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TheRat posted:Brunost is loving amazing and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. Come to Lyngen in 15 minutes if u want an rear end kicking.
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Dec 1, 2016 18:55
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Which Lyngen tho
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Dec 1, 2016 19:02
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Darth Walrus posted:Oh, hey, Boris has been caught saying nice things about freedom of movement to EU ambassadors. See Boris, if you're going to be a gimmick poster, you have to keep it up in every subforum, otherwise someone will browse your post history and catch you out.
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Dec 1, 2016 19:03
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I can't get enough of are Dan 
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Guavanaut posted:Let's play Finish the Headline: The headline is complete, he's doing it for his grandmother
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Dec 1, 2016 19:56
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For my granola bar.
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Dec 1, 2016 19:59
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tony blair is definitely anti-populist. He's the least populist option. Absolutely nobody would accuse him of being populist. Or popular.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:00
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XMNN posted:remember when everyone thought Teresa may had put a bunch of morons in charge of foreign affairs to sabotage brexit but then it turned out she was still going to do brexit its just she is also a loving moron She also supports some pretty abhorrent and nasty policies - this leaked today May drew up plans for children of illegal immigrants to go to the back of the queue for school places quote:Her department suggested schools could withdraw places offered to children if their families were found to be living in the country illegally. It turns out it was Nicky Morgan who had a conscience and basic sense of decency all along. I knew about the repressed reports in rape statistics, and I chose to not affect my opinions (I know it was wrong, but I was putting it down as nobody being perfect), but this is a turning point for me - to deny children education based on their parentage? Vile. I don't think I can vote for my local Tory MP whilst she is PM. The sheen has come off her recently - she's as bloody useless as Corbyn at media strategy, she's not great at diplomacy (pointless review of Hinckley Point), she tries to bypass parliament and she thinks it's acceptable to deny children a fundamental human right. I'm annoyed and ashamed of myself. Well at least it makes deciding in the next GE who to vote for a bit easier. It's a shame Labour aren't making more of this. I hope Corbyn brings it up next PMQs - I don't think it got long enough attention today.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:00
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Milotic posted:I knew about the repressed reports in rape statistics, and I chose to not affect my opinions (I know it was wrong, but I was putting it down as nobody being perfect), but this is a turning point for me - to deny children education based on their parentage? Vile. She did a vast amount more evil poo poo than that as home secretary, worse than this.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:02
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eg. Carting off students (including students with families) who were legally allowed to be here because they took a test the government told them to eg. Sending LBGT refugees back to countries that are known to lynch LBGT people, with their name and that they're claiming they're LBGT a matter of public record. Don't even bother to care that most of them "disappear" almost immediately. eg. Banning a UN human rights envoy from getting access to, and therefore investigating allegations of sexual assaults at, Yarl's Wood and awarding the company responsible for the centre a massive new contract when the old one expired
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Dec 1, 2016 20:07
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Milotic posted:The sheen has come off her recently - she's as bloody useless as Corbyn at media strategy, she's not great at diplomacy (pointless review of Hinckley Point), she tries to bypass parliament and she thinks it's acceptable to deny children a fundamental human right. not to rub the point but there's no such thing as an informed and conscientious tory. If you have a sense of morality and are well informed, it is not possible to be a conservative MP.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:08
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MrL_JaKiri posted:She did a vast amount more evil poo poo than that as home secretary, worse than this. I'm interested in the specific ones you think are worse than this - I've quickly gone through her Wikipedia article (my memory isn't great) and whilst some of the stuff she's done to individuals is bad, and removal of certain protections, I didn't come across anything like systematically denying children a fundamental human right because of something their parents did. It's also possibly that education is a bit of a needle mover for me, so I'd appreciate your viewpoint.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:12
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Milotic posted:Edit posted before I saw your second one refusing legitimate claims to asylum is a life or death matter. Also, wasn't the UN report into the UK housing crises under her watch? The one the UK replied to with "lol u cheeky fukken brazillian" I mean.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:17
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 FARAGE *click*
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Dec 1, 2016 20:19
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Nonsense posted:
Wait why is Liz in there Also usual thing, edit the stick to say MANGA
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Dec 1, 2016 20:20
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Milotic posted:Edit posted before I saw your second one It's interesting that removing someone's right to a quality education is the straw that broke the camel's back for you and not the covering up of systematic sexual abuse in immigration detention centres employing some spurious rationale that the negative publicity could harm the contractor's bottom line. I mean both are bad, absolutely, but if I had to make a choice between being raped without any kind of legal recourse, and not getting an education I know what I'd choose. I'd kill myself.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:21
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Spangly A posted:not to rub the point but there's no such thing as an informed and conscientious tory. If you have a sense of morality and are well informed, it is not possible to be a conservative MP. I personally don't think that's fair - it depends on how you view the centre ground - there's a lot of intersection between New Labour and the left of the Tory party. Nor are people homogenous. I would point to Macmillan as being a good PM. I know, I know, I'm centre ground scum etc. Liberal. Swing voter. I'm to the right for this thread.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:22
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TomViolence posted:It's interesting that removing someone's right to a quality education is the straw that broke the camel's back for you and not the covering up of systematic sexual abuse in immigration detention centres employing some spurious rationale that the negative publicity could harm the contractor's bottom line. I mean both are bad, absolutely, but if I had to make a choice between being raped without any kind of legal recourse, and not getting an education I know what I'd choose. If we're going for third options, surely you should kill the rapist (and get away with it), not yourself.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:23
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Nonsense posted:
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Dec 1, 2016 20:24
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dex_sda posted:If we're going for third options, surely you should kill the rapist (and get away with it), not yourself. C'mon we both know hope is a lie, even in hypothetical scenarios.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:25
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TomViolence posted:C'mon we both know hope is a lie, even in hypothetical scenarios. You're right, I have made the gravest mistake: hope.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:26
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Milotic posted:I personally don't think that's fair - it depends on how you view the centre ground - there's a lot of intersection between New Labour and the left of the Tory party. Nor are people homogenous. I would point to Macmillan as being a good PM. I view all concepts of centre ground as worthless because the evidence shows that centrist/non interventionist policy has absolutely no benefits and massive drawbacks. We're all products of our environment and if I blamed everyone for that I'd be doing people a disservice but there's no such thing as a "good" centre or right wing policy. The existence of prisons is a demonstrable detriment to all members of the society they inhabit. The existence of non-regulated environments has never achieved anything but to make life worse for others.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:28
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Spangly A posted:The existence of prisons is a demonstrable detriment to all members of the society they inhabit. The existence of non-regulated environments has never achieved anything but to make life worse for others. In your ideal society, what would you do with people who are sound of mind but pose a very probable danger to society based on past behaviour?
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Dec 1, 2016 20:36
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I think the top priority would be to not vote for them.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:41
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Milotic posted:In your ideal society, what would you do with people who are sound of mind but pose a very probable danger to society based on past behaviour? rehabilitation that doesn't involve iron bars. Norway has a great thing going where murderers build huts and learn to do engineering products on an island. That, but larger scale. Also, this misses the point. The idea is to reduce crime, not punish it. These people don't exist in my ideal society, because their needs are met and they have a sense of dignity and purpose. That leaves only those of unsound mind, who can also be rehabilitated, but coming from a very different perspective. This pretty much leaves out genuine sociopaths and I'm not sure I really have a problem with the current system of "Keep them in hospital until we have a clue how to treat this". Again, in the ideal society, we can treat this so it's not a problem. The goal right now is to work towards creating that society while weaning ourselves from the dangerous idea that you can somehow scare people away from crime. Regardless of whether they are a product of their environment, a criminal through either need or emotional problems, or if they're simply morally depraved like a banker, there has never been any evidence suggesting deterrence works.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:44
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Hell, in a punitive and profit-driven prison system like ours all you end up doing is churning out career criminals. People who come out of jail with a crack and/or heroin habit, new mental problems and abysmal employment prospects. Not only does deterrence not work, it actively stokes the factors that lead to crime in the first place. And thanks to the perverse incentives the profit motive introduces there is no reason for the prison industry to reverse or mitigate that course.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:48
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TomViolence posted:Hell, in a punitive and profit-driven prison system like ours all you end up doing is churning out career criminals. People who come out of jail with a crack and/or heroin habit, new mental problems and abysmal employment prospects. Not only does deterrence not work, it actively stokes the factors that lead to crime in the first place. And thanks to the perverse incentives the profit motive introduces there is no reason for the prison industry to reverse or mitigate that course. Yeah I don't think we need to discuss ideal societies, we've got enough evidence that what's happening with Serco prisons and the general state of the current ones that we are seriously loving people's lives up. I've talked about this before and a few thread readers have contacted me asking me if I had personal experience, especially when Spice came up. I've got some through the family and if anyone cared it's probably easy to see the posting gaps in my history and have a guess why there are extended periods where I don't post. Much as I have my own prejudices against the prison system, absolutely nobody I've spoken to in said system has been anything but absolutely pissed at the shambles the home office has been creating. Recently a friend of mine applied to be a rehabilitation officer in Rochester and was told by his prospective employer in no uncertain terms that he did not want the job because there is no hope in the system right now. It's probably one of the most immediately pressing issues in Britain today. I've seen people go inside for a bit of weed and come out thinking they're the big man slinging charlie. People in their twenties should not be abandoning all prospects of a civil life outside in favour of crime, but that is what is happening.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:56
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I think retribution is a valid reason for incarceration.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:57
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Pissflaps posted:I think retribution is a valid reason for incarceration. 
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Dec 1, 2016 20:59
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Pissflaps posted:I think retribution is a valid reason for incarceration. You're wrong.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:02
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Pissflaps posted:I think retribution is a valid reason for incarceration. Nah.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:05
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Pissflaps posted:I think retribution is a valid reason for incarceration. There is strong evidence punitive systems do not improve quality of life for wider society
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Dec 1, 2016 21:05
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Maybe turning the other cheek would be the Christian thing to do but if one of my loved ones was murdered I'd rather the perpetrator spent a considerable amount of their life without their liberty in austere surroundings than on a shed building residential.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:06
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I mean mostly I disagree that if retribution is what you want then prison is a very inefficient method of achieving it.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:07
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OwlFancier posted:I mean mostly I disagree that if retribution is what you want then prison is a very inefficient method of achieving it. I don't consider efficiency to be an important consideration when meting out justice.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:08
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Pissflaps posted:Maybe turning the other cheek would be the Christian thing to do but if one of my loved ones was murdered I'd rather the perpetrator spent a considerable amount of their life without their liberty in austere surroundings than on a shed building residential. People touched by tragedy want blood. That doesn't mean blood should be given. Any punitive system that assumes retribution as a goal by necessity will have to put people in terrible conditions, which are actively harmful to rehabilitation. This in turn facilitates recidivism, further crime, and as such, further damage to society - and that's ignoring the loss of contribution from the perpetrator themselves.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:08
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Nonsense posted:
lol I bet the first draft had a star of david instead of a pentagram
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Dec 1, 2016 21:09
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quote:The UK would consider making payments to the EU after it leaves the bloc to secure the best possible access to the EU single market, Brexit Secretary David Davis has said. About that £350 million a week for the NHS, well it turns out... Carecat fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 21:09
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dex_sda posted:People touched by tragedy want blood. That doesn't mean blood should be given. I don't think blood should be given either but the loss of freedom? Sure. I want to see prison conditions improve, and I want to see those prisons used for those whose actions have earned them a stay. The loss of contribution can be compensated for by immigration.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:10
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think blood should be given either but the loss of freedom? Sure. This is anathema to the goal of retribution, though. Loss of freedom is a punishment. If we end our retributive ambitions there and make the stay productive for the inmate, we can benefit society. This isn't a pipe dream, either. Scandinavian justice systems work, and I remember reading about studies saying the families of victims are more satisfied by the justice system's actions there. Unless you're implying we should lock up every criminal forever, you have to consider that they need to be rehabilitated so recidivism is lowered. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 21:13
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Pissflaps posted:I don't consider efficiency to be an important consideration when meting out justice. the right to efficient justice was enshrined in magna carta m8
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Dec 1, 2016 21:13
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