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Look, as americans, we can't do anything about the abuses of our own government. We're just in no position to do anything about it so why even bother talking about it. However what we *can* do is save brown people from the oppression of their own government by unconditionally supporting our military's invasion of their country.
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Oct 5, 2016 23:51
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I want a dyke for president. I want a person with aids for president and I want a fag for vice president and I want someone with no health insurance and I want someone who grew up in a place where the earth is so saturated with toxic waste that they didn’t have a choice about getting leukemia. I want a president that had an abortion at sixteen and I want a candidate who isn’t the lesser of two evils and I want a president who lost their last lover to aids, who still sees that in their eyes every time they lay down to rest, who held their lover in their arms and knew they were dying. I want a president with no airconditioning, a president who has stood on line at the clinic, at the dmv, at the welfare office and has been unemployed and layed off and sexually harrassed and gay-bashed and deported. I want someone who has spent the night in the tombs and had a cross burned on their lawn and survived rape. I want someone who has been in love and been hurt, who respects sex, who has made mistakes and learned from them. I want a black woman for president. I want someone with bad teeth and an attitude, someone who has eaten that nasty hospital food, someone who crossdresses and has done drugs and been in therapy. I want someone who has committed civil disobedience. And I want to know why this isn’t possible. I want to know why we started learning somewhere down the line that a president is always a clown: always a john and never a hooker. Always a boss and never a worker, always a liar, always a thief and never caught.
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Oct 6, 2016 00:17
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America is great and brings freedom and democracy to the world. Corruption in government and abuses of power and rigged elections can only happen in places that are not America, and it's laughable to imply that they could be true here. America is exceptional because it is the best. We need to have faith and trust in our great leaders who have the same last name as the previous great leaders, because they know what is best for us and they tell us the truth. Support are troops. Iraq had WMDs. The russians are out to get us. I am very progressive liberal person.
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Oct 6, 2016 00:29
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The whole loving point of your vote is that you dangle it in front of the politicians and make them think that they might not get it if they don't try harder to please you. That's how you have any power over them, and that's how you get them to do things that benefit society. You don't owe politicians anything. You people really suck at this democracy thing.
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Oct 6, 2016 01:40
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All the candidates are bad *because* everyone just keeps voting for the lesser evil. They have no incentive to be anything else. How is this not super obvious to everyone???
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Oct 6, 2016 01:42
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Lemming posted:This is you clearly insinuating that Democrats represent the status quo when they don't. The status quo exists because Democrats have been largely fighting for progress and Republicans have been fighting for regress, and they've been roughly equally supported for a long time. The fix to this is to work within the system we have to improve it, where it is possible to improve things, vs whining that nobody is as good as you want them to be and acting like everyone is the same, which is what you're doing. Sorry but the Democratic Party has not been fighting for progress. Social movements have been fighting for progress and pressuring the Democrats into giving away concessions. Again, don't get your democracy backwards.
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Oct 6, 2016 01:52
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Main Paineframe posted:All the candidates are bad because progressives sit at home and whine about how there aren't any good candidates, and also because evil people make up the majority of the voters in this country. Candidates don't spring forth, fully-formed, from a hell-womb in the depths beneath Washington D.C. Actually that's how we got George Bush Jr
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Oct 6, 2016 01:56
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Eifert Posting posted:Tell me about all these wars started by Democratic leadership. The Vietnam war The infinite drone wars in the middle east and africa, including bombing pharmaceutical plants in sudan etc The invasion of Cuba The internal war against civil rights and anticapitalist movements in the 60s The proxy war in Congo, propping up Paul Kagame and leading to millions dead in Rwanda The proxy war in Indonesia, arming the fascists and enabling genocide The colonial massacre of native americans And much more violence under democratic leadership in Honduras, Mexico, Libya, AFRICOM, the Cold War, etc etc The only time nuclear weapons were ever used against civilian populations was under a democratic president... twice
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Oct 6, 2016 02:09
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Eifert Posting posted:So a whole bunch of poo poo before the Southern Strategy flipped the parties and a whole bunch of limited engagements? Those engagements are not "limited" for the people at the receiving end of them
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Oct 6, 2016 02:14
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Lemming posted:Yeah, Democratic representatives like John Lewis have to be dragged kicking and screaming into supporting progressive causes. I don't know what to tell you, it's cool that you have faith in your government dads to do what's best for you but I care about politics too much to just leave it to politicians and limit my involvement to casting one vote every 4 years
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Oct 6, 2016 02:18
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Eifert Posting posted:I've yet to meet an accelerationist who wasn't a member of the educated white male middle class. There hasn't been a Republican presidential candidate in 30 years that was less hawkish than the Democrat and you loving know it. I didn't see anyone in this thread advocating for accelerationism or voting for the republicans. The whole history of the southern strategy switch is an interesting thing to bring up though. Because I think it's important to be informed and realize that political parties exist only to be elected, that they can be made to change, and that unwavering loyalty to one is probably a bad idea
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Oct 6, 2016 02:28
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Mel Mudkiper posted:B. Because history has proven time and time again that large swarths of angry and disenfranchised people are more willing to buy into easy and dangerous answers like Nationalism than they are to buy into progressive ideas. Bernie Sanders actually showed better chances against Trump than Hillary did in the polls. The large swarths of angry disenfranchised people want socialism, not barbarism. Fascism is what happens when you let the "moderate" party of liberal capitalists completely suppress any and all leftist alternatives to it. Hitler was not elected, he was appointed chancellor by a supposedly moderate and pragmatic government.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:47
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Hello, allow me to introduce you to the Tea Party Hillary Clinton is making no effort at all to distance herself from the ideological basis of movements like the tea party. The tea party exists because the American ruling class, democrat and republican, have been feeding a nationalist, bourgeois-worshipping, white supremacist ideology to them since forever and they end up believing it. It's cool that you are basically showing how the ideology of the democratic party is actually a fundamentally anti-democratic one though: "the masses are brutes and they need our enlightened leaders who know what's best to rule over them"
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Oct 6, 2016 03:05
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If Hillary Clinton comes out and makes statements along the following lines: - America is not the best nation on earth - The founding fathers are not heroes - Capitalism is not good for workers - America stands on indigenous territory and was built by slaves Then she will have my vote. Otherwise I consider her a collaborator and part of the reason why the Tea Party and Trump exist 
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Oct 6, 2016 03:19
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sarmhan posted:Wow you really are the living example of someone who is so deeply concerned with ideological purity they will actively work against progressive policies. The perfect is the enemy of the good indeed. Except I am actively working towards progressive policies in my political life, whereas what you seem to be doing is coming up with reasons why people like me should feel ashamed for that and align ourselves with a politician that we consider to be opposed to everything we stand for
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Oct 6, 2016 03:23
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sarmhan posted:No one has said you should stop working FOR progressive policies, or completely align yourself with Hillary. People are saying that fighting against her now is self-destructive and stupid when she is the only hope in this election for progressive policies to actually happen on a broad basis. I'm pretty confident that all my problems with Hillary are very clearly things that Trump is not better at, and that me openly speaking out about them will not cause anyone to vote for Trump
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Oct 6, 2016 03:26
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I couldn't care less about ideals or ethical purity. I don't really believe in any of these things. I try to remain critical of Hillary, the Democratic party, lesser-evilism, dominant ideology, etc because I am convinced that it actually does lead to a better outcome in actually-existing-reality to do so. This is something that I learned through both extensive real-life experience, and educating myself on the history of popular movements, the politics of democracy, social change, etc.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:37
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Main Paineframe posted:I guess it's too bad a progressive can't just, you know, become a politician. Unfortunately it's pretty much impossible for a progressive to become a politician because what you need to do in order to become successful as a politician ties you irrevocably to reactionary interests. It's a systemic problem.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:39
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Lemming posted:You obviously care about those things very much because you refuse to vote for Hillary on that basis even though she's obviously the better of the two options. People who support her, at least the majority of the people here, don't uncritically support her. Those are goalposts you're moving. The point is you can be critical and still understand that, under the current system, the best outcome results from still voting for her. You care more about your personal feelings than doing that, which increases the chances of a Trump presidency. I never actually said I refuse to vote for Hillary. Well maybe I implied it facetiously in that one post with the winking smiley. This thread is called "What's the deal with people who hate Hillary?" I'm here to help provide answers.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:47
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If the thread was called "Why won't people vote for Hillary?" I would probably say similar things, though. I would probably also point out that being a non-voter is highly correlated with poverty, being racialized, being a single mom, a recent immigrant, someone who work unreasonable hours, etc. That a lot of people do not vote because there are actual material obstacles to voting that they do not have the means to overcome. That a lot of people do not feel inspired by Hillary very much, even though they do see her as a better choice than Trump, that they figure she will surely get elected anyway and that they have more pressing, immediate, and urgent concerns in their struggle for survival than overcoming the obstacles that have been put in their way to cast a vote for her. I would make the argument that when likely non-voters say that Hillary represents business as usual they are actually correct, they are not being ignorant or stupid or extremists, and that shaming non-voters for not voting is probably very limited in its effectiveness, and that victim-blaming never solved anything.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:58
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Hillary is the sad proof that, no matter how far you go to sell out to patriarchy as a woman, you will never be treated with respect by your masters
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Oct 6, 2016 05:16
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JFairfax posted:So are we still glossing over the fact that Bill Clinton is responsible for 500,000 Iraqi children dying and that america is currently training Jihadis in Syria? Remember that time when Americans were training jihadis in Afghanistan to fight marxists, and then after that was done these same jihadis blew up the world trade center, and then because of that America invaded Afghanistan and also Iraq while we were at it for no good reason? And now that war is still going on and involves many more middle-eastern territories and will never end? Classic American imperialism!
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Oct 6, 2016 05:34
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Ze Pollack posted:there were those couple of people who said "oh come on it's not like we hosed up Libya THAT much," putting themselves in the ignominious position of setting up a Stalinist to dunk on them. Personally I'm more pro-Hillary when it comes to reproductive rights and LGBT issues, but I'm more pro-Stalin when it comes to the question of ownership of the means of production and foreign policy. Would be curious what the Stalinist in this thread thinks about Stalin's weirdly regressive ideas on family values compared to Lenin, and whether he can convince me that's not good enough reason to vote for Hillary.
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Oct 6, 2016 05:59
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I can't wait until Hillary's term is over, and the choice is between an even more neocon democratic candidate than her, and a literal nazi
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Oct 6, 2016 16:16
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As an actual leftist I am getting really tired of being proven right by history all the time about all my pessimistic predictions and being dismissed by liberals every step of the way, so smug in their own ignorance. They just keep doing the same mistakes over and over again and never learning from them. Denial is a powerful thing. Looking forward to seeing how the liberals in this thread find a way to contort reason to argue that the wars that Hillary will be starting are just and necessary.
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Oct 6, 2016 16:44
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Polygynous posted:what's the solution short of funding a kickstarter to bring over a tankie to tell black people about Hillary's "sudden pandering to black issues"? educate, agitate, organize 1) Educate yourself, and others, about politics, and history. Stop reducing politics to just the electoral process, which is merely the hyper-visible tip of a gigantic iceberg. Politics is not about finding the "correct" ideals to believe in and then convincing yourself that you're better than everyone else for having these ideals, and angrily defending them when they are challenged because your ego is so tied up in that political identity. Politics is about doing what is most effective to seize power. The people in power have learned this, and they only serve you the story about the noble ideals so that you don't challenge their power. Stop buying into the narratives of politicians and develop your critical faculties. Politics is also not about "keeping your hands clean". If you have to vote for a war criminal because it is strategically the best thing to do in the moment, say that you are voting for a war criminal because it is strategically the best thing to do in the moment. Do not invent some story about how that person is actually an amazing progressive hero and that's why you voted for them because you need to protect your image of yourself as a "good person" or whatever. Stop lying to yourself. Things are hosed, and the world is on a dangerous trajectory, and that won't change unless a lot of things change first. Don't be a tool. Mindless optimism only leads to being used. What you want is "pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will". 2) Understand why republicans vote republican. It's not because half of the country is "evil" as one poster posted. This is the kind of manichean and dehumanizing worldview that makes for the terrible political climate we currently see. Being all smug about how much more educated you are than them doesn't help anyone except your own sense of superiority and you feeling good about yourself. Republican voters are being lied to; yes, but also, for many working class people republican policies also represent the best they can hope for in terms of their economic interests because they are effectively taken hostage by the "job creators". We live under capitalism and under capitalism, jobs are actually a requirement for basic survival. People who have the power to create jobs have an enormous amount of power over people who are trying to survive and need these jobs, so when they say "we want to pay less taxes", the people who are terrified of not being employed comply, because their very survival is tied up to the prosperity of capitalists, and they do not see any possible alternative. The democrats' feel-good progressive policies do not, and will never, actually challenge that fundamental power dynamic which is at the core of our entire society, and this is why republicans will continue to vote republican. This is also why republican voters are against immigration: they understand that the more workers are competing for what limited number of jobs are available at any given time, the worse off they are. This makes folks for whom competition in the job market is a directly-lived experience very vulnerable to racist ideology. This is a deplorable state of affairs but it will always be true for as long as the fundamental fact of competition for jobs as a requirement for survival remains, and again, this is not something that the Democratic party will ever challenge. 3) Become involved in political work and political action. Join a local organization, join a union, join a feminist reading group, a soup kitchen, a non-profit, run for mayor, write a blog, join a union, riot in the streets, join a union, anything. Go to meetings, participate in assemblies. Build power for yourself and your community and then exert that power to push for change against existing social structures. Become someone that people trust and feel they can count on for collective action. Who you vote for in presidential elections is literally the least important thing you can do. Casting your vote every 4 years ins an infinitesimal amount of political influence compared to other things you could be doing that would affect you and other people's lives in much more direct and effective ways. Politics is not something that happens only on the TV and at at the ballot box. It happens at the workplace, in the family, at school, etc. Learn from your failures and share that experience. Help create alternate structures for people to be empowered within. Help create new progressive organizations that will become a force that career politicians will not be able to ignore, and will have to account for when they make their decisions. This is what black lives matter is doing, and it's working. This is how pipelines are being stopped. This is how people are getting the minimum wage raised to 15$. As these organizations thrive you will find that you are surrounded with more and more people who are developing a keen understanding of politics, an ability to read media critically, and are able to take matters into their own hands rather than place their faith in career politicians for their salvation. You will find that you are actually getting poo poo done and making a difference in the world, and it will feel good, and you will see the possibilities that lay ahead and understand that there is, in fact, an alternative. 4) Reluctantly vote for Hillary if it actually will make a difference in your state. Continue to hate her. No big deal. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 18:24
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BiohazrD posted:Racism, homophobia, and misogyny People are not born racist, homophobic, and misogynist. People do not acquire these ideas from the ether, or because they are born stupid or bad people. People learn these attitudes because there are actually-existing material structures in the world that teach those ideas to us. Sometimes, the teaching is explicit, but most of the time racism, homophobia, and misogyny, are internalized implicitly and unconsciously. It's great if you know better, but there is a reason why you do, and they don't. The structures that produce these ideologies have a history: they are not eternal or universal. They have a certain way to function and to perpetuate themselves in the world, thus perpetuating the ideas associated with them. The reason it's important to understand that is so we can actually dismantle them. Do you actually care about working to end racism, homophobia, and misogyny? Or do you care about you as an individual not being a racist, not being a homophobe, not being a misogynist, about "keeping your hands clean", and resting assured that you are a "good person" unlike those other people. Those are two very different things. If your ego is tied up in the idea that you are not-racist, then when you do something racist and get called out on it you will probably react in a really lovely and counter-productive way.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:04
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