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We now have a society where the hierarchy is the descendants of the people of who had the most loyal and violent friends and supporters, rather than those people. It's a lot more civilized and they have cocktail parties and stuff. e: 2 - The 2nd sons of the aristocracy got to do the same thing in America for a while.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:08
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Miftan posted:No it doesn't. No it isn't. Its taken and still takes a vast amount of effort to force people to behave in ways other than immediate self-interest. The regulatory state, taxation - the whole apparatus of convincing people that if they don't do what they should, it will go very badly for them. The only way to get people to do the right thing is to prevent them from doing the wrong thing, and the only way to hijack self interest to make it work for the public good is to make people fear punishment. You don't have to convince people that yes, in fact it's also better for them if they pay taxes, because if nobody paid their taxes then... You just have to convince them that it will be much much worse for them, personally, if they fail to do so. It's still good to educate people, it's a democracy and you've got to stop "tax is theft" anarchists from getting a following, but the more pressing concern is making sure that people do what they should, which is both easier and much more fair when you have a state that is able to force them to. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 14:13
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Whoa I was about to seriously reply to hakimishou Lmao that was a close call.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:14
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hakimashou posted:tax is theft" anarchists Trolling aside, and to slightly derail this thread on just page 2, but what do Anarchists propose as an alternative to taxation?
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Nov 1, 2016 14:18
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hakimashou posted:Its taken and still takes a vast amount of effort to force people to behave in ways other than immediate self-interest. The regulatory state, taxation - the whole apparatus of convincing people that if they don't do what they should, it will go very badly for them. If people understand that paying taxes to support the worse off in society is in their interest then you won't need the state to back it up with 'OR ELSE', that's the point. In fact, anarchists think that the threat by the government helps swing more people to the propertarian argument because nobody likes being pushed around. Even if self interest was the only thing humans were capable of (and there's plenty of examples to the contrary), pooling your resources to help people who don't have it as good as you WORKS IN YOUR OWN INTEREST. This is basically a debate about human nature, and so I'll stop this debate with you. Of course you have a pessemistic view of human nature, because you're a racist, slavery loving, genocide apologist and I hope you stub your toe as soon as you wake up every morning, you sack of human poo poo. The DPRK posted:Trolling aside, and to slightly derail this thread on just page 2, but what do Anarchists propose as an alternative to taxation? It depends on who you ask, most anarchists are either communist or socialist. They believe that people will give what they used to pay in tax to the less fortunate to help them because they recognize it as the decent thing to do, rather than be forced to do it by the state. Most of them aren't even opposed to a system that will help collect and distribute those 'donations' as long as it doesn't force anyone to do so (again, because it won't be needed). Miftan fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 14:20
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The DPRK posted:Trolling aside, and to slightly derail this thread on just page 2, but what do Anarchists propose as an alternative to taxation? That's pretty much the central differentiating feature between the various forms of anarchism.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:22
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Grouchio posted:What's the November 9th Party? The day after US Elections surely but what is there to celebrate? It's my birthday 
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Nov 1, 2016 14:40
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nopantsjack posted:Labour are hosed. Their last hope is another loving boring white man but this one was a soldier? There's no alternative to Corbyn. He won. Twice, with an increased mandate. This is Corbyn's party now, until the end. I don't know why people in this thread aren't happy? This is all you guys wanted! The hated PLP were crushed and after the next election will not be an issue!
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Nov 1, 2016 14:42
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nopantsjack posted:Labour are hosed. Their last hope is another loving boring white man but this one was a soldier? Except in the second scenario the Labour party has to do it with at best half the money once the membership evaporates
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Nov 1, 2016 14:45
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Miftan posted:It depends on who you ask, most anarchists are either communist or socialist. They believe that people will give what they used to pay in tax to the less fortunate to help them because they recognize it as the decent thing to do, rather than be forced to do it by the state. And when people don't do this, what is the solution? mediadave posted:There's no alternative to Corbyn. He won. Twice, with an increased mandate. This is Corbyn's party now, until the end. The voters are the new problem. Turns out they're really uncooperative.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:45
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mediadave posted:It's my birthday Happy 9/11. mediadave posted:There's no alternative to Corbyn. He won. Twice, with an increased mandate. This is Corbyn's party now, until the end. Because you don't celebrate after step 1 of 200.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:45
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Guavanaut posted:We now have a society where the hierarchy is the descendants of the people of who had the most loyal and violent friends and supporters, rather than those people. quote:The startling observation in this data is that social mobility rates in China under communism, even with the execution and exile of significant numbers of the middle and upper classes, have been just as low as in countries that have not experienced such turmoil. In particular, despite Mao's best efforts, even in the machinery of central government, the thirteen Qing elite surnames are more prevalent than expected. Despite Mao's best efforts, "class enemies" are strongly entrenched within the current Communist government of China. that aside. For all that, Britain does remain a country where social spending remains comfortably in the 20%-of-GDP ballpark; any argument must start from the reality that the status quo is a regulatory welfare state, with net downward transfers through the bureaucratic state, not upward transfers.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:46
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mfcrocker posted:That's pretty much the central differentiating feature between the various forms of anarchism. The unifying feature being that they are all fuckwits. Last time we had the anarchism debate in this thread I had it patiently explained to me that when nobody is telling anyone what to do the people will naturally cooperate in a way they cannot be forced, persuaded or instructed to do under any existing form of government.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:56
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Britain is really bad for intergenerational inelasticity. Maybe not as bad as China, but we should be looking to improve, not saying "hey, at least we're not as bad as China". The DPRK posted:Trolling aside, and to slightly derail this thread on just page 2, but what do Anarchists propose as an alternative to taxation? That's more of an end goal though, whereas I think anarchism is more interesting for the directions that it pulls in than any hypothetical end of history scenario.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:57
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Pissflaps posted:And when people don't do this, what is the solution? I might be wrong but I guess some sort of social exclusion. So you're not coerced by force into anything but if you're sitting on a bunch of wealth and refuse to play ball everyone is going to call you a giant poo poo and ostracise you. But then what do I know anarchism is dumb imho
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Nov 1, 2016 15:05
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https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/793448972362940416 That's a hell of a stat.
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Nov 1, 2016 15:07
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Guavanaut posted:Britain is really bad for intergenerational inelasticity. at least for the UK, a lot of it is the impact of education reform sharply improving education for the middle third, without doing much for the bottom this is not something that's going to go away, I think, given the nature of the labour-tory divide - nobody really has answers. If you say "let's mobilize the workers", you are only making things worse - a majority of the bottom third (20-25% nationally of the working age cohort, depending how you measure it) do not work. They're long term dependents, either on private or state wealth. If you say, "let's educate them", well, improving educational opportunities is what got you these ghastly numbers to begin with
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Nov 1, 2016 15:10
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Pissflaps posted:And when people don't do this, what is the solution? The idea is that a well educated populace wouldn't object to this. The classic anarchists I've read go on about how jails need to have a good standard of living and a good plan on how to reintroduce criminals back into society as useful members so that even killers and rapists can and should be rehabilitated. It's all very interesting, but as I said before it boils down to your view of human nature. Even the most optimistic anarchist would say that you have A LOT of work ahead of you in order to reach anything even resembling the anarchist utopia. Personally I think we have gone too far in the other direction for it to work unless we get Spanish Civil War 2: Anarchist Bugaloo.
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Nov 1, 2016 15:27
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Today is my first day of unemployment, friends. When can I expect to get the deed to my bennies mansion?
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Nov 1, 2016 15:30
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well-educated people already exist; do they strike you as the model citizens of Syndicalia?
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Nov 1, 2016 15:31
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I think the fact that the power structure that allows them to abuse others exists is also part of the problem. It's not like once everybody is educated they'll start being more compassionate and there's a lot of anarchist writing on how to deal with the dickheads (like the prisons I noted above), but that in absence of a power structure, most people would cooperate and help each other. In other words, imagine if those very well educated people weren't living in their multi million pound mansions and laughing at the poor, but were the poor. They'd probably think cooperation is a better idea. There's other ways to deal with those who don't.
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Nov 1, 2016 15:38
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does British society have a good record of popular justice? when the British people at large feel powerless, do they swing towards promises to abolish power, or promises to give them power over others? How about the British people who are poor, by the standards of the modern UK - which way do they swing?
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Nov 1, 2016 15:44
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I don't think anarchists are preoccupied with british people specifically, ronya.
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Nov 1, 2016 15:45
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Miftan posted:I don't think anarchists are preoccupied with british people specifically, ronya. pick your developed or developing country of choice
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Nov 1, 2016 15:46
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ronya posted:pick your developed or developing country of choice The anarchists in Spain did quite well until the communists and fascists came along? I'll admit that I don't know enough history beyond the spanish civil war (and probably not even on that) to debate the historical side of this with you.
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Nov 1, 2016 15:48
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Anarchism ain't happening guys
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Nov 1, 2016 16:01
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JFairfax posted:Anarchism ain't happening guys Careful now. It's a touchy subject. Pissflaps made a joke with that punchline yesterday and look where it got him
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Nov 1, 2016 16:04
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mediadave posted:There's no alternative to Corbyn. He won. Twice, with an increased mandate. This is Corbyn's party now, until the end. I love your lovely passive aggressive tone. The subtle implication that Corbyn actually shouldn't be leader while acknowledging the increased mandate. Hinting that maybe the crushing of the PLP wasn't actually a good thing despite them being horrible horrible people. All constructed around the Pissflappian premise that what should have happened is some center-rightist should have been leader along with a rightward shift of all Labour policy then we'd have a chance for 2020 guys! I totally don't see what the problem is with Labour becoming the second Tory party if that's what it takes to win!!!!! I HAVE NO CRITICAL THINKING CAPACITY PLEASE KILL ME IT HURTS!!!!!! You managed to compress a lot into such a lovely overly sarcastic fart of a post. Most of us are happy with Corbyn you dumbass. We're not happy with the country, the public, the Tories and the media. Corbyn is a nice man who makes jam. gently caress off.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:04
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He should stick to making jam.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:05
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on the news:quote:She called on peers to implement a version of a key recommendation of the Leveson inquiry – that the victims of phone hacking should be protected from paying the costs of bringing their claims against newspapers in the civil courts. Such a move would potentially expose the press to two bills following a claim.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:18
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So did Michael Heseltine strangle an Alsatian to death or not
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Nov 1, 2016 16:24
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I heard it's the only way that he can reach climax
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Nov 1, 2016 16:28
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Miftan posted:If people understand that paying taxes to support the worse off in society is in their interest then you won't need the state to back it up with 'OR ELSE', that's the point. In fact, anarchists think that the threat by the government helps swing more people to the propertarian argument because nobody likes being pushed around. Not nearly enough people understand it though. And everyone has to do it, so what does that leave you? You need to be able to make them. People lose track of a fundamental fact of truth: you don't need to win an argument to be right. It's hard enough to get real people to pay taxes or support welfare even when you've got confiscation and imprisonment in the toolbox. You're batshit crazy if you think people would do it out of the goodness of their hearts. ETA Miftan, Tthough I hate to spoil the SA fun for you, some idiot goon from the video games bought me this AV for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with D&D or slavery or racism. Sorry if it lead to confusion, but far be it from me to waste another goon's hard earned  by changing it back.
hakimashou fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 16:32
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kustomkarkommando posted:So did Michael Heseltine strangle an Alsatian to death or not So what if he did? Let's see: child abuse inquiry infinitely delayed, IDS made up his degrees and nothing happened to him, Liam Fox was blatantly corrupt and is now a minister again after a brief period of pillorying, Theresa May blocks immigration detention rape inquiry to protect G4S share price and is now the prime minister, hacking scandal/leveson happens and all the recommendations get ignored, half of leading Brexit figures wrote articles on why Brexit is bad, etc., etc. It's not like the public seems to care. VVVVV It might be getting some play, but both BBC and the right-wing rags are like "Well he strangled him and the dog seemed to faint, but it's not clear if he died then or was later put down by a vet." Private Speech fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 16:32
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I think strangling a dog to death would probably get a bit of play in the papers
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Nov 1, 2016 16:35
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What I read said that he took the dog to be put down the next day. This was like half a century ago as well.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:40
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ronya posted:does British society have a good record of popular justice? How did the brexit vote break down on class lines? We know the English are bad since they voted for brexit, but which English among them are the worst? Which socio economic groups are most pro brexit and most anti?
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Nov 1, 2016 16:42
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Jeza posted:What I read said that he took the dog to be put down the next day. This was like half a century ago as well. Hiding the evidence!
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Nov 1, 2016 16:42
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A lot of articles have gingerly pointed out that rumours that heseltine strangled a dog to death have apparently been swirling around Westminster for years
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Nov 1, 2016 16:43
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Regarde Aduck posted:
That's your message? That's your plan? To describe any opposition to Brexit, austerity and racism based on engagement with actually-existing voters as 'a shift to the right'? Corbyn is a.nice man who makes jam, and is killing the future of this country by undermining any viable alternative. He's the political version of that plan to eliminate mosquitoes by releasing sterile ones that are supposed to fill the relevant ecological niche and then die without issue.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:44
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