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goddamnedtwisto posted:As Rumpole is always keen to point out, juries are finders of fact in common law jurisdictions, and are absolutely not allowed to make any findings of law, at least in England and Wales. The age of someone is a finding of fact, not of law. To reuse a post I've literally just made elsewhere on a vaguely-related subject, it sucks but I don't think anybody wants to hear JUSTICEBOT HAS DETERMINED THIS TO BE ILLEGAL. Say what you will about JUSTICEBOT, at least he's predictable and consistent.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:38
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serious gaylord posted:No, but if you want to pretend that 'westminster' isn't used as a dogwhistle for English by a proportion of scottish nationalists then you can go right ahead. By a proportion that is vocal but absolutely insignificant maybe and believe me, it transcends the national question. This is what happens when you get all your opinions on Scottish Nationalists from the internet. The SNP have never demonstrated themselves through their statements or their policies to be a racist party. If they were, perhaps Scotland wouldn't be the only place in the UK where hate crime has not shot up in recent months.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:38
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baronvonsabre posted:No, I can't anymore, you've opened my eyes. I finally see the truth. Thank you my friend, thank you. Truly, you are the one this thread needs, to shine a light on the motives of others and explain the true meaning behind movements the world over. In decades, nay ,centuries to come, people will preach the gospel of serious gaylord, and the central tenant that binds it all together, carved into stone for people to prostate themselves before, basking in the glory of your insight, flagellating themselves in front of your everlasting message to us all: That's not at all what i'm saying but thanks for the meltdown. There was a very specific use of it, particularly during the referendum. Can't say its the fault of the English, but you can throw westminster out. Everyone knows what they really meant. If you are now going to deny that this happened at all because you've had your feelings hurt i just don't know what to say to you. Leggsy posted:By a proportion that is vocal but absolutely insignificant maybe and believe me, it transcends the national question. This is what happens when you get all your opinions on Scottish Nationalists from the internet. It's a good thing i've never said the SNP are a racist party then isn't it. I just said that particular use of 'westminster' is a lovely dogwhistle that plays to a certain type of scottish nationalist. The SNP care not from where the votes flow, just that they flow. serious gaylord fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 20:42
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serious gaylord posted:
legitimate complaints can also be dogwhistles, I'm under no illusions that if I say "bankers" in a conversation that a certain % of the population will hear "jew". It's not a great criticism.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:45
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serious gaylord posted:That's not at all what i'm saying but thanks for the meltdown. Anyway, I'm off. See all you independence supporters at the meeting!
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Nov 30, 2016 20:46
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serious gaylord posted:No, but if you want to pretend that 'westminster' isn't used as a dogwhistle for English by a proportion of scottish nationalists then you can go right ahead. It has never been used that way by any significant number of people but it does seem to be a popular opinion in this thread that many Scottish people are filled with a seething hatred of the English. I have never understood why this is given credence.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:47
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goddamnedtwisto posted:It's not the prosecution's choice as to whether or not a trial goes to jury. Well I suppose technically it is because they could choose to prosecute for a lesser offence that doesn't carry a right to trial by jury, but otherwise it's defendant's choice or mandatory jury trial. If Title 2257 proves someone's age beyond the balance of probabilities, there's no way that the charges should have been progressed as far as they were, the prosecution should have seen the documents, read the standard to which they were held, and dropped charges. If it doesn't, then it's not fit for purpose and should be scrapped.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:48
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Random Integer posted:It has never been used that way by any significant number of people but it does seem to be a popular opinion in this thread that many Scottish people are filled with a seething hatred of the English. I have never understood why this is given credence. The independence thread, mostly.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:50
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Random Integer posted:It has never been used that way by any significant number of people but it does seem to be a popular opinion in this thread that many Scottish people are filled with a seething hatred of the English. I have never understood why this is given credence. Maybe Extreme0 is the only Scottish person they know? SNP chat is boring, everyone knows the only good nationalist party are Plaid Cymru with their plans for an independent socialist Wales.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:54
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serious gaylord posted:That's not at all what i'm saying but thanks for the meltdown. It also wasn't exclusive to Yes voters, one of the favourite dogwhistles of Better Together was saying that Independence would turn English friends and family members into "foreigners", as if that somehow was a negative. Don't forget also that it was the explicit racists who threw themselves behind the no campaign. Is that to say that anything but the tiniest minorities of no voters were racists or hated foreigners? Absolutely not and I would fight anyone who said so. The broader point is that in times of divisiveness such as the referendum, extremists on both sides try to leverage both sides of the campaign to deliver their hateful messages. So you can't just point a finger at one side of the debate and say "they were the real racists", it's simply a minority of tossers on both sides.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:56
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Random Integer posted:It has never been used that way by any significant number of people but it does seem to be a popular opinion in this thread that many Scottish people are filled with a seething hatred of the English. I have never understood why this is given credence. Leading up to the independence referendum I was told several times that I was 'not Scottish enough' to share an opinion on the subject - despite being part Scottish. Nationalism is a disease.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:56
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baronvonsabre posted:No, I can't anymore, you've opened my eyes. I finally see the truth. Thank you my friend, thank you. Truly, you are the one this thread needs, to shine a light on the motives of others and explain the true meaning behind movements the world over. In decades, nay ,centuries to come, people will preach the gospel of serious gaylord, and the central tenant that binds it all together, carved into stone for people to prostate themselves before, basking in the glory of your insight, flagellating themselves in front of your everlasting message to us all: I think that's on the government's banned porn act list.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:56
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serious gaylord posted:How far back does the dataset go? They were still in use in the 60's and 70's I think? That case from 1996 someone posted was for gross indecency between men, so yeahhhh. And imagine when the EU can't override are british laws!!!
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Nov 30, 2016 20:57
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Pissflaps posted:Leading up to the independence referendum I was told several times that I was 'not Scottish enough' to share an opinion on the subject - despite being part Scottish.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:00
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unionism is a disease caused by an infection with the english parasite
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Nov 30, 2016 21:01
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Leggsy posted:I think you're overestimating how many people bought into that rhetoric but I suppose it's one of those things that can't be empirically proven. All I said was I found it distasteful. It was baronvonsabre who put words in my mouth and decided I was actually saying 'Scottish people are the real racists'.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:04
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Leggsy posted:Again, conflating a few idiots on the internet with the wider Scottish Nationalist movement is unrepresentative. Yeah they weren't true Scotsmen
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Nov 30, 2016 21:04
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Yeah they weren't true Scotsmen Oh come on now.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:06
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I think it's time to dissolve regional assemblies and parliaments and give power back to local authorities. It was brave of Labour to attempt to decentralise power in this way back in the 90s but, as can be seen in the stories on this page alone of the bitter division they've caused, they're simply being used to exaggerate the worst excesses of nationalism. No good has come of them except some free drugs for well off Scottish people.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:07
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Pissflaps posted:I think it's time to dissolve regional assemblies and parliaments and give power back to local authorities. I disagree but you're entitled to your opinion.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:14
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Guavanaut posted:Going by the Code for Crown Prosecutors, to for a case to be in the public interest to even prosecute by jury trial, the crime would have to be of considered serious enough (which it would if they were under 18), and the prosecutor needs to believe that the defendant is more likely than not guilty of the crime, which is a near-identical standard to balance of probabilities in a civil case. Okay having gone back and read the thing you were referring to I think I understand where you're coming from a bit better, and I agree with the writer's general point that CPS should have done a bit more digging and the case should never have come to court. However he is (presumably, as he's a lawyer and should know the score) deliberately confusing CPS taking it to trial in the first place and then what happens once it actually goes to trial. The moment the trial starts it's entirely for the jury to determine the age of the participants. So I think we were actually violently agreeing with each other.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:17
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England seems a pretty hosed up place imo
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Nov 30, 2016 21:19
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Leggsy posted:I disagree but you're entitled to your opinion. Similarity, I respect your right to be wrong.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:21
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It protected Scotland from England's ritual self abuse.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:25
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I quite like living somewhere with an assembly that can tell English prescription charges to feck off for starters.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:26
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Pissflaps posted:I think it's time to dissolve regional assemblies and parliaments and give power back to local authorities. No good? For all its faults the NI assembly has been an integral part of the peace process.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:27
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Cerv posted:No good? For all its faults the NI assembly has been an integral part of the peace process. You raise a good point. Maybe keep that one.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:29
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The SNP isn't popular because of devolution. The SNP is popular because Labour didn't take it seriously and put mostly second rate idiots in Holyrood against the SNP's first team. If Gordon Brown entered Holyrood and took over Scottish Labour he'd crush them.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:34
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Pissflaps posted:Similarity, I respect your right to be wrong. My family benefited a lot from free personal care for the elderly, which is a devolved policy (and a Labour one at that, although Lamont wanted rid of it) so maybe I have too much a personal stake in devolution. I also prefer the proportional structure of the Scottish Parliament and going back to FPTP local authorities seems like a step back. In fact, it might just exacerbate the SNP's power since they would have an iron-grip on pretty much every local authority in Scotland. I also think trying to put the genie back in the bottle when it comes to devolution, especially if a Tory government is the one that does it, might end up dividing the country even more. And with no democratic means of expressing that division it might end up turning violent. Although I stress that is an absolute worst-case scenario but there have been examples of this before. Lord of the Llamas posted:The SNP isn't popular because of devolution. The SNP is popular because Labour didn't take it seriously and put mostly second rate idiots in Holyrood against the SNP's first team. If Gordon Brown entered Holyrood and took over Scottish Labour he'd crush them. Much like how Jim Murphy was supposed to crush the SNP in 2015? Brown would likely be able to win his FPTP seat back but it takes more than one man to put out the garbage fire that is Scottish Labour. Leggsy fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:35
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Yorkshire and Northumbria should get regional assemblies so they can argue over who has Teesside.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:38
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Lord of the Llamas posted:The SNP isn't popular because of devolution. The SNP is popular because Labour didn't take it seriously and put mostly second rate idiots in Holyrood against the SNP's first team. If Gordon Brown entered Holyrood and took over Scottish Labour he'd crush them. I doubt it. Sturgeon and Salmond are incredibly charismatic, popular politicians. Brown is very good himself, but hes forever tied to the poison that is Blair and losing all the pounds. More to the point, Scotish labour have conceded so much ground and policy to the SNP that I genuinely don't know what battlegrounds they'd fight on.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:39
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Guavanaut posted:Yorkshire and Northumbria should get regional assemblies so they can argue over who has Teesside. No part of Teesside is is in Northumbria: you're thinking of County Durham. Unless you mean ancient Northumbria, which is an interesting proposition:  Wonder how it voted in EUref?
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Nov 30, 2016 21:43
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Pissflaps posted:No part of Teesside is is in Northumbria: you're thinking of County Durham. I would be happy to not only give this entire area it's own assembly but also independence, possibly at bayonet-point.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:52
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Pissflaps posted:No part of Teesside is is in Northumbria: you're thinking of County Durham. Nationalists HATE him! Man discovers one weird trick to undermine historical legitimacy of regional particularism.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:55
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Guavanaut posted:Child sexual exploitation by a prole 3,075 points Here is an actual example. Posh piano teacher caught with and creating child porn. Suspended sentence. http://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-piano-teacher-evades-jail-after-posting-child-sex-stories-online-1-8264795 Obviously the posh judge thought long and hard about about the balance between retribution, punishment, the risk to children and rehabilitation. It's also perfectly obvious that he thought longer and harder about them than he would have done if he was dealing with a man from a council estate unable to afford posh legal defence.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:57
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Leggsy posted:Much like how Jim Murphy was supposed to crush the SNP in 2015? Brown would likely be able to win his FPTP seat back but it takes more than one man to put out the garbage fire that is Scottish Labour. What? Nobody thought Jim Murphy was going to crush anything. I meant Brown take over Scottish Labour as in stand in a Holyrood seat and show Scotland that Labour took the devolved parliament seriously and was willing to put top tier politicians in it. serious gaylord posted:I doubt it. Sturgeon and Salmond are incredibly charismatic, popular politicians. Brown is very good himself, but hes forever tied to the poison that is Blair and losing all the pounds. More to the point, Scotish labour have conceded so much ground and policy to the SNP that I genuinely don't know what battlegrounds they'd fight on. Given that Brown remained popular in Scotland despite New Labour and it was well known he and Blair hated each other at the end I doubt it'd be much of an issue. I guess we'll never know what this alternative universe might look like but UK Labour bled Scotland dry of any talent and the shallowness of ScotLab's bench is the result. Ruth Davidson sure as poo poo wouldn't be able to pull her unionist single issue bollocks against Brown.
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Nov 30, 2016 22:02
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General China posted:Here is an actual example. Posh piano teacher caught with and creating child porn. Well he wasn't actually creating it (we've had the argument about the confusing to the layperson legal term of "making" of CAI here before), and custodial sentences are rare for this sort of offence which is simply possessing the images - they normally only apply where the person has an extremely large number or is distributing them. I mean you could argue (and I'd certainly agree) that someone with this sort of material and access to children certainly *does* deserve a prison sentence, but it's wrong to say that it was his poshness that kept him out of prison.
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Nov 30, 2016 22:05
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Well he wasn't actually creating it (we've had the argument about the confusing to the layperson legal term of "making" of CAI here before), and custodial sentences are rare for this sort of offence which is simply possessing the images - they normally only apply where the person has an extremely large number or is distributing them. Of course his money got him out of it. The slick representation, the cultural capital, the money to afford it all. Of course it kept him out of prison.
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Nov 30, 2016 22:10
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General China posted:Of course his money got him out of it. I'm not aware of a single case where someone possessing but not distributing CAI has received a custodial sentence (absent aggravating factors) since the end of the Operation Ore fiasco. I've been involved in cases where people with a lot less money and holding a lot more images have received *lesser* sentences.
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Nov 30, 2016 22:22
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Lets not talk about the new report on welfare sanctions be bollocks, let's just show that UKMT is actually incapable of rational discussion on devious secret racist Jocks. loving hell. serious gaylord posted:I doubt it. Sturgeon and Salmond are incredibly charismatic, popular politicians. Brown is very good himself, but hes forever tied to the poison that is Blair and losing all the pounds. More to the point, Scotish labour have conceded so much ground and policy to the SNP that I genuinely don't know what battlegrounds they'd fight on. While you are right that no one person alive could help ScotLab because the rot is institutional & frankly set in a long time before the great electoral collapse of 2015, (While I think Jim Murphy is a useless toerag who should never have been leader in the first place, even he was given an impossible task when he took over as leader and didn't really understand why he quit after a year. If nothing else, he should have been the guy to take the other inevitable hit of Labour's collapse spreading to Holyrood, instead of making Dugdale take that blow for no good reason) you are very wrong on Gordon Brown's being tied to Blair in the mind of most Scots. As is pointed out, Brown has a bit of room away from Tony because their personal enmity is so well known. He's always been far more popular in Scotland than down south, or is saying that playing to Scottish exceptionalism & the rise of an imaginary far right in Scotland? forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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