Three next-gen Corvette-classes against the Rocinante, and they just lose. You could fix it by saying Inaros wanted to capture Holden or Johnson, but he doesn't, he just wants them dead, so it should be a pretty simple matter of overwhelming the point defense. It's not like it took much to fix it, the TV series made it really exciting.
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Jan 7, 2024 03:46
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banned from Starbucks posted:Laconia already had colonists when the rogue Martians landed, right? Or is that just a TV show thing? Seems odd they didn't report the existence of the orbital construction platform back to Earth. They did, and they're specifically noted as Earther colonists which is odd, them being Martian colonists could've been just Duarte playing the long game. Which means Laconia didn't just take a planet that everyone thought was unimportant, but a bunch of people who everyone just threw to the wolves. It's not a TV show thing, but I believe it originates from the Strange Dogs novella, and I think is first mentioned in the main novels within Tiamat's Wrath. Given the production realities of the authors never knowing how many books they had (three, then four, then six, then nine (I think)), it appears that a lot of the Laconia subplot (and possibly even the Romans and Goths) was being changed to keep up. Babylon's Ashes, for example, introduces colonies being lost due to alien presences, the alien-derived Proteus coming off the Laconian production line, and an attack on Medina en masse by a horde of silent ships that echoes the climax of Leviathan Falls. The vanishing colonies are never mentioned again, the Proteus is written out and replaced with the Magnetars, and the strange attack is never brought up. It's probably why Babylon's Ashes is such a mess, really. It was going to be a final book that got rewritten into this weird transitory novel.
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Jan 7, 2024 08:31
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Colonists were landing on hundreds of worlds and sending back fragmented and crazy accounts for some time. The colonists on Laconia did notice the construction platform, but it was part of a literal pile of insane reports experts were trying to sift through at the time. The whole thing behind Duarte was that he wasn't the absolute smartest person in the room, but he was the fastest at reaching the finish line when it came to noticing things and extrapolating it out the final conclusion. At the end of Book 4 Chrisjen is talking to Bobbie in the epilogue about the chain of events the success on Illith will cause in the solar system and on Mars. She's a very smart person, and is ahead of everyone else we know about at realizing this, but the irony is that Duarte already got there first. He knew Mars was doomed and looked for a new future in those colony reports, and was the first person to make the leap between "half-finished ship in orbit" to "I can build an empire with that". Except that Persepolis Rising says it was data from the first wave of probes that Duarte saw, not reports from any colonists. He knew about the potential of Laconia, or just had a very good guesstimate, from the moment the gates opened, practically speaking, and not from whenever anyone thought to land there. It's something the series can't quite tie together. The interquel comics apparently have Laconia sending people captive to the planet to boost their population numbers. Has anyone in this thread gotten around to those comics? Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 10:37
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jeeves posted:It’s still insane that season 6 of the tv series spent so much time on the Laconia colonist plot lines and then did nothing with them since the series was done. The series did so well with integrating even Marco Inaros into the story before his first appearance, and generally telling the overall story better than the novels, that it's a real surprise they dropped the ball on Duarte. He's first introduced in those shorts, where you have no idea who he is, and if you missed that for whatever reason, his first and only appearance is when he denies Marco's request for assistance. This is after drawing so much more attention to the Martian coup plotline and doing it earlier and more consistently than the novels. My guess is they cut it down severely when Anvar was removed from the series, which is why you get this whole season of Bobbie and Alex on the Razorback set. My understanding is that the Strange Dogs stuff introduces some of the ideas toward the end of the series, which is why they had to include it. I think the showrunner also said it was a bit of a Hail Mary to renew the series: check out this alien stuff going on! I remember when people thought that Babbage was going to inherit Duarte's role because the guy was just completely absent.
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Jan 8, 2024 01:17
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