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went to my first Latin Mass on sunday and it was like i'd never been to church before
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Sep 14, 2017 01:37
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Worthleast posted:Welcome to the thread Trad-curious buddy. thanks bud. i went from 'i should start going back to mass' to following a bunch of trad twitter accounts and developing strong opinions about vatican II in like ~6 months. none so righteous i guess
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Sep 14, 2017 04:03
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Keromaru5 posted:Y'know, I tell myself sometimes that I should read the documents of Vatican II, but I've already got so much on my plate. Right now I'm something like 1/8th of the way through Don Quixote. when you're done with that - i'm also a medievalist grad student so if anyone wants weird medieval christian texts i've got a bunch of fun recommendations
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Sep 14, 2017 04:38
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Senju Kannon posted:the eucharist can be a feast for your eyes AND your insides you can only see the host when he holds it up anyway and id rather he be facing the cross than me at that point
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Sep 15, 2017 00:55
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Senju Kannon posted:but that part is good. no
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Sep 15, 2017 18:36
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man if you just want a perfectly-accessible completely demythologized totally inclusive in-no-way-exalted rite why not just become a unitarian idgi
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Sep 15, 2017 18:37
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Senju Kannon posted:i'm buddhist these days actually uh sure but for the vast majority of congregants over the millennia of the latin mass' use would still not have been able to understand it, and that was sort of the point
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Sep 15, 2017 19:15
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Senju Kannon posted:you can think that if you want but that's not historically why it happened that way It's of course not how it started but it fairly quickly (and certainly by the Middle Ages) became one of the main reasons it was not altered
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Sep 15, 2017 19:39
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Senju Kannon posted:is a post facto justification really that much more important than inculturation? that plus a couple millennia of tradition, yeah
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Sep 15, 2017 20:01
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i have yeah and if they'd continued doing those things for the next 1900 years i would defend them as tradition too. they didn't, though, so it's not a very good comparison
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Sep 15, 2017 20:12
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Senju Kannon posted:yeah but now we're doing the vulgar thing so that's part of tradition too lol come on man that's not even worth responding to and you know it quote:like i get it catholicism is like Tradition and Scripture but i guess i disagree that latin mass is Tradition it just seems like tradition to me i honestly dont understand that at all. i know i'm a broken record but it's the language in which the mass was done from 190 until the 60s
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Sep 15, 2017 20:25
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Josef bugman posted:So your defence is literally "well we have always done it this way!" yeah i think tradition is an important part of catholicism, crazy. well i mean that plus its universality plus it's a strong point of spiritual contact for two thousand years' worth of ordinary christians and saints plus i think it inspires vastly more reverence plus i think it's much more beautiful plus it more effectively marks out the mass as being a sacred event isolated from the normal flow of time but we can be reductive about it too Senju Kannon posted:i value indigenous religious experience and culture more than i value historical accident ok
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Sep 15, 2017 20:30
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nah Latin rules man, it's fun to learn and beautiful to read. if you think it's bad you should try welsh
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Sep 15, 2017 20:42
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Josef bugman posted:From what I have read Latin wasn't even spoken by "ordinary Christians" for that long. Hell I don't think it was spoken by educated Christians for that long. Of course not, I even said that. But define spoken, because educated men very definitely knew and used Latin until like the 17th century, when it was replaced by French as the lingua franca (& of course it was only recently that the classical education died) quote:The delenation between the sacred and the secular would also not have been nearly as accute during large stretches of the time period you are talking about. I know, I'm a medievalist quote:I mean I have a source from one of the books "A handbook for Parish priests" written in 1385 describing what you should tell your congregation not to do "He should admonish them that no one should cause a disturbance or a disagreeement or hold discussions or idle and progance conversations in a church or in a graveyard". If you have to forbid something, its kind of a thing that people are doing I'm not really seeing your point, here? chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 20:51
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Josef bugman posted:Educated men used a version of Latin if I remember that is rather different from, y'know, the one the early Christians used. And I define, spoken, to mean "could speak and understand" and even most priests couldn't do that in whacking great portions of the medieval period in Europe. medieval latin is not that different from classical latin and i do not agree that 'most' priests couldn't understand latin in at least the high and late middle ages quote:What you said was "well i mean that plus its universality plus it's a strong point of spiritual contact for two thousand years' worth of ordinary christians" to which I believe I am allowed to go "Not really". Because of the points I pointed out. you're allowed to do whatever you want but i don't really see how what you're saying in any way contradicts that statement. yes, there were pigs in church sometimes. but two thousand years' worth of christians, including just about every saint you've ever heard of, heard the mass sung in latin, and pigs don't change that. that's what i meant about a point of contact quote:Its not an unbroken chain back to the start of Christianity not a perfect one no but it's a drat sight better than english, lol
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Sep 15, 2017 21:04
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Josef bugman posted:So it's not even a straight Millenia now? Its become "maybe, about five hundred years". You don't get to claim it goes on for Millenia when it clearly hasn't. I can accept hyperbole (hells I really indulge in it) but it's not a Millenia long connection, its a disjointed joining of lots of different pieces that can, if you squint, make a whole. Thats fine that you don't agree about 'most', I will try and find a source for my claims but it seems as if a good percentage just don't really care to learn Latin during any age. what are you talking about dude. are you arguing that the mass wasn't performed for millennia in latin? or are you arguing that most priests couldn't speak latin, which i don't believe to be true and furthermore don't really consider relevant to my argument? also it's spelled millennia, millennium in the singular, and it's not capitalised. i wouldn't be a dick about this except that we've been using this word a lot and it's starting to grate on me quote:So your saying that it matters not if the person understood what was being said, merely the sound matters? Perhaps if I changed the words and said it to a smiliar tone it would have the same meaning and connection? i find it really hard to believe that you're not either being willfully dense or just disingenuous, here chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 21:31
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Josef bugman posted:I'm arguing that it wasn't performed in the same latin, across two thousand years, that it was often not transmitted to ordinary people with any understanding of the words being said and that it should not be held up as a permanent link to the past because of that. can you read classical and medieval latin? it's... a little bit like saying new yorkers and londoners don't speak the same english. i'm exaggerating a little, but not a lot - medieval latin is very close to classical latin, and many of the quirks that set it apart are derived from the way Jerome translated the Vulgate quote:that it was often not transmitted to ordinary people with any understanding of the words being said i am not disputing that. i have repeatedly said exactly that. i am saying that that is, in fact, not a bad thing. quote:I was trying to demonstrate that this claim quoted above is incorrect due to the fact that the classical and medieval latin possess differences. If I am being too focussed on details I do apologise. i think you're mistaken about the extent of those differences. and even if you were right - even if the mass only provided some kind of linguistic continuity with, say, the last thousand years, or the last five hundred years, i think that's much, much better than uh the last fifty quote:I will ask it as a question "What is more important, the sound Latin makes during mass or the meaning of the words said". Because if its the later shouldn't it be in the local language? the meaning isn't some hidden mystery; don't all latin masses hand out facing-page translations at the door? holding the mass - a ritual - in an unfamiliar, even alien tongue helps to elevate it and underline its status as a ritual; do you dispute that? it sets it apart more thoroughly from the flow of time, it helps to engender reverence (particularly of the host) and foster an atmosphere of the sacred. much of these thing is lost in the vernacular. of course i can only provide anecdotes, but i've never felt the kind of reverence at an english mass that i felt at the latin mass, and everyone i know who's done both has felt the same way.
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Sep 15, 2017 21:55
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Josef bugman posted:So its still not the same though. It might well be close, but it ain't the same is it? No, if we're really going to get into it, it's not exactly the same, but I can't imagine that you're good faith arguing that it doesn't provide more continuity with those that have gone before than does the vernacular. St. Francis heard the mass in Latin. I'll settle for that, as I said. quote:Is age the only criteria you accept for legitimacy of a tradition? Because that seems a tad weird, just becomes something seems newer than another thing doesn't mean its not traditional. If we are going on that rule, why not try and find the oldest religion and worship that. Yeah I... think age is the most important part of a tradition. Do you...not? Do you think just declaring a new tradition makes it so, somehow outweighing the millennia that have gone before? Does that just disappear? This year we just declare that we're going to decorate a hole in the ground instead of a Christmas tree, and nothing's lost, and we all assign to the Christmas hole the same kind of emotional importance that we did the tree? quote:I imagine that most of the people who worshipped down through history probably weren't given translations. I can't argue your own feeling about an event, I can merely point out that your own aesthetic preferences shouldn't inform how people choose to worship in your Church. It's much more than aesthetic, as I'm trying to make clear, and I apologize if I'm failing to do so quote:And can you answer the question? If this is putting you on the spot I am sorry, but which is more important the sound or the words? I think I have been answering the question, and I think you're creating a false dichotomy, here. Obviously not just the sounds of the words matter; I'm talking about the weight of historical tradition, not just how it sounds. But clearly the language, and the history of that language, play an incredibly crucial role in elevating or lowering the sacredness of a given ritual. Rituals are marked out by space, by words, by time, and by actions. If you profanate any of those you profanate the whole ritual. Conducting the mass with Wonderbread would lower its status and reduce the sense of reverence and awe it engenders,* as would shortening the mass to fifteen minutes long, as would conducting it in a McDonalds - as, too, does conducting it in the common tongue. The sacred needs to be set apart from the ordinary in order to be the sacred; I'm arguing that any intrusion of the ordinary cheapens the entire ritual. *which is exactly why the Vatican won't allow gluten free hosts to be used, lol Thirteen Orphans posted:I really don't have a horse in this race, but last Sunday I was at a parish I'd never been to before and they had kneelers set up like altar rails and I loved receiving communion that way. Yeah it rules chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 05:04
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genola posted:I'm Presbyterian, i'm sorry to hear that
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Sep 19, 2017 03:36
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Smoking Crow posted:Wouldn't crossing the bosphorus be becoming Muslim now only until we sell the pope on declaring another crusade
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Sep 19, 2017 22:43
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I actually just had a discussion with a priest on Twitter about that the other day:  e: i have already plugged in my phone please do not tell me to plug in my phone chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 04:06
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Tbf he had been tweeting about sex robots previously, it wasn't completely out of the blue
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Sep 20, 2017 04:27
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Tias posted:We talked with noted conservative priest Stine Munch, who was pretty cool. She opposed changing any protestant beliefs in order to make modern people join the church, which I can get behind - but then she said that proper answer to bringing people into the fold, which she had written a book about, was to "fire up the liturgy six ways from sunday with incense and ritual" she is correct on all counts
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Sep 22, 2017 05:17
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Cythereal posted:I figure if anyone can explain this, it's y'all. the Blessed Ranieri frees the poors from a jail in Florence, from the san sepolcro altarpiece
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Sep 24, 2017 07:19
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I think a new Antipope could be just the kind of revitalizing shakeup we need
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Sep 27, 2017 05:01
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i didnt go to mass today and i feel bad about it edit: nevermind, went to mass chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Oct 8, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 19:57
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i live in a mid-tier northeastern city and literally the only night mass in the area is a 5 PM Korean service up the road
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Oct 1, 2017 20:42
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it only counts if its in latin, the language spoken by jesus himself
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Oct 1, 2017 22:01
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where can I get an Agnus Dei sacramental? i'm going to hit up my local discalced carmelites this weekPaladinus posted:He went to England as a child. during which time he founded the monastery at Glastonbury, yes. common knowledge here, guys chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 04:52
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the franciscans were drunk for the entire middle ages so in some respects he'll be bringing the order back to its roots
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Oct 4, 2017 02:18
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also it is sincerely okay if not every religious institution adheres to progressive ideas about sexuality
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Oct 7, 2017 23:19
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i also think that every religion should teach only my personal beliefs
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Oct 8, 2017 04:46
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the Church doesn't support murdering anyone, that's why it opposes abortion 
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Oct 8, 2017 04:53
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Thirteen Orphans posted:WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT ABORTION PLEASE DON'T GET OUR THREAD GASSED. you guys don't let me have any fun real answer then: if people die because the church says what the church believes is true, the church should seek to put an end to that. the church should not stop saying what the church believes to be true, nor is it any way morally obligated to do so.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:04
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Senju Kannon posted:but opposes ENDA, which would allow lgbt people to have workplace anti discrimination laws put in place. considering the fact that the majority of lgbt people are impoverished (also people of color) and considering trans women in particular have difficulty accessing documentation that could help prevent them from being outed during the job search process, it's almost like the church is implicitly condoning the economic subjugation of american lgbt people. crazy, almost like the church doesn't see the liberation and normalization of lgbt people as a desirable goal in the way that you do
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Oct 8, 2017 05:12
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i'm sorry i just don't find "the church should stop teaching that x is a sin because it causes emotional distress to people who believe themselves guilty of committing x sin" to be a compelling argument. it's not even an argument two people on opposite sides of the issue can really have, because you're presuming that the church's teaching on lgbt issues isn't intrinsically good, and someone defending those teachings would uh not agree with that.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:22
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Senju Kannon posted:something intrinsically good wouldn't cause LITERAL CHILDREN TO BE TORTURED AND CAUSE THEM TO COMMIT SUICIDE 1) we aren't consequentialists. 2) we're also not utilitarians. 3) those things are bad; no one should be tortured or commit suicide. however: chernobyl kinsman posted:if people die because the church says what the church believes is true, the church should seek to put an end to that. the church should not stop saying what the church believes to be true, nor is it any way morally obligated to do so. 4) again, you're begging the question by presuming the validity of your own ethical and meta-ethical framework, which brings us back to: chernobyl kinsman posted:i'm sorry i just don't find "the church should stop teaching that x is a sin because it causes emotional distress to people who believe themselves guilty of committing x sin" to be a compelling argument. it's not even an argument two people on opposite sides of the issue can really have, because you're presuming that the church's teaching on lgbt issues isn't intrinsically good, and someone defending those teachings would uh not agree with that.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:33
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Pellisworth posted:Christian groups (I'm speaking about more than just Roman Catholics here) should preach love compassion and understanding of LGBT people as loudly (our louder, preferably) as they espouse their specific beliefs on LGBT issues. sure, I agree. I'm just pushing the matter a bit hard here because I have no patience for arguments that the church ought to change its stance on x, y or z issue because of [consequentialist argument], and because senju is easy to get worked up.
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Oct 8, 2017 05:48
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i also don't know who that isPellisworth posted:i dunno who that is but it doesn't matter because SOLA SCRIPTURA baby speaking of, it's with a heavy heart that i announce that the prots are at it again 
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Oct 8, 2017 05:52
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The Phlegmatist posted:arguing about Natural Law i haven't been doing that, though. i haven't even referenced the actual doctrinal defenses for the church's position. all i've been saying is that the church isn't morally obligated to adopt progressive sexual politics. hell, i haven't even condemned progressive sexual politics.
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Oct 8, 2017 06:06
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