Action-Puzzle Game Megathread - Puyo Tetris Attack coming to Switch in 2020

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Tempura Wizard: Sep 15, 2006; spending all
spending
spending all my time

It's the dedicated action-puzzle game thread of your dreams!
�Let's discuss puzzle games and argue about how the Tetris Company is ruining Tetris!
�Let's arrange games on Puyo Tetris as an alternative to getting bodied by Japanese randos!
�Let's lament the fact that Nintendo will never make a true Puzzle League game again!
�Let's talk about obscure one-offs!

Including, but not limited to:
Tetris
Released for basically every platform since its creation, Tetris games range from wonderful to unplayable. EA currently holds the license in the west and has released some pretty tepid versions for current platforms. Everyone has a different gold standard, but fan favorites include the original Gameboy version, Tetris DS, and the Tetris: The Grand Master series for arcade.

Puyo Puyo
Overshadowed by Tetris but no less enthralling, Puyo Puyo or Puyo Pop has seen a handful of western releases but remains largely Japan-only. Players user colored blobs to create chain reactions in order to attack an opponent. Unlike Tetris, all modern versions are created by Sega so there's some uniformity to the ruleset and releases. The current ~~definitive~~ release is Puyo Puyo Tetris. A new version with RPG elements, Puyo Puyo Chronicle, is planned for release.

dragon enthusiast posted:

Puyo Puyo is one of the most celebrated puzzle franchises in videogaming, and is in fact celebrating its 25th anniversary today. With fast-paced gameplay and a brutal skill curve, the series has enjoyed a long-running competitive scene all these years - in fact it could be considered one of the oldest continuously active "esports" out there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbf-Z2IgnVY

While I don't have illusions about whether or not Puyo is a fighting game, I find it striking that many of the fundamental techniques in fighters have equivalents in Puyo, and that core philosophies of competition - that putting in work directly correlates to a better chance of winning, and that CPUs are no substitute for real human players - are expressed better in Puyo than any other VS Puzzle game out there. Why is this so? The first reason is pretty simple: making puzzle chains directly hinders the opponent's ability to play. Unlike Tetris, in which garbage gets placed below the opponent's playing field, or Puzzle League, where garbage can be cleared to give the opponent even more opportunities to match, "nuisance" puyo represents a real and effective form of attack in puzzle gaming.

The second reason is a bit more complex, but can be explained through a short history lesson. Most English-speaking players are only familiar with the original Puyo Puyo game (commonly abbreviated as OPP), since it was rebranded outside of Japan as both Mean Bean Machine and Kirby's Avalanche. In Puyo, making higher chains sends an exponentially higher amount of garbage, meaning you are incentivized to build as large a chain as possible. However, in OPP, after about a 5 chain, enough garbage is sent to fill up the opponent's screen completely. So while you could make a higher chain to deal more damage, there is virtually no point to doing so, and likewise trying to set off a smaller chain to prevent the opponent from reaching the magic number is seldom worth it. In effect, the winning strategy in OPP was to race to make a 5 chain as quickly as possible then stall like your life depended on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHBueW9BdL8

In the sequel, Puyo Puyo Tsuu (abbreviated Tsuu), a new system was added: garbage that was about to fall on your field could be offset with a chain of your own, and with a large enough counterattack you could send garbage right back to the opponent. This, in effect, finally allowed players to play defense in Puyo, and completely revolutionized the way the game was played. OPP is generally considered a historical footnote today - Puyo Puyo Tetris uses the Tsuu ruleset under the hood, and the Puyo minigame in the upcoming Yakuza 6 game, despite being simply titled "Puyo Puyo" also actually runs Tsuu.

you can watch this on the side while reading the rest and see if you can recognize any of the situations I am about to describe I guess
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFHwGzzQagk

In fighting games, a core concept of the genre revolves around the notion of "footsies", the idea of trying to gain ground in the neutral game to put yourself in an advantageous situation over your opponent while trying to prevent yourself from falling victim to the same. A similar push-and-pull system exists in Puyo through the use of the systems I mentioned previously.

Essentially, trying to attack first with a big chain is often a death sentence in Puyo, since with a symmetrical playing field the opponent can easily build a larger chain and counterattack in the time it takes for your chain to finish popping. Instead, what you can try to do is pressure your opponent with a smaller chain, a technique known as "harassment". In this situation your opponent is forced to make a series of unenviable decisions:
1) Take the damage from the harassment, cutting off access to their chain and giving you the go-ahead to rain hellfire upon them
2) Counter with the primary chain they've been building, giving you time to build a bigger chain of your own
3) Try to offset just the harassment without setting off their entire main chain, potentially ruining their build

Of course, a good opponent is well aware of the negative consequences of a "poke" in Puyo, and they will build their own harassments and counter-harassments while searching for the perfect opportunity to strike... not to mention simultaneously hardening their base chain from attacks by you while trying to outspeed your pace of play. It's a lot to keep track of, and managing it all is what has led to such a deep metagame. Take a look at the chain setups here to get a taste of what players have developed over the course of 25 years, and realize that new tech gets developed even now. If there exists a skill ceiling in Puyo, nobody has been able to reach it yet.

Tetris Attack
Also known as Puzzle League or Panel de Pon, this Nintendo puzzler has a rabid following despite it not receiving a true dedicated button-based version since the Gameboy Advance (or Gamecube if you want to get pedantic). Most people are familiar with and prefer the SNES version, Tetris Attack. Most recently, a single-player version was added to Animal Crossing: New Leaf.

Honorable Mentions
Dr. Mario � Magical Drop � Puzzle Bobble � Lumines � Puzzle Fighter

Discord

OP beatification to follow.

Tempura Wizard fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Nov 3, 2016

# ? Nov 3, 2016 17:45

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# ? May 5, 2024 00:36

Tempura Wizard: Sep 15, 2006; spending all
spending
spending all my time

PSNs for Puyo Tetris
TheBardSpeaks

# ? Nov 3, 2016 17:58

Bonby: Jan 13, 2008; Annoying Dog

Even after all these years, I still have an obsession with Tetris Attack (panel de pon) type games. I hope we get some sort of new one on the Switch.

# ? Nov 3, 2016 19:18

Tempura Wizard: Sep 15, 2006; spending all
spending
spending all my time

BobbyBaudoin posted:

Even after all these years, I still have an obsession with Tetris Attack (panel de pon) type games. I hope we get some sort of new one on the Switch.

In my mind, Tetris Attack remains one of the foremost examples of a skill-based game next to a fighting game. I've seen someone who (in our group of friends) I thought was unbeatable at the game get completely wrecked by a total stranger who was better at it.

I still struggle to even make a 5-chain consistently. :negative:

The real shame is we could have easily gotten a PanePon game with button controls and online play. Instead we get the same Arika retread of Dr. Mario with netplay.

Tempura Wizard fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Nov 3, 2016

# ? Nov 3, 2016 19:35

Tempura Wizard: Sep 15, 2006; spending all
spending
spending all my time

Quote is not edit, off to a great start! I'll change this to an effortpost of Tetris history and rulesets later.

Tempura Wizard fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Nov 3, 2016

# ? Nov 3, 2016 19:39

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

Puyo Puyo Tetris is so devoid of content that I can't agree with calling it the definitive version, although it is probably the most import friendly with current-gen consoles. The previous game, Puyo Puyo!! 20th Anniversary, has a lot more stuff to do and has a very serviceable tutorial mode that has the goal of teaching you how to make a 10 chain. Puyo Chronicles appears to be a strict upgrade to 20th based on available previews, so I'm hoping it delivers.

The most popular clone game is Puyo VS, which is primarily focused on netplay. It's free and weird people on the internet have made a lot of graphical mods for it!
http://puyovs.net

Did you know that Puyo Puyo tournaments are still aired on Japanese television today! Puyo Puyo 2, due to a key tweak in how garbage puyo is delivered, has become the de facto competitive standard ruleset over the years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCFLwbSPSs0

Here is a post I made in the FG thread about pro level Puyo
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3772278&perpage=40&pagenumber=173#post465711378

dragon enthusiast fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Nov 3, 2016

# ? Nov 3, 2016 19:57

Bonby: Jan 13, 2008; Annoying Dog

I'm terrible at Puyo Puyo, I want to be good at it yet I get destroyed by even the easiest AI. That puyo puyo 20th anniversary sounds like a good place to properly start.

# ? Nov 3, 2016 20:10

Tempura Wizard: Sep 15, 2006; spending all
spending
spending all my time

dragon enthusiast posted:

Puyo Puyo

Fair enough, I do love 20th since it has the greatest number of rulesets available, but PPT appears to be a good option from a casual standpoint and remains sort of a "bang for your buck" situation, as it manages to be better than EA's current Tetris offerings.

I cut my teeth playing Tsuu and have enjoyed the series since, which makes me a bit sad that most people are only familiar with the localized versions of the original game, cutting out any nuance that countering provides.

Mind if I put a credited version of your amazing post in the OP?

Tempura Wizard fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Nov 3, 2016

# ? Nov 3, 2016 20:35

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

Sure go ahead

Puyo Tetris is definitely real casual friendly, but a lot of outsiders seem to struggle on the Puyo segments of story mode since the game does a terrible job of teaching you anything beyond the basic rules. I think the PS4/XBONE versions let you skip chapters if you fail them too much (all the DLC plus a whole lot of features absent from the last-gen versions were quietly added) so I'd try to buy those two editions if I were interested.

# ? Nov 3, 2016 20:49

Paul.Power: Feb 7, 2009; The three roles of APCs:
Transports.
Supply trucks.
Distractions.

I liked Puyo Puyo 2 a fair bit, although the thing I remember most about it is the music.

Giving a shout-out to DS 2007 action puzzler Meteos, which was huge fun and did great things with giving each world its own physics - which added a hell of a lot of replayability.

Paul.Power fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Nov 3, 2016

# ? Nov 3, 2016 20:54

Tempura Wizard: Sep 15, 2006; spending all
spending
spending all my time

Paul.Power posted:

Meteos

Meteos was a pretty cool puzzler, and remains one of the best early titles for the DS. I remember spending a long time grinding out levels for different tilesets! Some of the planet themes and soundfonts were pretty hit-or-miss.

Why do I get the feeling I'm going to be re-buying a bunch of puzzle games due to this thread?

# ? Nov 3, 2016 20:59

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

The original creator of Puyo, Moo Niitani (there's a sad story about his fate here) has been making a new action puzzle game called Nyoki Nyoki, based off of an old Compile game called Pochi & Nyaa. There's a few potato videos on YouTube showing dev builds and it looks real retro

# ? Nov 3, 2016 21:03

Tempura Wizard: Sep 15, 2006; spending all
spending
spending all my time

dragon enthusiast posted:

Nyoki Nyoki

I had forgotten all about this! I think the 3DS version comes out before the end of the year. Based on how it looks, I think it's safe to assume it'll be more engaging than Octomania, but that's sort of a low wall to jump over.

Also, I had no idea that's how Compile went under. :smith:

Or that Moo's design notes for Puyo amounted to "Dr. Mario but with VS and GOOD GRAFX".

Tempura Wizard fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 3, 2016

# ? Nov 3, 2016 21:07

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

Puyo Tetris tournament at SegaFest!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6YZv266F_U (pools plus bonus footage of a top Japanese Tetris players slaughtering grown men alive around 1:54:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2i5Z9_-pKo&t=17336s (finals)

Next big PPT tournament is at Red Bull 5G on December 18

# ? Nov 20, 2016 20:35

Looper: Mar 1, 2012

comin in to say Lip's Theme is the best track in Super Smash Bros Brawl

# ? Nov 20, 2016 22:12

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

Nyoki-Nyoki is out in Japan now, the multiplayer mode is local-only and I don't think any of the big English-speaking Puyo nerds are digging into it yet so I don't know if it'll hold up.

Puyo Chronicle (3DS) is getting a demo in Japan this week, too.

# ? Nov 20, 2016 23:54

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

Where's Nyoki Nyoki being sold?

# ? Nov 21, 2016 02:45

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

3DS eShop, Japan-only for now. They said they have plans for a console/PC version with online multiplayer and a single-player RPG mode but I think those plans are predicated on this first version selling well.

# ? Nov 21, 2016 03:56

Tempura Wizard: Sep 15, 2006; spending all
spending
spending all my time

Nyoki Nyoki trip report: It's just okay. I'm mostly thrown off by how it encourages horizontal length of color groups over combos, and even goes as far to discourage large combos by making your activation pieces turn to garbage after some time.

The mechanic where you can choose when to send garbage to your opponent is an interesting idea, and encourages awareness of your foe's board state. In practice with CPUs, however, you can just dunk on them immediately when you have over 20 garbage in the chamber and then roll into a win while hammering the garbage button.

All in all it feels a little brainless, and is certainly no Puyo.

# ? Nov 30, 2016 19:29

Echo Chamber: Oct 16, 2008; best username/post combo

So who holds the rights to Bullet Proof Software? Henk Rogers?

I want a rerelease of Hatris, drat it!

# ? Nov 30, 2016 19:53

Minidust: Nov 4, 2009; Keep bustin'

Has anyone tried Tumblestone? From what I gather, it's like the "Skullgirls" of puzzle games - developed by longtime fans of the genre, designed heavily around competitive play, a decidedly indie style to the presentation that may rub some the wrong way. It's got full 4-player support so I'm itching to find out of this thing is good.

On a more general subject... my favorite Tetris ever is "The Next Tetris" on PS1/Dreamcast. New Tetris on N64 seems to get all the love from that time period, but NEXT was my jam. A unique round-based structure that had me and my buds playing into the wee hours of the morning. Some may scoff at the lack of garbage and ability to infinite-spin your pieces, but one has to realize that you're really just racing your opponent to the bottom. Attacks will cause your opponent's board to flip, spin, or even turn dark - all merely aesthetic things, but they'll waste your opponent's valuable time while you keep on drilling.

NEXT went all-in on the "cascade" mechanic (different colors separate and fall, same colors stick together) and I now find it hard to love a competitive Tetris without it. A rudimentary profile system put the demanding-for-the-time 2 blocks of PS1 memory card space to good use. I've still got records on there from random folks who stopped by my dorm in college. Also this game allowed you to pop out the CD after the initial load and play a music CD as the soundtrack, even letting you to change tracks and volumes with the shoulder buttons. One of the first console games to ever support custom soundtracks as far as I know! As a teen at the turn of the century I rocked out to so much RATM and Korn while Tetrissing with my bros :rock:

# ? Nov 30, 2016 20:20

WeedlordGoku69: Feb 12, 2015; by Cyrano4747

dragon enthusiast posted:

The original creator of Puyo, Moo Niitani (there's a sad story about his fate here)

Jesus christ :stare:

Someone should set up a GoFundMe for him or something, that's horrible.

# ? Nov 30, 2016 20:27

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

im hype that puyo puyo hd is finally coming to the west in the form of a yakuza 6 minigame

# ? Dec 3, 2016 22:25

Zand: Jul 9, 2003; ~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

anyone got dirt on Spaera? Is it good or being maintained by people that aren't garbage?

also where is the scene for warios woods?

# ? Dec 12, 2016 21:48

Echo Chamber: Oct 16, 2008; best username/post combo

In general I wish Nintendo took better care of their puzzle franchises.

# ? Dec 12, 2016 22:01

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

Echo Chamber posted:

In general I wish Nintendo took better care of their puzzle franchises.

There's no money in them - the market expects them to be f2p or very cheap and there aren't many ways to generate additional revenue from them without overloading them with dumb pay-to-win bullshit or doing things that Nintendo will never fully embrace (esports/gambling).

# ? Dec 13, 2016 00:19

Echo Chamber: Oct 16, 2008; best username/post combo

I'm guessing current video game economics pretty much means every Nintendo puzzle series save Dr. Mario won't get released on every platform?

Dr. Luigi on the Wii U is the kind of like "all I ask for" with comparable releases with Puzzle League, Yoshi's Cookie, Kirby's Star Stacker, Wario's Woods, etc. I still remember being disappointed that the GameCube Puzzle Collection wasn't released in the states.

# ? Dec 13, 2016 00:33

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

Pretty much, yeah, and there are other issues for particular games - Nintendo doesn't own Yoshi's Cookie, Tetris Attack has been sold in a few different forms which makes it hard to promote, etc.

Puyo has the benefit of an original universe with popular characters that makes it an easier sell in Japan but none of the other falling-block franchises have that same appeal.

# ? Dec 13, 2016 01:09

darealkooky: Sep 15, 2011; You sayin' I like dubs?!?

The only vs puzzle games I've given any time to are puyo fever & tetris battle gaiden.

I'm a pretty scrub player though so I dunno if those games hold up at all.

# ? Dec 17, 2016 23:33

Prowler: May 24, 2004

Was going to create this thread long ago, but couldn't come up with a good enough name for the genre. Puzzle game is too vague, and match-3 is too specific.

Love Panic Bomber, Tetris Attack/Puzzle League, Meteos, Lumines, Wario's Woods, Columns, Puyo Puyo--hell, Kirby's Star Stacker was fun (the SNES version is entertaining enough)...

Yeah, Nintendo has a ton of great puzzle properties that could dominate mobile if implemented correctly. Seriously. Tetris Attack has been done on DS.

I wish there were an Lumines HD for PC, at the very least.

Anyone have recommendations for action puzzle games for PC and ~~mobile~~? Might & Magic: Clash of Heroes was fun and different!

Prowler fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Dec 18, 2016

# ? Dec 18, 2016 03:12

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

Lumines Puzzle & Music came out a little while ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8OhDkYUy5k

also Puyo Fever is alright, matches can take a little long and its probably more complicated than it needs to be.

# ? Dec 18, 2016 03:41

Zand: Jul 9, 2003; ~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

is the new lumines still easily solvable by doing the same thing until you get bored and turn it off

edit: looks like it

Zand fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Dec 18, 2016

# ? Dec 18, 2016 06:07

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

Has anyone played that Tumblestone game? I got sent a bunch of press releases that claimed it was "the first truly new puzzle game in two decades" or some bullshit and that turned me right off but I could believe it might be okay.

# ? Dec 18, 2016 06:09

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

Has anyone played that Tumblestone game? I got sent a bunch of press releases that claimed it was "the first truly new puzzle game in two decades" or some bullshit and that turned me right off but I could believe it might be okay.

that just sounds like indie ~professional game designer~ fartz lol

red bull 5g is going on now, the Puyo+Tetris vs Puyo+Tetris team finals are taking place at some point
https://www.twitch.tv/redbulljapan

# ? Dec 18, 2016 06:56