|
rkajdi posted:No they aren't. It's only 12 people, and the lawyers immediately select out people who feel strongly about the issue or are similar to either side. It's the shittiest form of democracy, where anyone with an actual dog in the fight (or at least the ones who don't lie) or a level of education on the issue is selected out. Qualified professionals elected would do a better job by a long site. So then what would be your message to the 1960s gay rights activists, just wait several decades for another method of recourse? How about your message now to drug users when our elected officials still think permanently destroying their lives is the smart approach? Our politicians are dedicated to some incredibly stupid and destructive policies and in some cases the jury is literally the only recourse. I would also note that the only other major recourse in the drug war has been referendums which also depend on those uneducated rubes you hate so much. The ostensibly smarter politicians, even the Democratic ones, are still largely ardent Nancy Reagan drug warriors.
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 19:53 |
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:I also think it's incorrect to view what Conyers, Coates, etc. are doing as "trying to alleviate the situation with the small power they can muster". It's actually grandstanding for a project they know will never work, especially in Conyers' case. Maybe Coates actually believes his own propaganda but Conyers knows full well it's never going to happen based on the past 10,000 time his proposals failed to make it out of committee. It's keeping it in the public eye which is important. Actual change will pretty much only come from community initiatives and people who can deal it back themselves with charity, as in the status quo we already see. I'm pessimistic though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:09
|
|
|
bag em and tag em posted:I am not asserting an equivalence AT ALL between those examples, but please please please do not with a straight face try to claim we haven't had dozens and dozens of liberal thinkpieces written about what end up amounting to offhand social media sarcasm thrown onto twitter by a white person. I, too, equivocate hate crimes with one particular private college campus's nonsense. You can say you're not equivocating, but you are.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:10
|
|
|
Sharkopath posted:I think cultural resistance to policies that would enact the change needed to actually begin to unscrew the darn near hundreds of years of racism systematic and otherwise is untenable currently and in the near future. People still keeping it up on the forefront have my admiration and sympathy but the opposition has done their best to create a deep divide that is probably more insurmountable than it might seem, at least speaking nationally. You don't have to "change hearts and minds". That's a liberal lie that they tell to make societal change seem impossible. At the turn of the 20th century the United States was a far, far more racist country than it is today to the point that the first and by far most popular film was the "noble" story of the Ku Klux Klan, but that didn't stop 12% of Americans from joining a socialist, multi-racial & anti-racist, revolutionary union organization known as the IWW. About 20,000 Bolsheviks were able to take control of a country of a 100 million. Even Martin Luther King didn't change hearts and minds through rational argument and in fact he was despised by most white people of his time, and it's only his victories that transformed him into an American hero. You're going about everything the wrong way because you've been duped by the liberal establishment, which doesn't want to change anything, into believing that change is impossible unless you convince everyone of the morality of your cause first.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:18
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:You don't have to "change hearts and minds". That's a liberal lie that they tell to make societal change seem impossible. At the turn of the 20th century the United States was a far, far more racist country than it is today to the point that the first and by far most popular film was the "noble" story of the Ku Klux Klan, but that didn't stop 12% of Americans from joining a socialist, multi-racial & anti-racist, revolutionary union organization known as the IWW. About 20,000 Bolsheviks were able to take control of a country of a 100 million. Even Martin Luther King didn't change hearts and minds through rational argument and in fact he was despised by most white people of his time, and it's only his victories that transformed him into an American hero. You're going about everything the wrong way because you've been duped by the liberal establishment, which doesn't want to change anything, into believing that change is impossible unless you convince everyone of the morality of your cause first. Your math, like your ideas, is bad.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:23
|
|
|
rkajdi posted:No they aren't. It's only 12 people, and the lawyers immediately select out people who feel strongly about the issue or are similar to either side. It's the shittiest form of democracy, where anyone with an actual dog in the fight (or at least the ones who don't lie) or a level of education on the issue is selected out. Qualified professionals elected would do a better job by a long site. That bit about "lawyers selecting people out" is in fact a case of the "qualified professionals" being given extra power in the process. So I agree, more democracy would be good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:26
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:You don't have to "change hearts and minds". That's a liberal lie that they tell to make societal change seem impossible. At the turn of the 20th century the United States was a far, far more racist country than it is today to the point that the first and by far most popular film was the "noble" story of the Ku Klux Klan, but that didn't stop 12% of Americans from joining a socialist, multi-racial & anti-racist, revolutionary union organization known as the IWW. About 20,000 Bolsheviks were able to take control of a country of a 100 million. Even Martin Luther King didn't change hearts and minds through rational argument and in fact he was despised by most white people of his time, and it's only his victories that transformed him into an American hero. You're going about everything the wrong way because you've been duped by the liberal establishment, which doesn't want to change anything, into believing that change is impossible unless you convince everyone of the morality of your cause first. Duped nothing, it was always violence and the threat of it that led to change, at lightest just fear of general disruption. I already know that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:26
|
|
|
.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:27
|
|
|
Sharkopath posted:Duped nothing, it was always violence and the threat of it that led to change, at lightest just fear of general disruption. I already know that. It's not even that. It's not a matter of violence or "hearts and minds" or any other lie they tell you. Political change is accomplished through political power and nothing else.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:32
|
|
|
All activist politics have a very similar and longstanding problem on the internet: Its very easy to cut off contact with the right and then spend disproportionate time and energy fighting people on the left. saying the magic words "identity politics" just means this time around yall are arguing about black people. Its only becoming a bigger problem now since more activists are getting absorbed in internet culture and naturally secluding themselves, and the internet has more messaging power to outsiders that isnt being effectively used as a result since the only communication between sides is taking potshots at conservatives who are in a similar internet bubble. It's a big opportunity cost, mostly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:36
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Your math, like your ideas, is bad. I don't see any math in that post, unless you are questioning the numbers themselves. Do have better figures on the IWW's historical membership totals, or how many people identified as Bolshevik's?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:36
|
|
|
That should have been 12% of US industrial workers, (though admittedly not all at one time), and estimates of Bolshevik membership in February 1917 range from 20k-30k. Obviously those rose massively, especially following the July Days, but that's exactly my point!
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:38
|
|
|
Johnnie5 posted:I don't see any math in that post, unless you are questioning the numbers themselves. Do have better figures on the IWW's historical membership totals, or how many people identified as Bolshevik's? IWW at its peak in 1917 totalled 150,000 members which is not 12% of the 1917 US population.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:38
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:That should have been 12% of US industrial workers, (though admittedly not all at one time), and estimates of Bolshevik membership in February 1917 range from 20k-30k. Obviously those rose massively, especially following the July Days, but that's exactly my point! stone cold posted:IWW at its peak in 1917 totalled 150,000 members which is not 12% of the 1917 US population. 12% did seem high to me, thanks for the clarification.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:45
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I, too, equivocate hate crimes with one particular private college campus's nonsense. You can say you're not equivocating, but you are. My post does not at any point say that the hate crimes are equivalent to the campus incident. In fact I specifically state that hate crimes are bad and should be stopped while saying that the campus incident and others on that level are minor but usually blown out of proportion to the extent that people tune out idpol. I did the opposite of say they are equal occurences.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:51
|
|
|
Sharkopath posted:I think you might have thought of this as a sick own when it is the daily reality and something already understood.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:02
|
|
|
Anyways the sui generis concept of identity politics had a good run for the few years since its inception and we'll all have to live without it now that it's broken and dead.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:23
|
|
|
Control Volume posted:Anyways the sui generis concept of identity politics had a good run for the few years since its inception and we'll all have to live without it now that it's broken and dead. The avatar of white identity politics is running the country in a month, friend.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:27
|
|
|
stone cold posted:The avatar of white identity politics is running the country in a month, friend. Sorry, but identity politics is gone per the new york times. We'll just have to make do and start calling them conservatives again.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:32
|
|
|
stone cold posted:The avatar of white identity politics is running the country in a month, friend. This is boneheaded take that liberals have accepted and they wonder why they aren't running the country anymore.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:39
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:This is boneheaded take that liberals have accepted and they wonder why they aren't running the country anymore. I forgot, Donald "Beloved by The KKK and White Nationalists" Trump pandered to.... gosh darn it who was it that wanted to kick out all the Hispanics, put Muslims in camps, and thinks we don't have enough law and order, aka killing of black youths. Gee I wonder who is feeling economic anxiety that is like the working class but without all the minorities? Hmm.... must be people with unknowable motives who are real lone wolves.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:47
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I forgot, Donald "Beloved by The KKK and White Nationalists" Trump pandered to.... gosh darn it who was it that wanted to kick out all the Hispanics, put Muslims in camps, and thinks we don't have enough law and order, aka killing of black youths. Donald Trump got more of the black and Latino vote, proportionally, than Mitt Romney. He won in part because they either voted third party or stayed home. And those horrible white people who swung Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin? They mostly stayed home or voted third party too. You and your ilk have nothing to offer black, Latino or LGBT communities, let alone the rest of the working class, because all you have to offer is defeat after defeat. Liberal identity politics is not enough to prop up liberalism.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:51
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Cool your persecution complex. loving lol.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:54
|
|
|
Listen, Trump got 10% of the black vote instead of 7%. Clearly the Republicans are the true party of black interests now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:55
|
|
|
Schizotek posted:Listen, Trump got 10% of the black vote instead of 7%. Clearly the Republicans are the true party of black interests now. No one is saying that, Einstein. I'm pointing out that the hysteria about how Trump is Turbo-Hitler fell completely flat for every demographic it was supposed to because liberal identity politics offer absolutely nothing to the people they claim to represent.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:59
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:Donald Trump got more of the black and Latino vote, proportionally, than Mitt Romney. He won in part because they either voted third party or stayed home. Certainly Trump's suppressive tactics, media incompetence, or John Roberts' declaration that racism is over and cheerful gutting of the VRA had nothing to do with it. Thug Lessons posted:And those horrible white people who swung Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin? They mostly stayed home or voted third party too. White middle class people are the ones destroying this country, hth. Thug Lessons posted:You and your ilk have nothing to offer black, Latino or LGBT communities, let alone the rest of the working class, because all you have to offer is defeat after defeat. Liberal identity politics is not enough to prop up liberalism. Telling that a. you leave out the q b. You refer to me and other people compassionate about social justice and minority rights and struggles me and my ilk c. women, native Americans, and Asians never figure into your calculus and d. you only now care about the working class as a rhetorical stick to bludgeon me with. Go back to your suburb, trashboii, and I'm glad you think minorities should side with your politics which largely seem to revolve around shoveling them gleefully into the TrumpCamps.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:02
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Certainly Trump's suppressive tactics, media incompetence, or John Roberts' declaration that racism is over and cheerful gutting of the VRA had nothing to do with it. Your zeal is a disservice to the cause as much as effectronica and makes me wonder if you are a troll.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:09
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Certainly Trump's suppressive tactics, media incompetence, or John Roberts' declaration that racism is over and cheerful gutting of the VRA had nothing to do with it. Minorities have already rejected you. You spent the election trying to whip them up into a frenzy about Trump while offering them nothing. You have no way to advance the cause of women, black people, Latinos or any other minority besides to point to your mirror image and say you're better than that guy. And a month ago you were telling us that there was going to be a surge from those groups to put your horrible, corrupt neoliberal candidate in office, and that surge never materialized. It was the opposite. They voted Republican even more than last time, and most of them stayed home. You have already lost. I have no idea whether the US working class will adopt revolutionary socialism, but thank God they're finally done with you.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:10
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:Minorities have already rejected you. You spent the election trying to whip them up into a frenzy about Trump while offering them nothing. You have no way to advance the cause of women, black people, Latinos or any other minority besides to point to your mirror image and say you're better than that guy. And a month ago you were telling us that there was going to be a surge from those groups to put your horrible, corrupt neoliberal candidate in office, and that surge never materialized. It was the opposite. They voted Republican even more than last time, and most of them stayed home. You have already lost. I have no idea whether the US working class will adopt revolutionary socialism, but thank God they're finally done with you. I too am immensely gleeful at the prospect of minorities being shoved into the ovens. You should probably get your time machine functional so you can actually go back in time and guard a concentration camp, you foul ghoul. I am deeply relieved that you think your precious ideological purity will be a comfort to victims of the hate crimes and affronts to human rights that your boii Trump will be perpetuating.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:15
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:Minorities have already rejected you. You spent the election trying to whip them up into a frenzy about Trump while offering them nothing. You have no way to advance the cause of women, black people, Latinos or any other minority besides to point to your mirror image and say you're better than that guy. And a month ago you were telling us that there was going to be a surge from those groups to put your horrible, corrupt neoliberal candidate in office, and that surge never materialized. It was the opposite. They voted Republican even more than last time, and most of them stayed home. You have already lost. I have no idea whether the US working class will adopt revolutionary socialism, but thank God they're finally done with you. Depressed minority vote probably has more to do with VRA shenanigans than them not being worried about Trump. But then again: Thug Lessons posted:Let's stop pretending ISIS is something special. Basically any Muslim would love to Rambo a gay nightclub and the only reason they haven't is because liberal cucks have taken all their guns. You aren't really a leftist, and just kinda pretend to be for some weird reason? Like why lie about where your actual politics lay? There's room enough in D&D for open Trump supporters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:16
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Your zeal is a disservice to the cause as much as effectronica and makes me wonder if you are a troll. I am glad to not be an ally to your cause which seems to be "hey black people, fix your own law enforcement injustices top kek" You should probably go back to 4chan.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:16
|
|
|
MaxxBot posted:Many, many people on here have expressed to me the opinion that as long as it's "punching up" it's acceptable. I agree that the "you must denounce these people nominally associated with you ideologically" is dumb poo poo but you ought to not explicitly condone their actions. This pisses me off so much. The whole punching up thing is to do with power. It is to do with punching up at the people in power or pulling the strings of power. Privilege != power. Being white is not powerful, it's a ticket to not suffer the bullshit minorities have to face. Which is a sweet deal if you get it, but it's not the same as having power. You can't poo poo on white people and pretend you're punching up. Especially when the rural poor are the target. "Punching up" at poor rural whites is basically the definition of loving up what punching up means. Comedy is one of the best ways to rhetorically hit back against power. Don't gently caress with it by using it to perpetuate the entire reason modern racism exists (scapegoating demographics to shield the elites). Specific white people are loving poo poo up. Blame those specific people. Also attacking a political base is amazing. Keep focus on politicians and their sugar daddies. Those are the people who make the real decisions and manipulate the public. Futuresight fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Dec 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:18
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I too am immensely gleeful at the prospect of minorities being shoved into the ovens. You want to pretend I'm celebrating the Trump presidency, but I'm not. I'm celebrating that you were proved wrong. Trump is a living nightmare, and your dead-end politics are the reason he's here.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:17
|
|
|
Schizotek posted:Depressed minority vote probably has more to do with VRA shenanigans than them not being worried about Trump. No, it wasn't. This is just a lie liberals like to tell themselves to excuse their abysmal failure. If the message of liberal identity politics on steroids was actually compelling to minorities you would have seen a voting surge that dwarfed all the voter suppression. It wasn't, and now because of your worthless incompetence we have live through Trump raping the country to death for the next four years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:20
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:You want to pretend I'm celebrating the Trump presidency, but I'm not. I'm celebrating that you were proved wrong. Trump is a living nightmare, and your dead-end politics are the reason he's here. I was proved wrong that what? Minorities deserve rights? Human rights belong to all, not just white cishet middle class and above men? That people deserve a universal basic income? That imperialism and capitalism are eating the world alive? That capital punishment shouldn't exist? Maybe quit projecting your own terrible politics onto me, because those are my values.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:24
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I am glad to not be an ally to your cause which seems to be "hey black people, fix your own law enforcement injustices top kek" Actually it's get involved in city councils and push for change. Speaking of 4chan I could swear you are a troll from there of a stereotypical campus lefty
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:24
|
|
|
Crowsbeak posted:Actually it's get involved in city councils and push for change. Speaking of 4chan I could swear you are a troll from there of a stereotypical campus lefty Again, project much? Also, it's pretty adorable that you think I'm a 4chan troll for thinking that minorities are people.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:29
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I was proved wrong that what? Minorities deserve rights? Human rights belong to all, not just white cishet middle class and above men? That people deserve a universal basic income? That imperialism and capitalism are eating the world alive? That capital punishment shouldn't exist? You don't have any values. You have a bunch of slogans that prove how much better you are than everyone else. And the American people, black and white alike, man and woman like, gay and straight alike, listened to you spout that self-righteous garbage for an 18-month election season then got up and spat in your face. In a more honest ideology this would prompt some self-reflection but you can never expect that from liberals.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:29
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:No, it wasn't. This is just a lie liberals like to tell themselves to excuse their abysmal failure. If the message of liberal identity politics on steroids was actually compelling to minorities you would have seen a voting surge that dwarfed all the voter suppression. It wasn't, and now because of your worthless incompetence we have live through Trump raping the country to death for the next four years. What, besides the esteemed opinion of yourself, makes it a lie? VRA got gutted. A bunch of states, including swing states, took advantage to shut down hundreds of minority polling stations and remove early voting. Do you have any proof that, uh, "Making the entire platform about minorities" or whatever the gently caress fever dream idiots in this thread actually think is a thing was the reason and not that?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 19:53 |
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:You don't have any values. You have a bunch of slogans that prove how much better you are than everyone else. And the American people, black and white alike, man and woman like, gay and straight alike, listened to you spout that self-righteous garbage for an 18-month election season then got up and spat in your face. In a more honest ideology this would prompt some self-reflection but you can never expect that from liberals. This person gets it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:31
|
|