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I've been asked to donate sperm to a couple I know well, as they can't otherwise conceive. In terms of the spiritual and ethical questions, I'm happy to ponder through those myself. My questions are on the legal side of things. My wife and I have assets that aren't insubstantial in both the USA and New South Wales, Australia. We're fairly global citizens and could end up living in other jurisdictions quite easily, likely holding not insubstantial assets there too. My perspective on donating sperm is: - Probably willing to do it, if I can work through the ethical and spiritual issues and my wife consents; - But I want the kid to be effectively only the child of the donee parents, with no claim against me; and - In particular, I have dependents (wife, siblings, siblings' children) who are or may be financially dependent on me, so I don't want the kid or courts or parents chasing me or (when I die) my estate for funds. That is, I'd like to be in a position were I give them a jar of my baby gravy and I walk away with no rights or obligations. Has anyone considered the legal part of this, particularly under the laws of New York and/or NSW? Any perspectives on the ethical/spiritual sides of this are welcome, too. As well as insights into how this may impact me and my wife in unexpected ways. But it's primarily the legal side I'm focused on.
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Dec 23, 2016 03:53
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Consider what you expect the relationship to the child to be. Most anonymous donors don't expect to ever see the child, but they may end up meeting the child one day because the child wants to meet their biological father. In this case, you're not anonymous and presumably, you will remain friends and in touch with the couple, which could potentially have emotional impacts on both you, the child, and their parents. Are they going to keep this a secret from the child? What age do they tell the child? What happens if the child doesn't like their father and goes running to you? What happens if the couple gets divorced? It's not just spiritual issues and ethical issues, the biggest part is when it becomes an emotional issue.
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Dec 23, 2016 04:46
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i fly airplanes posted:Consider what you expect the relationship to the child to be. Most anonymous donors don't expect to ever see the child, but they may end up meeting the child one day because the child wants to meet their biological father. I currently live on the other side of the planet, but there's a good chance I'll end up the same city and back in the immediate social circle as the child in the next 5 - 7 year. In any case, I'd certainly be in the same city at least annually and would see the child. Parents want me to act as "favoured uncle", but they plan to tell the kid what the deal is when he/she can understand (?? what age that is, but they are the sort of people who would read up/consult psychologists/think well about it). I appreciate these sort of arrangements are complicated and it's difficult to foresee how things will pan out when agreements are forgotten and emotions/urges take over. Any examples of what arrangements work vs those that sound nice but fail would be welcome.
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Dec 23, 2016 04:56
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Pyramid Scheme posted:- But I want the kid to be effectively only the child of the donee parents, with no claim against me Which will blow up in your face the moment 'anything" changes. Ranging from "You're my father I DEMAND to know about you" right up too "I don't care what we agreed at the beginning, you're the father I want child support" Suspicious mind moment: Why do thy want the rich guys juice? Why not go through a doctor?
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Dec 23, 2016 05:00
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http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/01/03/168568383/kansas-presses-sperm-donor-to-pay-child-support I'm not a lawyer, but I offer this article as an example of how even when everyone involved is in agreement of giving up parental rights, the government may not agree. Get a lawyer if you want to do it.
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Dec 23, 2016 05:23
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504 posted:Suspicious mind moment: Why do thy want the rich guys juice? Why not go through a doctor? The parents-to-be think highly of me, which is likely misguided, but there you go. Donation would be via a doctor or whatever else is required to "sterilise" the obligations/rights as much as possible. I'm an ex-lawyer and the father-to-be is a criminal lawyer. Which is not to say either of us are terribly familiar with the legal regimes re: sperm donation. I've asked that they provide what research they've already done on legal liability, but that will likely be NSW law only.
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Dec 23, 2016 05:36
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Pyramid Scheme posted:The parents-to-be think highly of me, which is likely misguided, but there you go. My advice is to stay in NSW and away from from American baby crazy women. A single woman with a baby pleading for government benefits can go before the court and say that so-and-so knocked them up. As far as the courts are concerned, you're the baby daddy, and so you're on the hook for child support. It's easier to charge you for child support than the taxpayers. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 07:56
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Being a non-anonymous donor is really loving tricky, from a legal perspective. At least in America, there are lawyers that specialize in this sort of thing. While not cheap, it sounds like you can afford it -- ideally, the couple you are donating for should pay but I'll let that "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs" discussion happen with your best judgement. Your lawyer will tell you that even the best agreements aren't ironclad. Anecdotally, they seem weaker in Commonwealth countries so keep that in mind. Even with the best legal protection, you can still get screwed since it is still your kid. But it's better to protect yourself as best you can now. I applaud what you are doing, it is a good and noble thing. And likely it will go off without a hitch since presumably the person you know is a good person and you trust them with good reason. But it's smart to protect yourself. Source: I used to moonlight at a sperm bank and we'd hear all kinds of poo poo in the lab. I'm not a lawyer and am working from hearsay but it is from "within" the industry.
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Dec 23, 2016 10:13
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You could make an agreement with the donees stating they will be responsible but if they don't provide for the kid the court will consider the welfare of the child ahead of any such agreement. Spermbanks try to set up an anonymizing system to get around this. In Australia you just have to cum in a kangaroos pouch for sport.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:47
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Go through an agency, or at least find an attorney who is very experienced in drawing up these agreements. I was an egg donor for friends, and I had an attorney and they had an attorney even though we were using an agency as well. Good luck!
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Dec 28, 2016 04:16
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In my opinion, Get a lawyer. I'm more familiar with Canadian laws, but you are most likely legally responsible for the child if there is a pregnancy. Any doctor you find that is willing to use sperm that isn't a) from the partner b) from a sperm donor (Xytex, Seattle Sperm Bank) had better have a pretty ironclad contract. Moreover, the actual procedure itself should at least be an intrauterine insemination (IUI) which requires washing the sperm in a gradient. I find it wildly unlikely that the doctor would do this, so you'd need a semen laboratory - which isn't going to accept random sperm. If the "procedure" doesn't involve an IUI, your doctor isn't a legitimate fertility specialist and whatever paperwork you've signed seems very suspect.
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Dec 28, 2016 12:26
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504 posted:Which will blow up in your face the moment 'anything" changes. Ranging from "You're my father I DEMAND to know about you" right up too "I don't care what we agreed at the beginning, you're the father I want child support" Keep this in mind OP. My mother was pretty well-off when she got me. She and my father didn't stay together for the unexpected baby (me), thank god, and she told him she did not intent to ever collect child support. There was no reason to; she had more money than she knew what to do with. So when she lost her business and all the savings were gone when I was about 10-11, the choice between going back on her word or not being able to make rent or feed me became a really easy one. She never had any bad intentions from the beginning and was completely genuine, but situations change.
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Dec 30, 2016 10:50
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I am godmother/aunt to the kids of a lesbian couple's kids, and they chose a non-anon sperm donor, one of the women's friends. He is Uncle G, was at the kids' first few birthday parties, but has no real contact with them, which is what every adult decided was best (even his wife, who was cool with the entire thing, or so everyone says). But here's the clincher: only one of the women is a bio parent to the kids. So if something happened to her, the kids wouldn't live with her wife; they'd go to foster care and then likely be shuttled to Uncle G, a man they barely know, because he is the legal father. Now with gay marriage and adoption (I think?) legal, less worries. But G always has that axe over his head: poo poo comes down and he is liable for child support for both kids. No legal way around it. And even, OP, if you get the whole legal thing set, the courts can later say that support is in the child's best interest and you will be on the hook. How does your wife feel about this, also? Are you planning to have kids with her, and if so, will you explain away this other half-sibling with ease? Also, what happens if said baby is twins? Or the baby has physical or mental challenges/handicaps? In short, if the genes line up and the baby isn't what the parents were hoping for, you're on the hook still.
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Dec 30, 2016 14:08
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I know nothing about the USA but I used to work in an IVF clinic in NSW so know a bit about that. Over here, there is no such thing as "annonymous sperm donation" anymore - donors may be "de-identified" (ie assigned a code which is all the recipients see but can be matched up to the person by someone with access to the database). This is a legal thing as all donors must be on the central donor register, which stores all donors' information (including identifying information) which the resulting offspring are entitled to access when they are of legal age to do so. I'm not a lawyer at all but my understanding is that it is in order to give the (grown up) kid the opportunity to make contact with and/or learn more about their biological parent but they are still not the legal child of the donor. If you are a "known donor", as in this case, then they don't de-identify you with a code but you still have to go on the register with all the other donors which means regardless of what the kid's parents tell them about you and the arrangement, you are identifiable as the kid's biological parent and the kid is able to look you up on the register when they grow up and connect with you if they wish. I'm sure a lawyer or even an ART provider would be able to give you more accurate information about the legalities involved but my (several years old...) understanding is that even though you are not de-identified (and as such its up to the parents as to how much/what they tell the kid), your rights and responsibilities are the same as any other donor which means you have to be on the register and consent to the possibility of future 18 year olds contacting you but they are not your legal children (this is of course assuming you go through the clinic and are a registered donor and it wasnt a "turkey baster at home" type informal arrangement which I imagine would be way more open to interpretation). Info about the donor register: http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/art/Pages/default.aspx tl;dr in NSW all registered donors (even the de-identified ones) are identifiable by the children when they grow up, no sperm donations are truly annonymous. If you are getting the procedure done in NSW talk to an ART provider and/or a lawyer, but I think as long as you are a registered donor then the legal side of things should be pretty straightforward.
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Dec 31, 2016 01:12
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Cheers RiverPebble, this is helpful. The parents (and most of my assets) are based in NSW and your link is a useful start. I'll dig into the Act. If anyone has info on New York or US federal laws which are relevant (ie where I live for the time being), that would also help. I'd be doing this through a clinic rather than turkey baster, as I understand the former gets me (as donor) the most protection in various jurisdictions. In terms of the kid turning up at my door at any stage - I figure that's inevitable and likely harrowing. On the other hand, I'm a former lawyer, now investment banker, so fairly pre-disposed to being a heartless bastard. I expect I'll be involved in the kid's life to some degree, in any case. My main concern is ensuring I'm clear on what legal claims - if any - the kid could have on my assets or estate, as that impacts the financial security of my other dependents. And thanks to all the other posters in this thread. While I think I can prepare for all eventualities, all the perspectives are useful.
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Dec 31, 2016 05:12
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Thanks for this thread. My fiance and I are in the opposite position, asking a couple of friends if they'd be willing to donate for us. Interesting to read some of the legal considerations I hadn't thought about much before now.
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Dec 31, 2016 21:21
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Pyramid Scheme posted:Cheers RiverPebble, this is helpful. The parents (and most of my assets) are based in NSW and your link is a useful start. I'll dig into the Act. Sperm donation is canvassed in a course I'm doing on Australian medical ethics so I can maybe provide some insight. The law, currently, in NSW is that a sperm donor has no legal relationship with a child conceived through their donation; the actual custodial and parental rights are encoded in the NHMRC Ethical Guidelines 2007 (specifically those seconds related to the use of assisted reproductive technology in clinical practice and research) and the Human Tissue Act 1982. The recipient couple are the legal parents of the child with parental rights and responsibilities indistinguishable from a naturally conceived child and the child has claimed rights only against the recipient couple as if they were the biological parents. To say things as plainly and clearly as possible, the law sees no difference between a couple that conceived a child naturally than a child conceived through donation, the donor and child have no legal relationship at all. There is no mechanism under the law to change these arrangements so you would have no legal standing to sue to any paternal rights and any product of your donation has no legal standing to demand anything of you. In the eyes of the law, your rights are indistinguishable from a non relative friend of the family. In common law, this hasn't been challenged in NSW so, while this is the law as it stands now, there's no guarantee that someone (perhaps your biological son or daughter, being the hidiously successful child of an investment banker/lawyer/rich person) won't petition the court to change the law and there's no guarantee that this wouldn't trigger a change in existing legislation. I would pin the actual odds of this happening at approximately zero but I also cannot comment on the tenacity or industriousness of your gold-digging future biological child nor the eagerness they may have to seize your assets and leave you destitute. I would point out that NSW is required, by legislation to maintain a register of identifying information for all donated sperm; there is no current mechanism to release that information for any reason however it should give you that 0.1% quantity of worry that, if the law were to change in the future, there is a way to legally connect you to the products of your conception (compare that to Queensland and South Australia that don't keep a register so any changes to the law wouldn't put people on the hook for historical donations, only future ones). Like I said, though, current legislation shields you from this happening and I would be frankly shocked if this were to change because such a change would have pretty wide-ranging impacts on the process of donation in Australia. e: also, the law in New York or the US would have no relevance, the child would be born as an Australian citizen to Australian parents (presumably) so they have no standing to petition US courts to hold you to any parental obligation. Serrath fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 08:08
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After reading some stories it seems like donating is just all around risky with being straddled with possible future obligations. Wish I knew that before entering a six month donating program but oh well.
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Jan 3, 2017 03:23
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Serrath posted:Sperm donation is canvassed in a course I'm doing on Australian medical ethics so I can maybe provide some insight. The law, currently, in NSW is that a sperm donor has no legal relationship with a child conceived through their donation; the actual custodial and parental rights are encoded in the NHMRC Ethical Guidelines 2007 (specifically those seconds related to the use of assisted reproductive technology in clinical practice and research) and the Human Tissue Act 1982. The recipient couple are the legal parents of the child with parental rights and responsibilities indistinguishable from a naturally conceived child and the child has claimed rights only against the recipient couple as if they were the biological parents. To say things as plainly and clearly as possible, the law sees no difference between a couple that conceived a child naturally than a child conceived through donation, the donor and child have no legal relationship at all. Thanks. Very useful stuff. On your last point, the question is more on rights against my estate (in as far as there my wife and I have real estate in the US). I expect rights against the US assets would be governed by US state law (NY in this case) and it's possible a biological child could have a claim under whatever is the equivalent of the NSW Family Provision Act. I suspect most US state laws would operate to deny claims of a clinic-donor child, but that's what I'd need to work through to be sure. I'd be dead, but my concern is less about me, more about some family dependents. All that said, my wife and I discussed this over the last week and she has vetoed the idea, even if legal duties/claims could be clearly severed. I now have to deal with the unpleasant task of telling the couple that they can't have my genetic material. They've suffered enough heartbreak, it's not pleasant to add to that.
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Jan 3, 2017 06:08
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Pyramid Scheme posted:
I can tell you with confidence that you're mistaken. For a biological child to assert rights against your estate, it would need standing; in the eyes of US law, it is an Australian born child to Australian parents, it's biology isn't sufficient cause to grant it access to US courts to recover US assets. The only means through which it could challenge your estate is locally, through NSW courts, who could make a finding that you owe from your US estate but there's little chance that your hypothetical biological child could find the resources to actually collect on this sort of judgement. Generally people who are not US citizens have a challenging time accessing US courts to recover US property, biological child of a US citizen or not. This would actually be hard even if you acknowledged this biological child as your own, even if they crossed that initial step (which wouldnt happen under current law), they would still have an uphill battle in getting these rights recognized. I mean, i guess the point is moot if your wife already veto'd the idea. But if you end up giving it a second thought, you can trust me as a foremost authority on the internet in medical and genetic law and ethics that the circumstances of your case would protect your Australian and US assets if your hypothetical Machiavellian biological child were to petition the court for your assets, whether you were alive or dead.
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Jan 3, 2017 07:17
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I don't know why they don't just adopt some kid unless they want to keep the maternal bloodline alive for a presumably aristocratic reason. I get that she probably wants to have her own baby but this seems like a lot of rigamarole to cajole you for your sperm. Just give them a street urchin you find and claim that it carries your seed, that way you have no legal connection at all and there are no hurt feelings. I looked this up on legalzoom and I'm sure there will be no repercussions.
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Jan 4, 2017 14:25
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Hotel Kpro posted:After reading some stories it seems like donating is just all around risky with being straddled with possible future obligations. Wish I knew that before entering a six month donating program but oh well. Did any of the stories you read involve guys who had donated to sperm banks? I was under the impression that all the "sperm donor paternity suit" cases in the US involved someone jerking off in a cup and handing it to the recipient without having any sort of doctor involved.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:05
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N. Senada posted:I don't know why they don't just adopt some kid unless they want to keep the maternal bloodline alive for a presumably aristocratic reason. I get that she probably wants to have her own baby but this seems like a lot of rigamarole to cajole you for your sperm. Just give them a street urchin you find and claim that it carries your seed, that way you have no legal connection at all and there are no hurt feelings. I looked this up on legalzoom and I'm sure there will be no repercussions. Adoption is surprisingly MORE expensive and MORE work than just using reproductive technologies. Even for international adoptions, you can't just pick up an orphan street kid in India and take it home, you have to go through all sorts of bullshit and pay like 50,000 bucks. Why do that when you can just pump yourself full of donated sperm and get a baby that way?
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Jan 4, 2017 17:42
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Cockmaster posted:Did any of the stories you read involve guys who had donated to sperm banks? I was under the impression that all the "sperm donor paternity suit" cases in the US involved someone jerking off in a cup and handing it to the recipient without having any sort of doctor involved. I was under the same impression and from the looks of it every state does allow protections if it's done through a sperm bank. I'll probably be fine but I don't want some law redefined in 10 years that fucks me over.
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Jan 4, 2017 23:52
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Out of curiosity, how much money can you make from donating sperm assuming you're healthy and everything?
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Jan 5, 2017 07:50
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N. Senada posted:I don't know why they don't just adopt some kid unless they want to keep the maternal bloodline alive for a presumably aristocratic reason. I get that she probably wants to have her own baby but this seems like a lot of rigamarole to cajole you for your sperm. Just give them a street urchin you find and claim that it carries your seed, that way you have no legal connection at all and there are no hurt feelings. I looked this up on legalzoom and I'm sure there will be no repercussions. Because that's not as good.  As I stated a long time ago in a similar thread, people don't want second hand, expendable chattel as children. (Yes, I'm being snide.)
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Jan 5, 2017 08:43
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N. Senada posted:I don't know why they don't just adopt some kid unless they want to keep the maternal bloodline alive for a presumably aristocratic reason. Adoption in Australia is insanely difficult, expensive and time consuming, and even if you're picture perfect parents (high and steady dual income, white, different gendered, perfect health, no criminal records for you or anyone you've ever associated with, etc. etc.) the process can take years, even over a decade. Family friends of mine adopted both of their children from China, in part because it's cheaper and easier to adopt internationally than domestically (or was at the time, around ten years ago).
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Jan 5, 2017 14:14
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I have learned a lot today and am a better person for it. It is amazing to me that giving parents who want a kid a preexisting kid is the harder way. Like, maybe if you phrase it right people could get tricked. Oh no, it's not adoption, you see, we were just using a sperm donation, womb donation, and a public-subsidized care donation before retrieving our spawn.
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Jan 5, 2017 14:52
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themrguy posted:Out of curiosity, how much money can you make from donating sperm assuming you're healthy and everything? Depends on the bank you go through. Some have no limit on the amount you can donate, some have a cap based on the number of kids that are conceived. I think it was around $250 a month that I was pulling in. Not sure what it would be for other countries, but I know they can't pay you for sperm in Canada.
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Jan 6, 2017 00:34
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N. Senada posted:I don't know why they don't just adopt some kid unless they want to keep the maternal bloodline alive for a presumably aristocratic reason. I get that she probably wants to have her own baby but this seems like a lot of rigamarole to cajole you for your sperm. Just give them a street urchin you find and claim that it carries your seed, that way you have no legal connection at all and there are no hurt feelings. I looked this up on legalzoom and I'm sure there will be no repercussions.
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Jan 9, 2017 14:15
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