Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

stone cold posted:

I'd like to share with all of y'all a feminist who I feel represents a segment of the population we don't often hear from in American feminism: Celine Parre�as Shimizu.

Professor Shimizu is probably best known for her books, Straitjacket Sexualities: Unbinding Asian American Manhoods in the Movies, The Hypersexuality of Race: Performing Asian/ American Women on Screen and Scene, and her films, Mahal Means Love and Expensive, Her Uprooting Plants Her, Super Flip, The Fact of Asian Women, and Birthright. Her family, Pinoy refugees, settled in Boston, and as you might've guessed from the titles, her focus is on sexuality and Asian-American media portrayals.

From The Hypersexuality of Race:

From an interview in Hyphen Magazine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmSqOnR8ucE
I find her discussion of the evolution of the Asian experience in stag, and later porn films, fascinating, particularly on the decay and lessening of classic "Asian accoutrements," eg. the shoji screen, to having Asian women become explicitly coded as domestic partners via wedding rings, despite the lack of Asian performers and having white women in yellow face.

I also really enjoy her discussion on the "in-betweeness" needed when discussing the agency of porn actresses, and that we need to listen to what these women are saying between the spaces of structure and agency when we diagnose the problems with representation in this kind of film.

Was it her that wrote some pretty cool and concise articles on the feminization of asian males back in circa 2012? Used some in a discussion as an explanation of intersectionality of toxic masculinity and race in the US and how we had to stop it from perpetuating here in the same way Black narratives had.

Sharkie posted:

It looks like Celine Shimizu is my homework for tonight because that is some fascinating and important work.

But until I've read her I'd like to about the anti-human trafficking/prostitution campaign the Houston P.D. is waging in anticipation of the upcoming superbowl (and the anticipated rise in trafficking victims due to the increase in visitors to the city).

I don't trust it. The police chief got on TV to announce the campaign which, as far as I can tell, is just an old-fashioned vice sting. They did say they were working with trafficking victim organizations to reserve beds, but beyond that they didn't address anything that seemed targeted at helping victims. Who is getting these beds, and who is just going to jail?

The heart of my problem is that they conflate sex trafficking with prostitution. This doesn't help anyone. It obfuscates the problem while turning sex trafficking into a buzzword that is used to paper over the same old anti-sex worker policies. How does it help anyone to deliberately blur the distinction between coerced victims and women who choose to work in the sex business? Doesn't it cheapen and damage the very concept of sex trafficking to use it in what is pretty clearly an antiprostituion vice bust? It's telling that this operation is supposedly against "human trafficking," which includes sex trafficking and labor trafficking, yet the police chief ends it by saying "For the johns," Acevedo said, "We're putting you on notice today... When we arrest you, we will expose you for the sick person that you are." Because sending the press photos of arrested johns is going to keep enslaved women safe .

I'm biased, but it's kind of disgusting to see the police use something as serious as human trafficking as wallpaper for what is pretty clearly an operation to protect the city's image while the tourists are in town.

# ¿ Jan 14, 2017 18:58

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 00:25

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Yeah, a huge part of international efforts against human trafficking has firstly been to actually define what it is.

There's been a huge waste of resources by the UN for instance where they try and fight indigenous traditions involving talib�, while completely overlooking gross poo poo like organ trafficking where, again the vast number of victims are poor women because it's happening outside the west to their benefit. Nancy Scheper-Hughes has done a shitload of research into that and it's all depressing.

I personally am always kinda hesitant to talk about the issue as it comes to prostitution because even if you're legalizing you still end up dealing with the grey-legal areas, about economic coercion and the other shady sides of capitalism and how moral it is to allow that to happen. I dunno.

# ¿ Jan 14, 2017 19:58

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Oh man, the wonderful discussions I've had with dudes about paying women to bear your babies.

"Its no different from manual labour really! It's all a strain on the body!"

Two of the dudes I argued about this with are now in the Icelandic parliament~

# ¿ Jan 15, 2017 16:55

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

stone cold posted:

Yeah, that's part of her area of research. I think her discussion on the hypersexuality in portrayals of Asian and Asian American women, particularly in pornography, contrasted with the feminization of Asian men a pretty interesting contrast. She did some really fascinating archival research at the Kinsey Institute.

Yeah, it was some good poo poo, good some good talking points outta that for some of the groups I was wit then; one of the problems with being up here in aryan country is that a lot of the feminism repeats the problems of the second wave and gets a lil' too much of an upper-middle class white club

stone cold posted:

what does this have to do with feminism?

I'm getting flashbacks to every other open meeting we had at uni where there was always this one fuckwit who haaad to bring up a host of useless, irritating poo poo or whatever he managed to dredge up from reddit

So y'all talkin' 'bout how American women are now seriously hosed because you have some woman hatin' motherfuckers in high places now? What's been up on the grassroots level? I heard about the Nasty Women and whatnot, but have there been any post-Trump/election orgs springing up to fight back on the local level?

# ¿ Jan 16, 2017 01:07

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Defenestration posted:

Everyone's favorite neoliberal egg sucker Jonathan Chait took issue this week with the naming of the Women's March on Washington, which is planned for next week to protest the inauguration.

He has provided a textbook example of... well lots of things. Concern trolling, men demanding access to women's spaces, "allies" who are more interested in getting cookies for their opinions than actually helping, etc.

in other words

http://www.theonion.com/article/man-finally-put-in-charge-of-struggling-feminist-m-2338

My fav question to fuckers like that is if he would have objected to "Mens March on Washington" and if so why. Most of these dudes struggle with the fact that male is always the assumed gender so watching them squirm a lil is fun.

Also, isnt the whole loving point of that march about standing up for the rights of women which are imperiled by the Trump regime? Jesus. Don't get the access point but whaevs

Edit: read up on that dude jesus christ what a wanker

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

That probation is a prime example of why everyone hates D&D. Dude was making bad arguments, but they're still incredibly common arguments, and everyone else was still responding with good stuff that anyone lurking could read and understand.

On one hand, I get what you're saying; if the dude was trolling it was quality poo poo because it was pretty similar to obstinate idiocy we encounter every day.

On the other hand, we encounter that poo poo every day and when I get on the feminism thread I maybe want to talk to other feminist about feminist poo poo and not go through feminism 101 for several pages

Deceitful Penguin fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 16, 2017

# ¿ Jan 16, 2017 22:55

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Uts a good chance to use "because im a woman" in the wild tho

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 00:52

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

"Because while I am a feminist, publically calling myself one attracts a lot of unwanted attention and requires me to constantly defend myself to trolls and idiots" ?

Also, wtf: Is it seriously legal to watch porn on public transport in Britain?

Is this a thing in the US too? Aside from the fact that pornography is illegal in Iceland I can't imagine anyone putting up with that on the Buses here or bringing pornography to school like she mentioned in the article.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 03:30

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Defenestration posted:

Yeah I put the word "feminist" right up front to cut the chaff.

I don't get a lot of gross messages. One time that guy that asked if I knew what a cuckold relationship was (as his first message). It's the form letters that piss me off the most. "Hi, ur pretty." Ok and? Could you read a single word I've written and react to me like a sentient human?

hi do u enjoy feminist discourse

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Yikes. Women do experience much worse on public transit, and it gets laughed at just like this. Assault is the product of escalating boundary-crossing. We can do nothing to combat harassment at any level of we mock women for asserting those boundaries. Doing sexual activities in an environment where not everyone has consented to it is wrong no matter how much of a tough guy you'd like to think of yourself as. Men not caring if they make women uncomfortable in public is wrong and it is a feminist issue, and if you think feminist issues are laughable you are in the wrong thread.

Edit: like did you miss the part where the guy alternated between looking at porn and ogling a 13 year old girl? Men do that poo poo all the time and men like you scold women for objecting to it. What do you get out of acting that way? Are you trying to preserve your own right to be a transit perv?

Yeah, uhhhh, I've had xenophobic slurs thrown at me, had bus drivers listening to right-wing talk radio and those were things I confronted pretty much asap and folks agreed it was wrong.

Getting caught watching porn here is some poo poo that uhhh, would probably end up with your face on social media after a video of you getting confronted about it got popular.

I can sort of understand what they mean about having seen worse, but the existence of worse things doesn't negate other things being bad and especially when we're talking about what makes others uncomfortable; it's very important to not trivialize peoples hurtful experiences just because they wouldn't hurt us.

I Killed GBS posted:

I've written porn while on transit before

I had a laptop and some excruciatingly long train commutes, and those bills didn't pay themselves

were bendytoots involved

this is very important for my decision on your merit as a human being fyi!!!1

(Its ok if it was about his sidekick Bilbo though, he's dreamy~)

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 07:26

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Also, the reason I raised the point was because it's been kinda knocking around my head how a lot of feminist work has just become accepted here, like the fact that pornography is banned from sale, the fact that women aren't forced to ~smile~ and be friendly (basically constantly having to engage in emotional labour) and other poo poo like that.

These sorta day to day things rather than the more rights and justice oriented things we get up to more often here. It started with a talk we had recently where it ended up being a bunch of foreign students/immigrants talking about it and while it's a subject I knew well from a problem perspective (foreign born women are after all perhaps the most societally abused group pretty much everywhere) these other, more subtler things just hadn't occurred to me.

Interesting stuff anyway

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 07:31

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

I Killed GBS posted:

I don't do Real Person Fic, that's a firm line I do not cross.

Acceptable

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

That's really cool, I never knew that about Iceland. Is feminism explicitly woven into your education, like did you study the history of it or have a policy of reading equal numbers of male and female writers, anything like that? Tell me how to achieve your feminist wonderland.

Last question first: A shitload of work. There's no real magic bullet. People talk about how it had to do with ~are naturally egalitarian culture~ but that's at the very best a vast exaggeration; the Redstockings, the feminist after them and finally the Womens List, which is honestly a fantastic and long topic but basically boiled down to the women on the left organizing the rest to demand equal political power to men were the big turning points. (the last especially, when I wake up tomorrow I'll look for some english language material if you wanner)

There's a lot of active groups all the way down the grade school/primary school level from the women/girls themselves and especially now in the age of social media there's a shitload of incredible women that are constantly on the ball about this.

Education; well, just like worldwide teaching is a female dominated profession and the majority of educated women in Iceland being feminist means there's a lot of focus by the teachers on it. The educational materials themselves are probably not the real reason and I can't remember there being a specifically feminist course at any point, though that keeps improving with time. Feminism was definitely part of social studies though.

There's always more battles left though and we've always been the most American Nordic country so we've been looking over to the US and we've seen just how easily we can lose the progress we've made, so there's been a lot of work done recently to shore things up, change archaic laws and poo poo.

also lol for this discussion: as viewing the pornographic material in a public setting would count as distributing it, it would be totally illegal here

(i think that was the right article to copy but im super tired)

Deceitful Penguin fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Jan 17, 2017

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 07:44

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

it seems to me that a buncha people think that watching poo poo in public is a private activity and therefore can't be policed?

This seems kinda backward to me? If you're doing it in what is absolutely a public space, why isn't it my business?

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 07:51

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

In which case we're left with the point that apparently we should respect this freedom of expressing their complete and utter contempt for women and I gotta ask

Why should we?

Like, even if it was two dudes really getting it on, it still makes me wonder why you don't have more respect for your fellow passengers than watching hardcore poo poo in public.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 07:54

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Argentum posted:

good luck i dont have a dick
liberal feminism 101: everyone who disagrees with me must be a man and i must make violent threats against them to assert my dominance

why are you spying on other people's smartphones, you creep

lol im second gen as gently caress and as far from liberal you can get this side of the gulag

And I'm what, are you supposed to then just pointedly stare at the ceiling in order to avoid the video? Are you so inured to pornography it doesn't draw you attention and it's just normal to see it for you in a public setting?

OwlFancier posted:

It is possible to expect privacy in a public space, I assume you would think it objectionable if someone started reading and commenting on your text messages on the bus, for example. People have personal space even in public.

They aren't being private about it though, are they? In a crowded setting like that, privacy goes both ways; if they absolutely need to watch pornography in a public setting, they could do it in such a way that no-one would know.

They don't, though, do they? And then you have to decide if it's simply apathy/entitlement or actively and willfully malicious and tbh neither are particularly good things to defend

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 08:00

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

She isn't grabbing his hand and looking at it though, she happens to notice it because the bus is crowded. Also you're only talking about the specific instance there when we're talking about it from the example in a more general sense, like the article I linked.

To repeat; if you want to keep your viewing a secret, you absolutely can. Tilt yourself to the side, keep it closer to you, et cetera.

At the very best, we're dealing here with apathy; i.e. he doesn't give a poo poo if the other person sees it or not. Tied into that would be entitlement where you think it's ok and cool to look at something that is very much a personal/private thing in a public setting without considering whatsoever the effect it might have on others.

Then you have the situations the article and others here have mentioned where it's actively malicious and I feel like you want to distinguish between them and I don't particularly see the point. Yes, one of them is worse but so what? In both cases they involve pornography in a public setting and that's that.

If you feel like people have some sorta intrinsic right to do things that completely disregard others feelings or whatever then you can just say that and move on I guess.

But realize: that is what you are doing and that is why people do not think this is cool

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 08:09

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Argentum posted:

this may blow your tiny mind but women look at porn too, and it is common for this to happen in non-protestant (non-american) societies from my actual life experience. i've seen old ladies lookin at dicks and reading erotica plenty in public. there's a huge difference between holding up a tablet in your face showing off some anime titties (harassment) and just minding your own business on the bus (not harassment)

Yeah, uhhhh, I don't know about old ladies but sure there is a lot more of people accepting depictions of sexuality outside some parts of the world, sure

that isn't always great though because what they're often ok with is just the objectification of women and not just liking that porn

And reading is very, very different from watching, after all, isn't the book always better :v:

Chelb posted:

I can think of a few reasons why a man might decide to look at porn in a public, crowded setting that are different from why a woman might want to - one big one being that women don't generally look at pornography expecting to discomfort or harass the people near them.

go on, give us some more

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 08:13

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Argentum posted:

there's a huge different between physically whipping your genitals out and beating off vs. looking at a picture on a smartphone which happens to make the person next to you angry or upset
looking at anime titties on public transportation is certainly weird but I wouldn't say it's the mark of an objectively bad person, just somebody who's a little self-minded or has bad social skills. there ain't nothing wrong with being weird. i save my angry energy for people who actually endanger others, and there is no shortage of that in 2017.

how is this not enabling bad behaviour and reinforcing their status as outsider? aren't you then doing them a favour by pointing out that the prevalent values of society and especially those on the side of angels frown upon open displays of pornography in a public setting

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 08:22

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Chelb posted:

Well, there are definitely power dynamics involved. Men feel more comfortable and secure doing things like that because they so often get away with it; there's a power in breaking social standards or invading boundaries without consequence, and it's a power men often use.

that's a good point, I'm glad I astked

Chelb posted:

oh man i love daft p-

oh. oh no

what are you sayin' I'm sad lookin' or something???

:bahgawd:

or is it sad seeing LB pining after me and unable to get it across in words? If only he would tell me "hi ur prety" and charm me with his eloquent prose~

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 08:39

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

stone cold posted:

I think that's precisely the sort of issue we're facing right now, such as with the women's march on Washington, where we are seeing certain white feminists refusing to cede ground to more POC women in leadership roles, and feeling threatened at having their racism called out. On the other hand, I'm glad to see this critique and to see people speak out against these racial issues. Fascinating stuff!

I don't know about right now, womanism isn't exactly some hip new thing just hitting the waves as we speak.

There's always been the problem of intersectionality in all left wing activism and feminism isn't any different in that regard, sadly.

BarbarianElephant posted:

There is someone in this thread who likes buying red text. I got mine for, like, two dumb posts. Nice to have money I guess.

I became an avid defender of Pedophilia in 3 posts, so I'm really hoping its just a lame mod/admin using they powers. Wouldn't be the first time tbh

also wait a minute whoaahhh, this time its been upgraded

ahahahaha, that's some salty rear end poo poo

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 20:30

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

stone cold posted:

I didn't say it just started, I said it was relevant to today and right now. I think you misread my post. Also, I think more and more people are acknowledging these issues than before.

Ahhh, ok. Sorry, this comes up a lot here because in many ways racial/ethnic issues are not part of the official feminist discourse in the Nordics and there's surprisingly many Icelandic feminists who are completely unaware of a lot of the theoretical framework which we operate in now was created as a response to the white hegemony within early feminism.

its rather reflexive at this point

# ¿ Jan 17, 2017 20:44

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Lead out in cuffs posted:

That or the PoC thread. And ugh, they really do feel kinda low-effort.

Yeah, mine is too much; if any of that poo poo was true, I'd be banned already, so a moments thought shows it to be nonsense.

Lead out in cuffs posted:

My experience of Sweden was that it was pretty far ahead of most of the rest of the world on feminist issues (e.g. the laws on family leave and child care come to mind), but hoo boy was there a chunk of the population with some pretty hosed up and dated views on race and immigration.

It's just an issue that mostly wasn't relevant for a long time and so many people have never had to confront it. There's some advocates now for muslim voices but when it comes to racial issues, there's sadly none of the organized efforts you see in the US.

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Since we're talking internationally, it's pretty interesting to look up representation of women in parliaments. Nordic countries are pretty high up there, as are South Africa and Mexico (the former since Apartheid ended, the latter over the last ten years), as well as a handful of other African and Latin American countries.

And then you go further down the list. Much, much further. Did you know that Saudi Arabia has greater representation of women in their national legislative body than the United States?

Now you do.

Whoah now, we all know that USA=BAD but lets no go so far as to think Saudi Arabia can do anything good whatsoever; that's not a legislative body, it's an "Consultative Assembly" which basically means they can make suggestions that maybe the King will decide to enact.

flashman posted:

The model of Nordic socialism will lend itself naturally to anti immigration sentiments while uplifting the status of other groups within the accepted ethnic groups whom are marginalized in other Western nations.

Why naturally? Because of a lack of ethnic heterogeneity? Because that has been changing for a pretty long while now, with most of them having at least a notable portion of their population be foreign born.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 01:12

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Maternal and Paternal leave are honestly such basic human rights to me that the lack of it was one of the main reasons I never wanted to move to the US. (Which made things complex with my American ex)
The lack of it damages the lives of both parents and the children! I mean, how the heck is that not obvious??

And paternal leave is also important in so far as it means that hiring men isn't more advantageous because ~dey wont get pregnant like those women~ here because they're required to take it or lose it and so they of course use it, with the situation being the same afaik in the rest of the Nordics (with some more transferable time too)

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 03:04

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Yeah even if we had parental leave it would have to be mandatory or it would effectively not exist because there would be a stigma against taking it. But that runs aground on our culture, with the "nobody's gonna tell ME what to do!" and the "puritan work ethic" bullshit. All time you don't spend working or developing ways to do more work is wasted and tantamount to theft. You can find goons espousing these values all over the forums without even being aware of what they're saying.

We're no less protestant than the US but we didn't have witch-hunts against labour oriented political parties so things are much better here on that front.

The reason it is mandatory is absolutely to avoid what you're talking about; these types exist here as well, though they're not as powerful or loud as in the US.

Not a Step posted:

My wife's area of expertise is childhood brain development, and the first few years are so incredibly important for brain development and parent attachment/linguistic environment are so important to that development that its insane America forces parents to go back to work so early. The word gap is a very real problem that affects the achievement trajectory of kids for their entire life. You don't even really need specialized parenting skills, literally just being around the kid and talking about anything or nothing promotes language acquisition and brain development. Read trash romance novels to your kid, whatever, it all works. The lack of maternal/paternal leave and failure to foster strong early childhood environments in America does more to create educational and achievement inequalities than almost anything else. Yeah our public school system is also falling apart, but kids from secure households with strong attachment and language exposure develop a lot of resilience to lovely schools and can succeed in spite of their education system.

Universal Pre-K is a step forward here but doesn't substitute for parent involvement. Even the most well intentioned pre-K programs (which is what I did for awhile) can't match the one on one development of the family. Its absurd that America doesn't invest in its future with universal parent leave (followed by universal Pre-K).

Theres also the fact that infant/toddler care is an extremely inelastic expense for families that can't rely on one parent quitting work or close family. They don't have a choice, they *must* pay for childcare. This means many families may ultimately be realizing a loss if both parents continue working, because the cost of childcare may be more than their income. But of course they can't quit because good luck getting a career back on track after that. And this gets significantly shittier for single (mainly women) parents, who may be spending the bulk of their single parent income on child care that will be strictly inferior to their personal care, but must keep working anyways to keep health care coverage and assistance eligibility because of the dumb rear end Calvinism/Prosperity Gospel ingrained in this stupid country.

The whole American system of childcare and maternity is extremely hosed up and incredibly regressive. But its also par for the course for a country that still relies on private insurance and believes the free market is always right.

Goddamit I forgot to the do the post on the Womens list, but the reason why the nordic feminists in general battled for free kindergarden is that it enables women to more quickly re-enter the workforce and not have to be bound to a child.
It's of course subsidized by the government, because otherwise it quickly becomes a prohibitive expense.

Like, one of their figures once said that the universal kindergarden system and paternal/maternal leave was their biggest modern victories and from these two pillars grow a lot of the good thangs for nordic women.

And once they had been implemented, the public good was obvious, though this hasn't stopped right-wingers from of course trying to undermine it like everything good in the world.

also good to see the old left-wing circular firing squad getting some new work

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 04:42

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Nessa posted:

Are you registered for a Baby Box? I know they've been rolling out baby boxes in Canada this past year and I heard that Scotland will be getting the program too.

It's based on Finlands baby box system where each newborn gets a box filled with supplies for the new parents and the box can double as a crib. Finland has one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world.

It may not be directly related to feminism, but I think baby boxes are a great thing for new mothers, especially lower income ones who may not have all the supplies they need for proper newborn care.

I would think that something that supports mothers, which are to my general knowledge quite often women, would be very feminist indeed? It's one of the reasons we support the introduction of it here.

Not a Step posted:

Its utterly baffling that we don't invest more in childcare in America. The return on investment is incredibly good at all levels of society.

Well, no, I know exactly why we don't invest more in childcare. Idiots think it would undermine the mother/child bond if we made 'easy ways out' for them to 'abandon' their kid. Its the same idiot reasoning behind denying women's health services: the most disgusting kind of paternalism.

There really needs to be a serious reorientation of American society when it comes to the welfare system and poo poo but I don't know how that�s gonna happen right now.

Even here in Iceland it took women forming their own political party to kickstart things for the better. (though, yes, the left wing parties did involve women far more than the right wing ones and even mandated half, dad)

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 05:34

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

seiferguy posted:

Since gender equality in other countries was discussed, I'll talk about one I've worked with a bit. Japan probably has one of the worst patriarchal systems that disadvantages women in a developed country. Their politicians know this, and have recognized this as a problem, but the country itself is incredibly slow to realize the impact it has on society. : http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...r/#.WH-jOD8zXIU

The Japanese government at one point offered incentives to any company that promoted women into management positions. Not a single company took the offer. Apparently there were other stipulations that went along with it. Currently only about 9% of management positions in Japan as of 2015 were held by women. The government wants to hit 30% by 2020, but realizes that's highly unlikely. It created an old boys' club, and men are four times more likely to have to work more than 60 hours in a week than women. This in turn has created Karoshi (death by overwork) where workers just die at their job, or commit suicide from the stress of their job. It goes to show how much the patriarchy hurts men as well.

Oh hey it's the two big reasons why I decided not to further my education in Japanese!

Story: We visited a Japanese company and I get to talking with one of the women working there. She's actually been a philosophy undergrad like me (though her masters was in something else) and were getting it on fairly well when she had to go out and do her job.

which was making tea for those of us visiting. The masters educated woman was made to do tea for the men

When I talked to her about it afterwards she told me it was something she'd grown used to and was just happy she wasn't still working in Japan and that her Icelandic boyfriend was way cooler than her Japanese one.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Supporting egalitarian marriages and tearing down the patriarchy and toxic masculinity bullshit that prevents men from being equal partners is great and something I wholly support, but the woman will still be the one physically bearing the child and she'll still need time and accommodation for that. Maybe something like a year of mandatory parental leave for each parent, which the mom can use during her pregnancy or after as needed, and the dad can use anytime.

It is extremely important that both parents be forced to take a minimum amount of parental leave right away so there is no difference for either men or women. It's not only a matter of equality, but also means that there is no possibility for the man to skip out, which means that it is not better to hire men.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

I know some couples who are lucky enough to have good parental leaves at both their jobs alternate taking short chunks of time off, so neither has to fully put their careers on hold, although of course that won't be possible for all jobs. Flexibility in work hours would be a massive help - say mom does mornings at home, does the first few feedings and pumps to tide the kid over through the afternoon, then dad comes home and takes over while she goes off to work a half-day.

In general, this is how it is in the nordics and especially Scandinavia, where they have a much healthier work/life balance than most of the world. It's also the situation in much of Europe in general, though I'm only familiar with the situation in Germany.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

I support structured time off for childless workers and workers who need to handle non-childrearing related domestic support issues, but I think that's less a feminist thread discussion than a labor rights discussion. Somebody make that thread!

Labor rights are absolutely feminist issues; aside from the equal wage fight, the fight for female participation in union boards and childcare related issues (easy access to kindergarden for instance) there's also the fact that types of employment that are characterized as 'womens work' are chronically underpaid and funded.

One of the best speeches I've heard at a feminist event was when the head of the nurses union was making GBS threads on the doctors for not siding with them, only for them both to be shot at by the, first responders (translation?) union head in an epic speech for them sticking together against them because they weren't university educated, which made the nurses into great big hypocrites despite their valid complaints.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2017 18:17

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Not surprised, as literally anything having to do with women ends up being perceived as lower status if women are involved in it due to tha patriarchy; it's been happening here with doctors and it's already happened with nurses and yeah, midwives.

It used to be that "we should pay these educated professionals good wages" but as things have shifted I've been hearing the old garbage "oh they're in it to help people" which if true would involve them joining MSF or going to Cuba and is the same sorta poo poo you hear about lovely conditions for teachers or any other caretaker job.

I know this mostly from the teachers side, as both my parents were teachers and dad was in the union and they've literally banned teachers from striking now. So much for freedom from the so called party of 'independence'.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2017 19:57

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

I don't know what those words mean and I'm sure I would regret googling it, so I'm gonna guess "yes"

Pouring the Icelandic equivalent of a 40 down for a good poster

seiferguy posted:

I worked with one Japanese company that did business with mine awhile ago. They had one female engineer on the team. She was actually born in the US (parents were both Japanese), had attended a major US University, and moved to Japan to work there since she still had family ties. She was one of the most senior engineers there, and wanted a management job. She got told that was never going to happen, so she ended up quitting and moving back to the states and finding a job here.

Japan is such a loving bizarre shitshow when it comes to so many issues and gender issues is one of them; because pop cultural portrayals are often very female oriented and dominated, a buncha folks get fooled into thinking that they're way more socially aware than they are in reality and that they can adapt easily to society there when the reality is a lot harsher.

Like, I wish my country produced as much female made female oriented media on all levels, or really any other country did. But the flipside is that alongside that you have all sorts of cultural fuckups which show the deep and serious patriarchal culture that is so rooted I wouldn't even know where to start to deal with it.
(no im lying i do; it's in politics, then the beaurocracy and then business with quotas galore but lol that poo poo aint happenin)

stone cold posted:

Hey, comrades!

Just wanted to remind y'all that we're only two days out from the Women's March on Washington!

If you're not gonna be at the march, consider signing up for a sister march near you.

There are international marches as well, you can find them in the sister march link, and more details here.

Weird, haven't heard much about this through the grapevine. I wonder if they contacted the big orgs? Gonna advertise it anyhow.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2017 22:58

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

That's a pan-east asian thang though.

hosed up but true: if you are a woman and want to get ahead in society, China is probably your best bet, though peeps argue which flavour of China is better. (I'd say that business wise mainland is better and politically Formosa but folks disagree)

also got some more orgs and people I know involved in the march now I know about it; rustled up some folks to help organize it too

# ¿ Jan 19, 2017 23:54

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Hidden Figures is out in the US right? That movie isn't coming out for loving ages here unless we organize another effort to have it shown early like we did for Suffragette, so is it good?

DeusExMachinima posted:

Pffffft are you kidding? Hong Kong for the money (I guess that's mainland but one country/two systems) and Taiwan for the democracy. All day every day.

Pffffft, yeah, if you're already at least middle class/expat maybe. HK is still commonwealth enough, but even then I'd say that the mainland has a shitload more chances just because it's bigger. :v:

(HK is probably a very good mix though, because they haven't quite stamped out the British poo poo but they also have the few positives of the mainland)

DeusExMachinima posted:

But yeah I'd argue that native Asians are probably the most discriminatory in general as things stand in the modern day. Hooo boy do they have some interesting ideas about redheaded women in particular. They're the ultimate trophies. An Irish friend was a deparment manager at a well-known aerospace manufacturer back in Europe and was emphatically not allowed to give any instructions at all to the Korean team. When she did, the Koreans would actually look at her male subordinates for a final yea or nay while she was still in the room.

There's also a persistent belief over there that Koreans/Japanese/whoever are the superior people group. And that's not racist you see. It's just science. Why haven't other scientists confirmed these findings? Well obviously you can't expect them to be as perceptive as scientists who are Korean/Japanese/whoever! For some reason this attitude is somewhat less common in China.

Nihonjinron was like, for the longest time, some of my fav poo poo. A friend of mine now living there with his wife sometimes translates crazy poo poo and sends me 'cause he knows I love it.

And every country from Thailand to Japan has it going on, though it's heaviest in Japan/Korea/China afaik (though I haven't really studied SE-Asia to any depth)

EDIT: Lol relevant; Chinathread delivers a pretty decent documentary on the subject of Chinese Women:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QarOjjKfseo

Deceitful Penguin fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jan 20, 2017

# ¿ Jan 20, 2017 05:56

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Arright, our sister march starts in 20 minutes, good god yo, awful weather. Still, hoping some folks will show up.

Rakosi posted:

I can do a massive effortpost about women and men in Japan from like the 1800's to the modern day if anyone is interested in that derail. Doing a Japan and race thing in Negrotown at the moment

Maybe just link it if you have a fear of derails, though I always say
:justpost:

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 14:42

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

GlyphGryph posted:

Anyone who attends the Womans March today, I beg you, if you can, to attend in a meaningful way and not simply be an extra face. This is not the sort an event with any inherent value - like many marches, it is about opportunity. If you arent actively recruiting for an organization dedicated to lasting pressure and real change, then at let yourself be recruited while you are there, and enable the same to happen for others - dont just be a protest tourist, quickly forgotten. Use this as an opportunity to add momentum.

I am sure many of the regular posters are already involved with actual relevant movements so this is mostly for lurkers and the like.

does carrying pallets count as meaningful?

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 22:03

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

But yea, about 400 people showed up for the march, despite the terrible weather. Chants and whatnot ensued. Police helped by keeping traffic from interrupting the march. Americans all pleasantly surprised by that. Good mix of natives/Americans and men/women made speeches though I woulda loved more POC.
A lotta folks I knew were there. Might grab some media pics if y'all want.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 22:14

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 00:25

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Libluini posted:

You are not very good at reading, then.

They're bad at many things, no doubt.

So after the anti-fascists potluck and solidarity WMoW, there's been a lot of talk about how to proceed. The things that I've found very interesting is that it turns out there was a shitload of women out there who wanted to participate in actions with other organizations but simply didn't know they were even active. Most of them were politically aware but uhh, not in the social activist circles that are mostly active here in Iceland.

Do any of you have experience getting the word out about activities/groups to more marginalized people?

# ¿ Jan 22, 2017 15:58

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)