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stoko posted:I'd be down. If anyone else is interested, but doesn't have the game yet, Humble Bundle has it for 50% off through tomorrow night. If you're willing to work to convert it, it is likely to remain +EV. It seems unlikely they'll print more Awakenings before SoR, which means that just keeping trade stock should be very valuable, especially if they do print enough SoR - the new cards will be deflated compared to Awakenings.
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Jan 25, 2017 00:30
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fozzy fosbourne posted:I wonder if they won't have a more concrete date on Awakenings further availability until everyone is back from Chinese New Year in a month. They do claim they try to use factories with at least somewhat humane conditions, so maybe people have a vacation. I'd suspect it's more a matter of how production line setup works, though. The sorting for matching dice with cards can't be trivial, so you probably have a much more limited selection of factories than you do for card-only games, and print runs need a while to get set up. I suspect it's just an issue of finding somewhere that can fit a large job like that into the schedule. Especially since the game's success means it needs to be a larger one than they've previously done.
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Jan 25, 2017 03:02
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fozzy fosbourne posted:I think Chinese New Year is pretty universal for manufacturing. Fair enough, I haven't encountered that but also wasn't the primary contact with factories back when I was in game publishing, so could just be I never heard it. In any case I think there can't be many factories that can do those dice and match them correctly with the cards, so it's probably a combination of factors, as ShowTime said.
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Jan 25, 2017 03:40
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ShowTime posted:I think Sith Holocron might be the first card to be errated, but I think it's just going to be slightly changed and will still be good. I think it's going to no longer ignore play restrictions. They may also give it a resource cost of 1. But I think even with those changes it's still very powerful. I'd be surprised if it were changed before Hyperspace Jump or Falcon, though it might be simultaneous. And of course I am sometimes surprised.
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Jan 26, 2017 04:06
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guts and bolts posted:Here's a tier list I was linked to by some CCGs nerds in a Skype group I'm in. I don't have the expertise to weigh in on how valid it is or isn't, and can only speak anecdotally, but it feels like eLuke/Ackbar and eJabba/Vader decks are being massively undervalued, while the mono-blue Villain shell and mono-blue Hero shells are being pretty obviously overvalued. It also seems weird to suggest a deck that will be banned or errata'd out of existence is somehow not as strong as other decks? Or maybe I'm interpreting how they parse a "tier" wrong, I dunno. Any tier list is going to be suspect at this point, so I don't disagree with your larger points. It also seems weird to me that mono-blue should actually be better than other stuff - you lose out on a lot of good support cards. eJango/eVeers is clearly very good. Based on what I've seen you could call it tier 1 by itself, and I wonder if they're subconsciously trying to make the game look less skewed than it currently is. Not that I necessarily think it will continue to be, which ties in to the issue with a tier report: we've had basically no high-profile events. Until the first round of regionals or store champs (can't remember which comes first), I don't think we'll be able to say much about a non-local meta other than "everyone knows that Jango/Veers is good" and "probably someone in the event will be That Guy and run Hyperloop". On the specific case of the Hyperloop though, I think the position isn't incoherent. I haven't tested it extensively, but it seems like that combo is usually going to be useless to awful against Jango/Veers because you have to be ahead in damage dealt and if you're ahead against Jango/Veers by the time you can get it online, you can also probably just kill Jango and likely win. Not 100% of course, but I have trouble imagining its a favorable matchup. It also is the kind of thing that, if your opponent knows to put outs in their deck, they can play them, because they can cycle cards and accumulate resources each time you loop. So it won't usually beat people who know about it. But what that really means is that it will just create awful feel-bads for players who haven't heard about it. And it's almost certainly an unintended interaction - it doesn't even really resolve in the absence of the tournament rules, by the rulebook the game just continues until someone scoops. Work or not, it's a specific interaction that bypasses the game rather than interacting with or enhancing it. It's generally a good idea to fix things like that, because even if they don't dominate tournaments, they hurt attendance pretty demonstrably. "Dominates competitive play" is an important metric, but I've known games with relatively large metas and reasonable rules where the specific decks were just not fun to play, and that's an important failure too.
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Jan 26, 2017 06:39
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BJPaskoff posted:I really hope they don't do any power level errata. Ban cards if needed, but telling players "You can't play with this card" is a lot better than telling them "This card you opened does something different than what it says it does". The latter makes them have to memorize a completely different card. The Hyperspace Loop can be fixed with a minor rules change, i.e. if you play an event card from your discard, it gets removed from the game... but even that's not a super clean solution. I generally agree with this argument, but Falcon is almost certainly going to eat a ban eventually if they don't errata it, and it's a high-profile flavor card and a legendary. They could solve the Hyperloop combo by banning Hyperspace Jump, but Falcon seriously limits the design space for future yellow events and making it not banish was IMO a big mistake. It's also possible you could just ban the battlefield (Throne Room?), but there's a risk that wouldn't really do it and bannings that side-attack a combo like that are things you want to be really sure will actually solve the problem or else you just look dumb. It's also possible that just making their tournaments allow draws, or changing the tiebreaker, would make it not worth running. You could also try to do some sort of shenanigans with the tournament rules, like defining a loop rule that would just cause you to shortcut through the thing, but it's pretty hard to figure out how you stop the loop from just happening again pretty soon. Unless you say that after you resolve it however many times you banish everything involved to think about what it's done. At that point, though, you might as well just have a list of banned combos.
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Jan 26, 2017 06:46
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BJPaskoff posted:Banning Throne Room might stop the combo, but like you said, doesn't stop Falcon from breaking future event cards. I still say the cleanest way is to banish events if they're played from the discard pile. I'm not convinced banishing event cards when they're played from discard piles would be functionally different than issuing errata. It does let you say you haven't issued errata, but it still isn't indicated anywhere on the card or in the current version of the learn-to-play rules, so most players still have to basically look online to figure out what's going on with it. And it's an obscure enough rule that you'd need to reminder text it on later cards too. I could see them doing it, but it feels like following the letter of the "don't errata in CCGs" rule of thumb while still creating a similar problem.
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Jan 26, 2017 07:57
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Bottom Liner posted:Yeeeeah, I can't believe they didn't have the foresight to make Falcon effect exile afterwards. That's some amateur hour design. They'd probably have taken months to sell this much on the LCG model, if not years. The big test is the next few months, if there's enough of set 2 and they are able to announce a concrete Awakenings restock, they'll recover. If either of those go wrong, it'll be hard.
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Jan 26, 2017 08:14
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. Should have stuck to the LCG model.
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EnjoiThePureTrip posted:What's the Hyperloop combo? Emperor's Throne Room as your battlefield. Get Millennium Falcon in play. Get a Hyperspace Jump in your discard pile. Once you've rolled the Falcon die, if it isn't removed, you can claim and immediately end the action phase whenever you like. You get first action next turn, since you control the battlefield. You use it to activate Falcon. Now your opponent has one action to remove the Falcon die, or you can end the action phase over and over again and just prevent anything from happening. (If you can get extra actions with Rey, you can do something first and/or not give your opponent the opportunity to have any actions first, though I can't think of a way to do this forever.) Even if they can remove the Falcon die, if you've got a Cunning out, you can just activate that character on the next activation and set up the same thing. Losing the battlefield selection roll doesn't stop you, since Hyperspace Jump swaps the battlefield. (In fact, you might even want to choose your opponent's if you win for free shields.) In a tournament, this is a win if you're ahead on damage dealt, because you can time out the round and that's the first tiebreaker. In casual play it's not really clear what happens. Of course, there are certainly ways around this. One reason it isn't dominating is that it's reasonably bad against most current decks, because they usually deal truckloads of damage quickly. You can certainly do some damage while still building up to play the Falcon, and it's theoretically possible to get it turn 1 with Poe (get one resource off another die or a Smuggling or whatever, discard Falcon to Poe's ability and resolve the 2 resource side, put it into play) but if you want to activate the Falcon after you need to roll Poe's special naturally rather than claim, and of course not playing any upgrades on turn 1 means you'll probably be behind on damage that turn to most of the burst decks. (Though, of course, having Falcon in play might well let you catch up by the time you get the Hyperloop going.) I'm also not convinced we've seen the best hyperloop decks crafted yet - the Poe/hired gun/hired gun list is fine, but I think it's possible Rey will end up being better than Poe, to let you take some real turns while looping. I wonder, for example, if a Rey/Han deck wouldn't be a reasonable place to try to use it. In any case, people are right it isn't currently dominating the meta. I made a post last night about why I think that's not particularly relevant to whether something should be fixed, but of course you're welcome to disagree. I do speak from some experience, though: I've played Magic forever, including "combo winter" and the Affinity and Caw-Blade eras, a bunch of other games where obscure interactions have been viewed as a sort of "rite of passage" for competitive play, and have been a tournament organizer or judge for lots of games for years. And pretty universally, such rites of passage deter people from playing competitively, both anecdotally and by attendance numbers.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:13
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guts and bolts posted:I considered this option when I built my eHan eRey deck but I'd have to playtest it a ton. I have the Falcons and I run Hyperspace Jump anyway; it's a really good card as is. I find myself usually just going second to get the free shields and jumping as the game progresses to get Starship Graveyard in play. For competitive play, I feel like Graveyard will probably win you fewer games than the loop if you're running both of the other components already, though that's just a gut feeling. In non-competitive play, of course, it doesn't resolve, but you can just swap out the Throne Room for the Graveyard again and be good to go.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:40
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guts and bolts posted:I haven't found room for the Falcons in the deck proper - not sure what to cut - but I'll give it a go. Oh, I misunderstood "I have Falcons". Yeah that's more complicated then, 5 drops are really hard to play, and moreso than I ever expect compared to things like OwtF or Diplomatic Immunity because you can't replace into them.
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Jan 27, 2017 08:14
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canyoneer posted:I opened up one of my boxes today. Will FFG not replace that Han die? Seems like it's pretty easy to verify it is their error.
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Jan 29, 2017 09:30
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guts and bolts posted:Pretty big tournament about to start wish me luck my dudes May the Force be with you, user guts and bolts. Managed to scrounge 5 packs at a games store yesterday when I was there for a Magic judge conference. Got a few medium rares I was missing but no legendaries. I've got pre-orders in for boxes from pretty much every games store within an hour, but the promised restock apparently either didn't appear or was tiny, sigh.
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Jan 29, 2017 21:14
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canyoneer posted:35 minutes for a game is already such a tight deadline if any player is taking a while to make decisions. Games will go to time unless you have explosive aggro. I gotta say, this hasn't been my experience of playing slower decks. The Padme control deck I was messing with for a while is really slow - it has to run out the opponent's deck to win in most cases, and my version had almost no acceleration. Even so I don't think I've played a game that took more than 35 minutes, even casual games where people were pretty new. It feels to me like what's going to cause Destiny games to stall out is the people who just need to take ages making any decision at all, since there are so many opportunities to take actions. And judging is the antidote to that - people who do that will time out 35 minute rounds with a variety of decks, not just the slow ones.
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Feb 2, 2017 03:26
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ShowTime posted:That is a reason i'd never deal with Facebook trade groups. Ebay at least has anonymity. People love to comment on stuff like that and there is none of that on Ebay. I'm probably going to get rid of a bunch of my stuff and keep 1 deck. I'm not sure what is going to happen with this game in the future. Will they reprint Awakenings? When? Will people still be playing when that happens? What is Spirit of Rebellion going to do to the game? Worlds is coming up and it looks like no one will be getting any Awakenings before then and SoR won't be out in time, assuming it does come out on the rumored release of 4/28. That was exactly what Magic was like for the first year and change. I started playing right at the end of it, and I missed out on the super hard to get sets because I lived in a small town, so no one in the region even had product from the limited releases. But very early on "limited edition expansion set" really meant it (though not intentionally; like Destiny they just underestimated the demand). The first version of the base set and the first three expansion sets were basically impossible to get even on release, and the fourth not a ton better, to the extent that when I started playing, even bad uncommons from prior sets were nearly priceless in trade, and most people didn't have playsets of them. It didn't kill the game, obviously, but I do think a lot of that was that it was so new to everyone, and there was nothing like a serious tournament scene in the way there is now. And there certainly weren't meaningfully competing games that lacked those issues. I won a tournament at the local college with a just awful deck because no one else had much of anything either, and no one thought this was unreasonable, since there wasn't a cultural expectation that deckbuilding wouldn't be constrained by your individual collection. Destiny will be in trouble if their supply issues last a year, I think.
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Feb 18, 2017 08:15
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fozzy fosbourne posted:I wonder how the total print runs of SoR and Awakenings will compare. I'm still assuming there will be a big reprint to meet demand (because FFG probably wants to get in on some of this profit, too) but maybe it will continue along the early magic analogy and there just will be some set eventually that is not as scarce like The Dark was. I think that'd be flagrantly stupid in modern times, and I don't see any indication that they're planning it. If they do that, I'd expect a rapid adoption of a tournament standard that simply doesn't allow Awakenings cards (accompanied by an announcement of a future rotation schedule). I think that'd also be way less good than just printing more Awakenings, but if they simply can't fit more into the production schedule, it'd be a solution. But I don't expect them to power creep significantly enough that the top Awakenings cards stop being critical to decks, so the growth of tournaments will absolutely be stunted if they let them go the way of early Magic sets without rotating them out quickly.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:45
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The point about "one print run" and their printing capabilities is spot on, but it seems weird to state it up front as a policy. If I were them I'd be looking to expand that capacity to meet demand. If the single run is bigger, it won't be a disaster in practical terms, but in the context of how supply has been so far, it's of course going to create just this kind of reaction. FFG continues to do weird stuff. I'd say that the policy was likely to sink the game in the long-term, but Yu-Gi-Oh has the same policy and just rampantly reprints rarity-shifted cards to get around it. I'm not sure why anyone plays Yu-Gi-Oh, but people do, so maybe it's a workable method.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:13
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Magic does multiple print runs for all sets now - they commit to product availability while the set is in Standard. (By which I mean, availability to retailers.) But of course, they also don't really have an expansion/base set distinction anymore, just smaller and larger sets. Not sure about other games, but with the exception of Yu-Gi-Oh it's not generally hard to get product of CCGs for a reasonable length of time.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:39
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BJPaskoff posted:It's kind of cool that the metagame is still evolving even with product shortages and stuff. Poe was mostly overlooked early on. Seems like Bala-Tik was, too. I'd like to claim I knew better, as the very first deck I made was eBala/Jango/Trooper, but that was mostly because I didn't have a second Jango die, and otherwise it had little in common with the current one, so not really. Also, even with the access issues, there's clearly a large enough group of players with everything to drive a real meta; if anything I'd say the lack of product slows the rate at which it's solved because people (including me) are less likely to brew if they can't reasonably get the cards to play their brews in real competition. I'd also be interested to know how many people who didn't finish in the top had lists that were at least in part determined by product access issues. And of course, it's very difficult to figure out how many people avoid tournaments entirely because of the lack of stuff.
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Mar 1, 2017 07:18
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Yeah, most companies that make starter decks make unique cards in them, unless they're so huge that they can afford to make a product that very few people are going to buy (Magic). The problem is that they should have just replaced the pack "rares" in the starters with duplicates of the fixed cards so no one had to buy two.
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Mar 3, 2017 01:00
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fozzy fosbourne posted:I've heard similar elsewhere about store owners not buying much product initially. I wonder why there was such caution given how insane business X-Wing does. Armada was/is slow. Imp rear end is fine but not amazing. I haven't done the math, but like 50% or less of FFG's LCGs do all that well, and the Star Wars one didn't. And CCGs are a big risk to stock in large numbers because a significant majority of them die quickly and leave you with a ton of dead inventory. I'm not at all surprised games stores by and large didn't want to (heh) roll the dice on Destiny.
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Mar 19, 2017 03:27
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ShowTime posted:Yea I've seen tons of packs going on ebay for 4-5x retail. I saw 12 with a few set of promos (3-4 of each) sell for $160 before I left for work this morning. Hopefully Asmodee/FFG crack down on this sort of thing, it's pretty poisonous.
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Apr 3, 2017 02:57
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BJPaskoff posted:They can't stop players from selling the packs they bought but didn't open, but they can impose sanctions on stores hoarding boxes to sell. It's not always obvious which is which, or at least not obvious enough to prove within reason. They have leverage in this case since my understanding is that they have to approve stores to run the pre-release events like this. Certainly they could set it up such that they have to, and the one I ran for Awakenings wasn't just "order it from the distributor", you had to apply. Not sure if they did that with SoR though. Also if you play in the Northeast we almost certainly have at least contacts in common. I was the Events Manager at Pandemonium in Boston until the start of this year (left to start my own store in Western MA, which is why I don't know about SoR sanctioning - store opens tomorrow so I missed it).
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Apr 5, 2017 05:39
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two_step posted:The starters should be available at just about every FLGS now for MSRP ($15). Boosters still aren't around, though that should (hopefully) change next month after the next set releases. They're on backorder again at FFG (the starters), sadly. Might be just temporary though.
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Apr 6, 2017 03:49
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Caedar posted:Whoa whoa whoa what store is this? I live in Northampton. Purple Dragon Games in Williamstown, so the Uttmost West. Opened actual yesterday.
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Apr 6, 2017 16:59
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BJPaskoff posted:I hope they just ban Hyperspace Jump already. There's cards in SoR that do a similar thing much more fairly. It's not unbeatable, but there's already the specter of the product shortage over the game's head, it doesn't need another thing to discourage players. On the one hand, I guess the deck not winning via "one weird trick" of the tournament rules is in an important sense an improvement. On the other, yes, this deck should not be a thing.
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Apr 6, 2017 19:59
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BJPaskoff posted:The bad thing is the deck still has the nuclear option, in a tournament setting at least, of running out the clock if its pilot feels they're in danger of losing and they haven't landed Planetary Uprising yet. Yeah, though presumably you can discard to dig to it pretty quickly in most cases. Though you might not be able to afford to use the action on it in a few, I guess.
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Apr 6, 2017 20:54
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Bottom Liner posted:I'm starting to have serious doubts about the design team behind this game (or cards, more specifically). With any new game of CCG complexity, it takes a while to figure out what's going to break it. Having the hyperloop in a single set is pretty depressing, especially since "repeatable recursion is dangerous" is a lesson one could have learned from basically any other game, but I don't think they've shown themselves to be worse than expected for first contact between large player base and small dev group, which is always fraught. I don't think they've done notably worse than the vastly more successful and likely better paid and larger Hearthstone team, for example. In terms of hyperloop getting a win condition, it's almost certainly the case that SoR was locked before Hyperloop became known, but it does surprise and disappoint me that they didn't announce any fix for hyperloop before giving it the win condition. Though if they do it like Magic and announce changes right when the set comes out, they still could. What remains to be seen is how they deal with it and if they learn good lessons going forward.
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Apr 7, 2017 17:38
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Chill la Chill posted:
So I'm sure nerds are blowing it out of proportion as they usually do, but there are lots of legit reasons that best practice for major competitive events is to publish deck lists. And it is the case that in most situations where people don't, they're catering to the self-interested desires of a very small number of players. If I were to write a set of tournament practices for any game with customization, I'd specify that all sanctioned events that weren't strictly local needed to publish deck lists after the event.
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Apr 13, 2017 05:26
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Someone got really butthurt that Aaron doesn't post lists from the Stele Open. It was specifically Destiny, but you can look at list juggler online and X-wing is also absent. There's a huge rant and it's ongoing on fb right now but the relevant bit is below:
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Merauder posted:100% agree with this. It's silly that they wouldn't do it. Not worth getting up in arms about, but when the only reason NOT to is to cater to the aforementioned desires of a small number of people compared to the good of sharing the knowledge, it gets a big ol' eye roll out of me. It's doubly silly because it creates this cliquey kind of feel that doesn't serve tournament organizers well in the medium to long term either. So it's really just shooting yourself in the foot because you don't want to tell a couple of people that playing your list in a public event means you've exposed it to the public.
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Apr 13, 2017 16:28
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Bottom Liner posted:Well yeah, no one preorders collectible game product before they even know if the game is good or not. That's pretty basic. They should have done a prerelease and released the starters a month before Awakenings and people would have been hyped for the game. No one can meaningfully adjust print runs a month out, so this wouldn't have given them a better idea of what demand was in time for them to do anything about it. The state of Destiny supply is super concerning and almost certainly hurting the game at this point, but one of the big problems with CCG printing is that it is a giant gamble. It's nearly impossible to print enough product if you do take off and people are buying 1d6 boxes each without risking outright death if it under-performs, if not for the company than certainly for the individual human giving the okay.
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Apr 18, 2017 01:10
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Benthalus posted:Anyone who continues to place orders with Miniatures Market after the fiasco from Awakenings deserves exactly what they get. While that may be true, if it turns out that everyone is getting their allocations cut by like 90%, that is going to be really bad.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:33
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Also errata to the Smuggler to prevent the infinite resources loop; you only get the resource once per round.
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May 2, 2017 01:00
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Benthalus posted:As opposed to say, Deflect or Reversal or High Ground or Shoot First or It's A Trap or Friendly Fire that might be in their hand that you DON'T know about. Maybe you should just never roll out your characters for fear of your dice being manipulated or used against you? I agree those are better design and Force Throw is a bit of a poor design, yes. That kind of gotcha is generally more fun for everyone if it's one-use based on hidden information rather than "sometimes you know you have chance X in Y to get punished horribly". It's hardly a make-or-break issue but I think it's a reasonable point.
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May 13, 2017 07:07
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heckyeahpathy posted:It might depend on where you live and who your FLGS has as a distributor. I split my time between a big city with 4-5 great games stores and a small college town with one pretty great store that is still a small town store. The guy at the small store was able to get 3 boxes of SoR to start and another 2 later (he sold me one), 1 of the Awakenings reprint, and doesn't know for sure how much more he'll be able to get. Meanwhile, in the big city, the stores are getting 20 boxes at a time. I am really wondering if you are one of my customers, since the small town store I own is in that same boat, heh. It's pretty frustrating.
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Jun 27, 2017 00:01
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I'd also rather they banned than errata'd. It feels like FFG has a frustrating habit of reinventing the wheel that this is pretty well in line with, sigh. I'm not giving up on the game yet (not that I can spend any money on it right now anyway with the product shortages!) but what's more worrying to me is the dev statements than the number of erratas at this point. No one understands a CCG fully in the first few years, so most outright mistakes (as opposed to contextual mistakes) get made within that time period and it is almost unavoidable that some will exist. I don't feel like this number is egregious - look at how many flagrantly absurd cards Magic made even several years in (they didn't get it under control until after Urza's Saga). I am discouraged by the focus on aggression though. It feels like if Jango and Poe/Maz are "we messed up the power level a little" vs "this is several steps too fast", then the card design isn't going to make the game fun for me in the long-term.
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Jul 8, 2017 16:33
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I believe Inked and the other custom playmat sites have options for multiple sizes - you could probably get one made that way if you just want a few for the LGS. You'd have to do the graphic design yourself, of course.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:53
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Hauki posted:I mean, the two player starter is the only new one so far since the game released. This is the first 'base set' they've released since awakenings, but we have yet to see what that actually means. Yeah I feel like more products of the quality of the 2 player starter would be really welcome, it's a strong product.
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Oct 6, 2017 23:59
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Wezlar posted:I'm happy with the changes but at this point I'm sort of worried every time the meta settles and people start bitching we're going to see a bunch of nerfs. My feeling is that every collectible game should be very willing to make changes early on. Virtually no one knows how to design for these kinds of games early on, because real life feedback is so hard to get in time to seriously impact development cycles. I think FFG was better off setting a 3-4 month set release even if that meant they'd have to do some nerfing, because letting games stagnate early is even worse. Obviously if they keep screwing it up it gets worse, but "game resolves too fast" is an issue Destiny had/has, and that's one that's very hard to fix by adjustment in later sets. It's one reason that I think the above applies - generally designers can't figure out the speed of the format pre-printing with reasonable playtest resources.
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Oct 25, 2017 20:16
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Sneaky Homunculus posted:Yeah, the new formats should be Standard, Infinite, and Draft. I get what they are trying for with Trilogy, trying to get in new players, but draft covers that just as well. Trilogy is like Block in Magic, which was unpopular and eventually phased out as an official format. Trilogy is almost certainly motivated, at least in the short-term, by a realization that they are never going to be able to get enough Awakenings into print if the game grows; it gives people a format they can run if the game starts taking off in their area that will only allow cards they'll be printing in decent quantity. It does seem a bit like a questionable compromise though, and Block was always a hated format in MTG, though Destiny's different enough that might not hold here.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:55
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