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I miss my girlfriend :'( EDIT: TELL ME ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY SIDE OF A LONG-DISTANCE RELATIONSHIP Short story: She lives in the UK and I live in Western Canada. We met online through fannish means (aka we both write fanfic) were really good friends for months and became super gay for each other (we're both women). We silently pined for the other for months so we didn't come off as a  predatory lesbian. Eventually she visited (as a friend) and by the end of the trip she had confessed and then we started dating.We've been dating for three months. We talk via text for literally hours a day, skype at least once a week, and we have never run out of things to talk about. Our communication is strong, our trust is strong, we send each other letters and packages. We read to each other over skype and sometimes watch netflix together. Our plan is for her to get a work visa and move here. Because I'm in classes for 2/3rds of the year, it's not really viable for us to meet several times a year. Plus a round trip plane ticket is like $1200 CAD. So far we have a rate of twice a year planned (she's visiting me on Valentine's Day) it's not nearly enough, but we'll be okay. ANYWAY, I wanted to ask about some good options for simulcast multimedia streaming, preferably with webcams involved. BASICALLY WE WANNA WATCH NETFLIX/DAILYMOTION/YOUTUBE/OUR OWN VIDEOS AND ALSO SEE EACH OTHER'S FACE. I've been through the LDR subreddit a few times, but they all suggest the same app/websites and those aren't really what I'm looking for. Rabbit is nice, but the uncustomizable layout is really annoying. Share screen on skype doesn't really work because my webcam is attached to my laptop and my laptop is old and slow as gently caress so I can't run a video and skype at the same time. I thought I vaguely remembered a livestream service where one person could stream something (my pc), and then viewers (my girlfriend and my laptop) could connect their webcams and talk about it at the same time? vivisecting fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 07:26
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Just came out the back end of a forced three year long distance (loooong distance - USA to Germany) with my partner while I postdocced here in the States and she did her PhD in Germany. Both of our families are back home in New Zealand. My advice to you is threefold A) have an endgame. This is critical. Have a timeframe/exit plan on the distance closing. B) total trust. If you don't, it's gonna blow up in your face. C) regular visits. We did every three months, and that was probably too infrequent. If you don't have all three of those,  your relationship, I guess.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:54
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1. Don't be in a long-distance relationship if you're not committed to making your relationship a permanent one. It's not worth it unless you're in it for the long haul. 2. As previously mentioned, don't be in a long-distance relationship indefinitely. Have a specific end date. 3. Communicate every day, even if it's just a text or an email saying "Thinking of you, no need for a reply, love you" or telling an anecdote about your day. Doesn't have to be a forced, awkward phone conversation or Skype session all the time, just keep them part of your everyday routine. 4. See each other in person as frequently as possible. 5. Any decisions you make about sex (whether opening up the sexual part of the relationship or committing to regular phone/Skype sex or deciding that sex is going to be off the table while you're apart) should be made with full self-knowledge after careful and honest examination of your needs and priorities. Source: my spouse and I were in a long-distance relationship for about a year and a half, all-told, before we were married. It wasn't great but we got through it.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:43
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How far are you guys, for how long, and what reason?
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Nov 11, 2016 23:39
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Basically everything that has been said. I would also add that it can be helpful to schedule joint activities if you are far enough apart that you can't see each other frequently. I'm currently in an LDR and my partner and I watch one of our favourite shows together every week. We also occasionally do a movie night where we both watch the same movie and talk on the phone at the same time. Some people might not be so into that but we've found it helpful. Bill and Melinda Gates used to go and see the same movie in theatres and then talk about it afterwards. I think it helps keep the other person part of your day to day life. Also, I would say make sure you're prompt with your texts (like funny leave it a day or two). My partner and I used to touch base everyday because we lived together, and we've tried to keep that constant now that we're long distance. That doesn't mean constantly keeping tabs on the other person, more like a text saying have a good night out on a Friday evening or whatever. Communication is especially important if you have any trust stuff, and if either of you is of the type to shut down/become asocial when stressed. Lastly, if either of you lives with roommates, in your parents' house or has any kind of communal living situation, consider springing for a hotel or air bnb for at least one night when you do see each. Alone time is really important, and if you're only seeing each other infrequently it's really nice to just exist with your partner and not have to worry about anyone else. Goosed it. fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 02:31
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Here's an older thread about this from last year- http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3755405&pagenumber=1&perpage=40 Same thing every time: 1. Don't have an LDR they are hell wtf 2. Have an end date or don't bother trying.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:35
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Chinaman7000 posted:How far are you guys, for how long, and what reason? HMM I swear my original post detailed our relationship and what I hoped to get out of this thread, but instead I guess I just left it as some sad, pathetic sentence.  Short version: She lives in the UK and I live in Western Canada. We met online through fannish means (aka we both write fanfic) were really good friends for months and became super gay for each other (we're both women). We silently pined for the other for months so we didn't come off as a predatory lesbian . Eventually she visited (as a friend) and by the end of the trip she had confessed and then we started dating.We've been dating for three months. We talk via text for literally hours a day, skype at least once a week, and we have never run out of things to talk about. Our communication is strong, our trust is strong, we send each other letters and packages. We read to each other over skype and sometimes watch netflix together. Our plan is for her to get a work visa and move here. Because I'm in classes for 2/3rds of the year, it's not really viable for us to meet several times a year. Plus a round trip plane ticket is like $1200 CAD. So far we have a rate of twice a year planned (she's visiting me on Valentine's Day) it's not nearly enough, but we'll be okay. ANYWAY, I wanted to ask about some good options for simulcast multimedia streaming, preferably with webcams involved. BASICALLY WE WANNA WATCH NETFLIX/DAILYMOTION/YOUTUBE/OUR OWN VIDEOS AND ALSO SEE EACH OTHER'S FACE.I've been through the LDR subreddit a few times, but they all suggest the same app/websites and those aren't really what I'm looking for. Rabbit is nice, but the uncustomizable layout is really annoying. Share screen on skype doesn't really work because my webcam is attached to my laptop and my laptop is old and slow as gently caress so I can't run a video and skype at the same time. I thought I vaguely remembered a livestream service where one person could stream something (my pc), and then viewers (my girlfriend and my laptop) could connect their webcams and talk about it at the same time?
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Nov 12, 2016 11:00
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You're only going to see each other twice a year? Are you really more than just close friends at that point? I had a successful LDR that worked out and made it to just being a regular Relationship. But going back in time I absolutely would not do it again and that was seeing each other once or sometimes twice a month; let alone twice a year. But if you have a video etc you want to watch at the same time you can usually just load up the video on each computer and hit play at the same time.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:22
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Pretty much every successful ldr I've ever heard of did not start as a ldr. Starting a relationship as a ldr completely stunts the whole thing...there are things that happen early in a relationship that are essential for a good lasting healthy relationship and it requires face to face communication. Skype isn't a substitute either. There's also a big selection problem,people who choose to start an ldr are very often people who can't handle real relationships (which is why they even consider staying with someone on the other side of the world). Very often this leads to relationships that go on far longer than their sell by date. Like relationships that probably wouldn't have even lasted a couple months if the people lived close to each other going on for years. It's very easy to paper over issues with the distance, you can always ignore the bad things that are impossible to ignore when you are close. Basically good loving luck, you have basically everything going against you. International ldr's in particular are virtually always a complete disaster. Let's put it this way, relationships even with everything going for you are a huge challenge, you're doing the equivalent of going against a pro boxer with your hands tied behind your back. And your legs broken.
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Nov 16, 2016 18:24
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I wrote a long post but Awful App deleted it  . Anyway, the gist of it was similar to what the last two posters said, except with some advice. First, short bursts of intense in person interaction is not at all similar to actually being with a person in the same place. If you only see someone for 2 weeks if the year it's really easy for both people to be on their best behaviour, and for both people to clear their schedules so the nitty gritty of life doesn't really show-up. It's easy to love someone from far away or when on vacation. With that said, I strongly encourage one of you to visit the other for a longer chunk of time before your girlfriend moved to western Canada. If you're a student and a Canadian citizen you should be able to get a working travel visa pretty easily. Spend next summer in the UK with your girlfriend before she up roots her life for you. If you're not willing to consider that, or don't seriously look into a way to make something like that work, then I definitely don't think either of you should uproot for the long term.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:26
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Also you have to accept that you will often be really sad or depressed every time your friends hang out with their SO's and you're still waiting another 5 months and 1200 dollar plane ticket for your semi-annual date.
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Nov 16, 2016 22:23
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Goosed it. posted:Spend next summer in the UK with your girlfriend before she up roots her life for you. If you're not willing to consider that, or don't seriously look into a way to make something like that work, then I definitely don't think either of you should uproot for the long term.
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Nov 17, 2016 02:11
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SuperiorColliculus posted:A) have an endgame. This is critical. Have a timeframe/exit plan on the distance closing. These are pretty solid rules. Having done one for three years (My wife and I met in Japan, I came back to the UK after a year and she stayed until she could join me due to some incredibly restrictive Visa requirements.) I can assure you that trust is the most important aspect without complete trust in your other half everything WILL go south at some point or another. However, its also worth mentioning that if you're going to embark on one, there is an uncomfortable truths that you'll have to confront. Apologies if this gets a little blunt, but having been there I'd rather not sugar coat it. Your relationship will probably not work. This is the most important thing to bear in mind. The majority of Long Distance Relationships, (particularly those that last over a year) don't work out. Mine did, but the odds stacked against it were incredibly high and I'm incredibly lucky. It'll depend largely on the personalities involved and how secure you feel about yourself as well. If you're the type of person who is easilly made jealous, envious or easily suspicious a LDR may not be the thing for you. By all means try your best to keep things going, but understand that it can fail and often for really trivial reasons. There can be no secrets. At All. Also another important thing that everyone forgets, as you're both international, find out the Visa requirements for both Canada and the UK. Find the ones you'll be eligable for and the requirements for each. (From personal experience the UK ones are incredibly difficult.) To bring my wife over on a UK Fiancee visa I got a number of IT qualifications, got an IT job, moved to London and then moved outside London. All to satisfy the income and housing requirements of the Visa. If you or your partner are unwilling to fufil the visa requirements you're going to have to cut the whole thing off in order to keep your sanity. Finally, and this is the most important one, make sure you're mentally prepared for it. Because communication is usually sparse you feelings will be affected far more often, and much more intensely that in a regular relationship. If your partner is angry at you and will be unable to talk to you for two days will you be OK with that? Or will you spend those two days constantly stressed and worried? Unlike almost any other relationship "talking it out" will become much more difficult and you will find that small issues may become much larger ones purely because you can't just talk to each other. If there is the smallest of silver linings, if it does all work out, your relationship will potentially be stronger as a result. But the odds are not in your favour. However, knowing that should take some of the pressure off. (Also, Skype sex, while not as fun as regular sex should be attempted. Its the closest you'll get to some form of intimacy outside of you visiting each other. So take advantage of it. Or, if you feel you can, do the open relationship thing, but that will require much more trust and the ability not to ask questions.)
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Nov 17, 2016 17:48
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Why not just be friends with benefits? As already stated, set a timeline for when it can actually become an in-person relationship, continue to talk to each other, and if you are both single when the time runs out - go from there. I think this strategy is better because you don't have to worry about burning bridges or getting in arguments that you can't do anything about. Then when the time comes, if it was meant to be, it will be. Of course - you can still set ground rules with each other (I.E. no discussion about the local people you are dating).
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Nov 17, 2016 21:43
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SuperiorColliculus posted:A) have an endgame. This is critical. Have a timeframe/exit plan on the distance closing. I married a girl from Siberia and I gotta say that this is the best advice you're going to get, OP. Mind you, a plan doesn't need to involve you two getting married (hell we didn't plan on it initially, it just turned out massively easier), just have an idea of where you want the relationship to be x years down the line. Now, for the technical bit re: watching things together. 1) Consider watching things that are synced up already (livestreams?) 2) If your computer is crap and you're spending that much on plane tickets, consider saving up some cash for a better machine. Hardware is cheap these days. 3) https://synchtu.be/ 4) Private twitch stream? Most screen sharing applications are going to be out. Basically, figure out the video watching part, and the videochat part. Also good headphones are a must, because watching things and hearing what the other person is hearing on a delay is a bit annoying. Honestly, when I did this with my now-wife, we found that the best thing to do (for us at least) was to simulwatch things on our own time, and then discuss afterwards. Sure, this lacked immediacy, but made for some pretty cool conversation that I don't think we would have had if we had just been reacting together. But, we'll be the first to admit that we're weird goony shutins in our private lives, so this may not work for you. Alternatively, just link each other what we want to watch then hit play at roughly the same time. Not quite realtime, but solves a lot of technical headaches, and makes things less complicated. OWLS! fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Nov 18, 2016 |
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Nov 18, 2016 03:57
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I live in Europe and have a girlfriend in Philippines, so quite far away to say the least. I met her over there by random, then I went home as planned shortly after, and we stayed in touch online. I think the "have an exit strategy" is some of the best advice I've seen, otherwise who knows where it'll end. If both of you want to stay forever in their own country, I don't see how it'll end up amounting to anything. The exit strategy for us is clear, and we have talked about it frankly: She will come marry and live with me (if I want of course, no promises). Start discussing the topic ASAP, even if you're afraid it might break the relationship. I'm fine without day-to-day interaction really. We chat on Facebook daily about this and that. I'm not a big fan of video chat, particularly since the internet is crap where she lives, so the sound and video quality is terrible, and the video is out of sync with the audio. I go to Asia for 2 weeks once a year (in the terrible cold winter), and she comes to me for a few months on a a Schengen (EU) visa in the warm European summer. Particularly the months staying at me is a good "test" of the relationship, since it involves the drudgery of every day life, such as me going to work, cleaning, shopping groceries, cooking, etc. It's very easy to get blinded while you're on a vacation, since it's all fun and games for the short while it lasts. People who meet a girl abroad once, then next marry her and have her stay permanently in their home shortly after, are nuts. It's not that hard to get a tourist visa to Europe at least, unless the country your partner is in is on the poo poo list. You can also meet eachother in another place than where you both live and enjoy a vacation together there, that's what I'm doing on my next Asia trip. If you want to invest in and expand the "digital relationship" with simultaneous video watching and Skype, stop making excuses about how your laptop is old and slow, and just buy a new computer, preferably a stationary computer, and with a separate, high-quality webcam. Good luck!
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Nov 18, 2016 12:54
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I recently finished two and a half years apart from my then girlfriend, now wife. There's a lot of good advice already in this thread, but I would add that you absolutely have to make sure that you have good friends and a good social life of your own. Having your own solid support group will help you be a better partner to her, and give you someone to talk to when things get tough. You might also see if you can take a semester abroad at a University near where she lives (I assume that you are studying right now given the comment about being in classes 2/3 of the year).
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Nov 21, 2016 04:32
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Your undergraduate years of college are basically the worst possible time to be in an LDR. You end up always taking a pass on other social activities and romantic opportunities to "hang out" with your SO. My recommendation is to put the relationship on hold until you graduate. I'm not saying don't talk to each other at all, just don't be exclusive, and don't do, like, scheduled calls or anything. Pretty much everyone I've ever known who has done an LDR during that time of their life has ended up regretting the opportunities it cost them.
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Nov 22, 2016 01:58
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Obviously nobody in their right mind thinks that someone in her early 20s should be making plans after three months of "dating" for her overseas internet girlfriend whom she met writing fanfiction to move to another country to be with her, but assuming that we're going to proceed from there... Canada's working holiday visa program is really excellent and it's incredibly easy to get a working holiday visa to the UK. My cousin did this last year, and I lived in the Netherlands for a year on a working holiday visa about ten years ago. It's not particularly expensive or complicated to do, and you can spend some time with your girlfriend while you have a summer job in the UK. I'm also not sure why regular visits aren't feasible while you're studying. You have like twice the free time in university as you do when you're working, and that's while school is in session. She could visit you and hang out with you when you're not in class, or you could visit her on one of the many extended breaks university students have. It's expensive to do, but there are lots of workarounds, like take a $60 bus trip from Vancouver (where I assume you are, since flights from Calgary or Edmonton are like $700) to Seattle and then get a $600 round-trip flight instead of paying $1200 round-trip. Most people don't stay with the person they were dating in their early 20s, and you have to know that everything else about your relationship makes it less likely, not more likely, that you'll succeed. But if you're really committed to making it work, you have to spend a lot more time together in person, and ideally that should happen before one of you uproots her life and moves permanently to a foreign country in several years.
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Nov 22, 2016 02:56
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Dogfish posted:Obviously nobody in their right mind thinks that someone in her early 20s should be making plans after three months of "dating" for her overseas internet girlfriend whom she met writing fanfiction to move to another country to be with her. This. Seriously, is nobody going to flat out say what a god drat awful idea this is?
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Nov 22, 2016 21:44
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She didn't ask if she should get into this relationship, she asked how to improve her chances of succeeding. I mean, of course I think this is a recipe for disaster but I also think the worst-case scenario is that she's sad because of it, so I don't feel a particularly strong obligation to talk her out of it. Part of your early 20s is learning to evaluate what is and isn't a good idea, and one of the ways you do that is by doing stuff that's a bad idea. I put that sentence in at the beginning so she can contextualize the advice I gave.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:07
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I get what you're saying, but its a fair call to say "This is a terrible idea, that will be very disruptive and the odds are really against you" when somebody asks how to improve their chances. But I guess if you go in with your eyes wide open it might be worth a go.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:21
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504 posted:Seriously, is nobody going to flat out say what a god drat awful idea this is? Several people already did, and this has been implied in nearly every post beyond that.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:22
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504 posted:This. It's fairly unlikely that anybody will be able to convince the OP that this is a bad idea. Plenty of people (including here) go through this knowing what a terrible idea it is, and plenty of people do it anyways. Sometimes people have to make their own mistakes.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:40
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Dogfish posted:but I also think the worst-case scenario is that she's sad because of it I concur, it's a terrible idea. And I've been in long-distance relationships.
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Nov 23, 2016 01:59
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I guess my view is that you can't actually lose time out of your life. You can let time go by and not take full advantage of its opportunities, and you can regret that, but you still live that time. If in five years OP regrets spending time waiting for her internet girlfriend instead of going to karaoke or joining the volleyball team or attending meetings of the physics club or having casual sex at house parties or whatever, well, she'll be sad about it, and those opportunities will be gone, and she'll have learned something about herself and hopefully that will help her inform how she organizes her life in the future. Still sounds like the worst-case scenario is "feeling sad about stuff" to me. Or who knows, maybe she'll enjoy missing out on a bunch of stuff because it allows her to imagine herself as a self-sacrificing Victorian heroine in an epistolary novel and she'd enjoy that much more than playing Ultimate Frisbee. People are weird.
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Nov 23, 2016 02:27
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You can never convince anyone to not try the LDR they have their heart set on anyways because each one of them is sure that its going to be different for them.
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Nov 23, 2016 14:28
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My (so far successful) LDR started out as a long-distance booty call. We then were able to work out a way to spend one week on/one week off with each other for most of the next year, before moving to the same city as one another but still living seperately, seeing each other at the weekend. After that we moved in together, and are six years into a happy relationship. I think this worked for a few reasons, though - we'd known each other for years before getting together, so we had a good idea of how the other person was about 'just life stuff,' so there weren't any real surprises there. Then the fact that we saw each other for as long as possible and as often as possible meant that was translated into real life 'just life stuff' situations. The year we spent living apart but seeing one another at weekends meant we had space to figure out how being closer was going for us, which provided a good foundation for us eventually living together - which had always been the end goal. I think taking it in stages was a very good thing though, rather than jumping from LDR to cohabiting. So these things can work. But you need to plan, as others have noted, and you need to maximise time spent face-to-face. It just isn't the same over the internet, no matter how many video calls you make. You need time to see real-life foibles, and deal with real life stuff together in person, otherwise it will be a shock to suddenly have this person around you all the time.
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Nov 26, 2016 17:06
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I know you've said you don't like Skype. But in mine we constantly Skype's while watching Netflix. Truth be told about the long distance thing: it makes everything so hard. Mine didn't survive. But, as we grew older and more self sufficient we got back together and are now engaged. The difference this time? We live in the same city. I wish you the best of luck.
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Jan 7, 2017 16:48
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When you decide to enter into a LDR make sure that you have already been together in the same place is longer than the time you are going to be apart. If you don't do that, it will be terrible and fail miserably. That is the bare minimum for a successful LDR and you haven't even met that threshold. 
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Jan 12, 2017 05:23
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Two months without an update, were probably done here. 
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Jan 12, 2017 11:41
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theflyingexecutive posted:Two months without an update, were probably done here. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3802581&pagenumber=11&perpage=40#post467658294 vivisecting posted:Dec 23, 2016 15:25 Unless they already moved in together, of course...
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Jan 12, 2017 14:55
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSckuNlzQdM
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Jan 12, 2017 15:04
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Long-distance relationships are perfectly fine and can last for over a decade with no endgame and everyone being happy and having tons of sex every time they get back together! All you need to achieve this is for both of you to be financially stable enough that you can each spend months at a time visiting the other's location without risking losing your job or your home. Which, well, obvious problem there.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:23
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Shbobdb posted:When you decide to enter into a LDR make sure that you have already been together in the same place is longer than the time you are going to be apart. If you don't do that, it will be terrible and fail miserably. this guy is correct. Except your not factoring in every angle.... desperation, and loneliness. Once upon a time on a website called Tinychat.com I witnessed the most hopeless virgins band together to achieve mutual friendships, relationships, cliques, everything. It can be done, but it takes a special kind of weirdo to be able to pull it off successfully. One must have completely given up on ever forming a bond in the real world, and, like a Caterpillar, metamorphosis into a beautiful, strange, skype-addicted, video game loving, internet dater. I've seen it 1000 times. It works. As long as both parties can maintain an adequate level of shut-in-ism. Problems arise, of course. You think normal relationships are hard? Pssssssht. That's little league compared to the challenges of Internet Dating. Most internet daters have severe issues, and are running from themselves. All the normal problems in relationships (power struggles, sexual frustrations, clinginess, boundary issues) are amplified 10 fold when you gently caress around with internet dating. Its much easier to hide when you're behind a keyboard, and only show the parts of yourself you want to be seen. Which is the appeal for these people, I imagine. But over time the truth always comes out. And poo poo comes crashing down. Out of hundreds I've personally witnessed, I only know of one successful relationship that started in this way, and ended up with a happy ending. A handsome, funny, and smart euro man and a No-loving-joke Cambodian Princess (with an aussie accent) started doing the online thing, and it went on for ~1 year before the dude went over to aussieland and knocked her up. They're in love. Last I talked to them he was living with her and her parents and struggling to get Aussie citizenship (and a job). But the baby is healthy, and they're about as happy as any young couple can be, under those circumstances. The difference between those 2 and the rest? They made long distance into a real relationship. Thats what it takes for it go on on forever. It is the only way. You have to grow some balls, and make the loving jump. If she doesn't want you to come live with her? you're doomed. It means she doesn't see you as a forever, it means she isn't in love. It means you're just a crutch for loneliness. I'm truly sorry if that's the case, OP. I believe I can accurately predict how long one of these relationships can last just by seeing a picture of the two parties. so OP, how hot is she? no need to be shy. If shes at least moderately cute and normal, you're hosed. Eventually some "real" person in her biomedical engineering III class will notice her, and then she'll kick you to the curb and try to pretend you never even existed, because online relationships are weird, and embarrassing. Or maybe she'll just get bored of you're same lame-rear end jokes that you say over, and over, and over. Loneliness blinds us and helps us to put up with that poo poo, but not forever. if shes mentally challenged, paraplegic, or really loving ugly, you may stand a chance. But still no guarantees. Are you willing to share more about yourselves OP? or have you abandoned this thread altogether because its not what you want to hear? Denial is a bitch. But I'm here to tell you, anything is loving possible. And I'm willing to help. As a self-proclaimed expert on these matters, I want your relationship to succeed, even if I sound like a total rear end in a top hat, which, I am, but I still want to help you, Because I take pity on you. If you don't want to post in this thread anymore, I understand. I can also be reached through PM's. Good luck OP, I truly do wish you happiness in this life. PS: OP, do you know anything about "Art"? Maybe..... If I scratch your back, you can scratch mine? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3805526 TIA E; I just read that you two were lesbians, that's a curve ball, but I still stand by everything in my post. I LIKE COOKIE fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 07:07
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