Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Talmonis posted:

The world is in for a very bad time, if history is any indication.

The tide broke and rolled back, if you will.

It's almost as if reform within the system doesn't work when the system is misogynist.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 20:45

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 08:00

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

the trump tutelage posted:

Doesn't this presuppose that there's such a thing as a consensus amongst women about the label, that there are clear boundaries that can be policed, that someone has the authority to police them, that women have a special access to truth and knowledge, or that such a thing as a mode of thinking confers a label to be earned?

Trying to address feminism from the perspective of male insecurity never makes any sense, and everyone should just ignore that rear end in a top hat.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 21:05

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

the trump tutelage posted:

Can you go into more detail about this? I'm not savvy enough with the discussions surrounding feminism to get what it means to discuss feminism from that perspective. I mean I kind of get it, but not really -- the whole idea of men interpreting feminism as an attack on men / centring men in feminist discussion?

No, icantfindaname. He came in whining about something not based in real feminist discussion, but his own insecurities as a man. It has no place in a discussion of feminism. It does not contribute to the conversation. It isn't even really about feminism.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 21:11

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

icantfindaname posted:

I asked a serious question? I'm glad to hear that most feminists don't conceive of allies as working that way

What's important for men in feminism isn't the labels you choose to use, it's your actions.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 21:42

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

A big thing well-meaning men will do is brag that they do "anything their SO asks." Which sounds nice, but it's already an unequal division of labor because now only one person is looking at the house and taking stock of what needs to be done.

As a guy, I legitimately think most men - including myself - have no idea how to do this. It's just not something that we were taught how to do growing up, and without that knowledge a lot of men don't even realize it's not something they're doing. How would they? It's never been an issue, and if men also don't have the same standards for how a house should be cleaned you get the "it doesn't seem dirty to me" issue. Boys don't grow up constantly being told that it's work they need to know how to do like girls are, and they don't grow up seeing other men take care of it. It takes a lot of time to learn, there's a definite curve. Also, having had guy roommates, it's not like things get more evenly divided with men. poo poo just doesn't get taken care of as well. It's one of those places where we're straight up not preparing men for the real world by what we tell boys - or don't tell them, or don't even know we're telling them.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 23:27

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

silence_kit posted:

Just lol if you think this on this website. This is why the cries of 'educate thyself' in this thread are so out of place and unlike every other topic on this forum.

Instead of the thinly veiled passive aggressive chorus of 'educate yourself!' whenever the opinions/questions Are Not Right, this thread probably should put a creed stating the opinions posters must have and questions they must not ask into the opening post that posters in this thread have to swear to to be able to post in this thread. If a poster in the thread trespasses against the creed, they get probated.

Since you're just in here to whine about The Bad Evil Thread Hivemind, I'm going to probate you the next time you post something like this. Feel free to whine about it in QCS though.

Edit: Also you don't have PMs but let me know if you want your red text erased, because that's a particularly insane one.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 00:41

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Black Baby Goku posted:

What exactly is the advantage of someone with privilege to lose said privilege or give it up, even losing like 1% of their privilege?

Aside from the moral argument: Because not everyone in your life is going to be in the same race/gender/socioeconomic bracket. So even if you benefit from your privilege, people you care about are affected negatively by it. This has two immediate impacts: 1. The lives of people who care about are worse and 2. you will end up having to help care for those people. If a friend of yours can't find a place to live because they're black and gay, and they crash on your couch, that has a direct impact (economic and otherwise) on your life. If your wife or girlfriend can't get good medical care because her insurance doesn't cover an issue specific to women, that has a direct economic impact on your life. If your mother or daughter or sister makes less money because of her gender, that will have an economic impact on your life, direct or indirect. Privilege is only unequivocally beneficial if you surround yourself ONLY with others in your demographic: hence the rise of movements like Men Going Their Own Way, who seek to do that.

You also have to deal with the costs of accessing that privilege. Men lose access to male privilege, in whole or in part, if they don't act in the ways that men are supposed to act, under the same societal rules that enforce their privilege. If a man chooses to take a traditionally female job, like teaching, he loses economic power and privilege. Just as one example. But fighting back against the systems that enforce that privilege also fights back against the costs associated with accessing that privilege.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 01:27

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

I actually think it's a question that needs to be addressed: why should men give up a situation that benefits them? It's important to make men understand that they do not benefit from it in the ways they believe.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 01:30

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Black Baby Goku posted:

I actually read this and it makes sense to me, a left leaning man. However I think the trouble lies in convincing anyone anything center or further right, to give up privilege they may have. One of the reasons trump won, in my opinion.

Yes. That's my point, though. They don't benefit from it in the way they think. That's what we need to demonstrate.

For instance, there are very few households, however conservative, that have one income, which is male. That is no longer a common situation. And if you are a two-income household, with a man and a woman, that woman's earning potential is lower. Raising women's wages doesn't automatically lower men's. If you fight wage discrimination, you raise the income of that entire household. It doesn't zero out. If you have a household that depends on a woman's income, because the man is retired or unemployed or she just earns more of the household income, wage discrimination is hurting the earning power of that whole household. That's why discrimination against women relies on a social narrative that no longer exists. Once you acknowledge economic reality, discrimination against women becomes even more irrational. Misogyny isn't to the benefit of men. It hurts them, in directly measurable economic ways. Not getting into the negative impacts on their ability to have healthy, happy relationships. Misogyny does economic harm to men. That's an important argument to make, loudly and clearly, and very often.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 01:35

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

stone cold posted:

FAU, no offense or mod sass meant, but can we talk about women's issues for like at least a few pages before we start talking about men?

Yes, absolutely. I've made the points I wanted to make about how "male privilege" hurts men, so someone can just quote them any time someone goes "what about men." I'll drop it.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 01:38

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Hi, I made a thread for discussing the impacts of patriarchy and so forth on men, for men's roles in feminism, etc. so those issues can stop derailing this thread.

Please take all this discussion to the other thread so men don't take over a thread about feminism, which is decidedly not feminist!

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3803186

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 01:47

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Hush and shush.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 01:50

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

BarbarianElephant posted:

I think most of these strangely phrased questions are "trick questions" designed to elicit something from feminists that could be twisted to be anti-male.

However, I do think that we are definitely going to have a thread largely oriented to male feelings about feminism, because this is such a male-dominated site. I don't mind so much. Open-minded male insights into gender issues can be interesting.

That's why I made one, so it doesn't have to be this thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3803186

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 16:14

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

blowfish posted:

And given that you are trying to educate an insufficiently feminist world to be more feminist, doing his homework for him is exactly what you need to do.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 21:13

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Hexmage-SA posted:

Why don't we go door-to-door giving everybody free copies of a Feminism 101 book so everyone can self-educate, then?

I can just imagine a Christian missionary throwing a box of Bibles into the middle of a village somewhere and yelling "read this poo poo and don't ask me any questions, fuckers!"

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 21:41

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

If You Won�t Educate Me How Can I Learn

Whilst seemingly simple on the surface, there is some intertwining subtext embedded within this one. First of all, you�re placing responsibility for your education back onto the marginalized person. As they are obviously engaged with these issues, and care about them, they are hopeful that privileged people may one day start listening and taking on board what they have to say. By placing responsibility to educate in their hands, you tug at this yearning. You may even successfully make many question themselves and their selfish expectations that you utilize the hundreds upon hundreds of resources on the subject available to you as a privileged person! After all, anyone who expects you to be able to research a topic by yourself also clearly expects you to be far more of a functioning adult than you�re acting! By insisting you can only learn if they right then and there sacrifice further hours of time going over the same ground they have so often in the past, you may also make them give up and go away altogether, enabling you to win by default. But further, you give the impression that you really want to learn, but they�re holding you back! That�s right, using this tactic you can suggest that full understanding is what you crave � you want to be a better, more connected and compassionate person � but it�s not your fault! Nobody ever gave you the education! And now that someone is here who is so obviously qualified, they�re denying you your privilege given right to have everything you want handed to you on a platter! Which brings us to another key component of this argument � it is very important, in conversations with Marginalized people to constantly remind them that you are, indeed, privileged. By demonstrating your belief that marginalized people should immediately gratify your every whim, you remind them of their place in society. After all, they�re not there to live lives free of discrimination and in happy, independent and fulfilling ways! Please! marginalized people exist for your curiosity and to make you generally feel better about your place in society and don�t let them forget it!
Point one to you!

If You Cared About These Matters You�d Be Willing To Educate Me

This is the natural follow-up to the above argument, although it can also be used independently. You see, often in these discussions a marginalized person will tell you it�s not their responsibility to educate you. This is because marginalized people believe that they have other priorities in life, like working and studying and being with their families for example. Clearly, they are laboring under a misconception � as a privileged person you have far more right to their time than they do, and besides, don�t they want to make the world a better place? Isn�t that why they alerted you to the fact you were being offensive in the first place? Well, now clearly your education is their responsibility!

By placing this burden of responsibility onto them you remind them of just how daunting a task that is and how their lives are constantly being monopolized by the privileged, even in something that should be empowering to them, like deconstructing discrimination.You trivialize their lives, needs, interests and obligations by suggesting they should be spending all of their time and energy in engaging with clueless Privileged People�, putting in hours and hours of effort in repeating the exact same thing they�ve already said three thousand times to three thousand other privileged people in their past. And furthermore, you remind them that, if they really cared about their own issues, they�d willingly take that task on! Surely it�s a small price to pay to change people�s minds? Well, you want them to think that, but of course it isn�t After all, most of the conversations they have with Privileged People� often feel to them like beating their heads repeatedly against a brick wall embedded with rusty spikes. Which is entirely the point. Keep them worn out and exhausted and maybe they�ll just go away.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 21:41

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

I wonder why this isn't happening in my "men's issues in a feminist lens" thread? Oh right, because that is a space explicitly set out for men, so men don't feel threatened by it and freak the hell out and come in to be like BUT WHAT ABOUT MY VIEWPOINTS because they see women talking, women who might even be happy to talk to each other without them around.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 21:44

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

wateroverfire posted:

Nah.

It's because the men's thread is a joke constructed to make the women's thread more agreeable for several extremely vocal and sensitive activist posters.

But it's those very vocal posters who, by reacting to disagreement by lashing out or being dismissive, derail the thread by being antisocial. No one is required to answer or acknowledge a question they don't want to spend time on. No one has a gun to anyone's head forcing them to dive into a slap fight about whether a poster is trolling or not. No one is required to get self righteous about their "safe space" and how anyone who isn't with their program should GTFO - a tack that is 100% guaranteed to bring the thread to a screeching halt because nothing draws attention like blood in the water. If posters want to seriously discuss feminist issues, all they have to do is . You're a mod and you've been on the internet before [citation needed?] and I know I'm not saying anything you don't already know.

But I am saying something I think you don't want to hear. The problem posters are here, being encouraged by you, rather than in the men's thread. And that's why it continually turns to poo poo while the men's thread stays unserious but pretty civil and productive as these things go.

tldr - there are posters who are on the "right" side of the thread's politics while being on the way wrong side of being good posters and the problem is that they're terrible posters and not that they don't have a safe enough space.

Yep, that's definitely the problem. Not people coming in just to whine about ~~~the hivemind~~~ and post passive-aggressive poo poo like this:

wateroverfire posted:

Almost certainly for the best.

And contribute nothing. So I think I'll side with the people I saw making long, interesting effortposts about the thread subject, even if I disagree with them. And the thread I made, which exists because I think they're legitimate issues to discuss, will continue to exist. And maybe some women will be able to get a word in edgewise in discussing feminism.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:18

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

^^ I enjoy the contrast of the above two red titles. Something Awful, ladies and gentlemen.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:42

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

blowfish posted:

This. Unless the OP begins with something like "NOOBS GET THE gently caress OUT" I assume every SA thread is for people of all levels of expertise regarding the topic and will get repeats of the basic questions every three pages. And unless a thread for noobs is linked immediately after I'd think the OP is an rear end.

"Read the OP" has been a consistent standard in threads on SA for more than a decade, and you've only posted in this thread to say how having to read stuff is a dumb waste of time and people are obligated to make things even easier for you than the OP. Which like... if you're demanding to be educated, it's there. The "this is what we're assuming people have read" material is there. And you don't even have to read all of it. But it's also, and I want to emphasize this, okay to read a thread without posting in it. You can read a thread for a while, and get a sense for it, and learn some things, and then post in it. But your first post in this thread was to come in and say that reading was hard. So I dunno, maybe just follow the SA-standard "does my post contribute anything" rule?

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:55

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Good Canadian Boy posted:

I can understand how women do not want trans women to speak for them as it is entirely dependant on what point they have transitioned for their life experience to be similar enough for them to have similar experiences. If one is socialized male until 18 they have developed with male privilege and transitioning to a woman does not change that.

This is an assumption I see a lot, but it's not really true. Trans people face other issues and forms of discrimination. There's not a moment where you flip the "man/woman" switch and suddenly you go from having cis male privilege to not having it. This isn't a matter of whether it's consistent with feminist principles, your misconceptions about the trans experience are just inaccurate.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:39

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Uncle Jam posted:

I have a massive problem keeping any women in my department for any length of time. Right now we have about 20 people and its all male.
My last 4 hires have been women but none of them stay more than a year and a half. My thought was that the gender make up of the department has something to do with it, so I try to introduce the new hires to women outside of our department, introduce them to the people leading the internal women's org, etc, but it still doesn't seem to help much.

I vastly prefer the idea diversity that appears when a project is multi-gendered but I'm not sure how to improve the environment enough so that we have the opportunity to have two women on staff at the same time.

Have you had a chance to ask them why they leave? Exit interviews or anything?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:53

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Good Canadian Boy posted:

In addition if a goal is to remove all gender norms. Outside of genitalia and hormones I do not understand how someone can then identify as boy or girl. And to just toss this in as well since it shares the same ideas - I don't understand how gender fluidity works without gender norms either.

But who is arguing for this? Who is arguing for a world in which nobody expresses gender?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:58

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

botany posted:

lmao if you think that's from them.

Popular theory is that it's like three or four lurkers who spend hundreds of dollars, but we have no way of knowing because lmao. It's like how the people who vote on threads are never the people who post in them.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 19:01

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

The core tenet of radical feminism, the one thing that defines what makes it "radical" as opposed to just "feminism" is the belief that reform within existing societal/cultural structures is impossible. Those systems reinforce male dominance by their nature and purpose. That's the one blanket statement you can make about radical feminism. Everything else depends on the individual or group.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 19:41

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

stone cold posted:

Right! Exactly!

Hence why the discussion that radfems are transphobic isn't necessarily productive.

Yeah. I just wanted to throw that out there for people, because I've seen discussions of "what is radical" go in circles for hours.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 19:46

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

OwlFancier posted:

Well, that was nice while it lasted.

Thread's fine. Sometimes there will be trolls.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 22:10

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Philip Rivers posted:

Residual male privilege or whatever isn't really a thing, but it also is. Like there's no doubt in my mind I wouldn't have been a physics major if I were AFAB or had even transitioned earlier in life, so part of me is sympathetic to that argument, but at the same time no number of physics degrees is gonna stop men from being patronizing when we talk science.

This is interesting, if you want to expand on it. Did you feel at the time like you had those privileges, or were giving them up? Also, what is AFAB?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 22:13

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

OwlFancier posted:

I mean the other one, I was hoping to discuss that topic a little more with some of the less tiresome people in the thread and I'm not sure it would be suitable for here.

If you continue that discussion here I will scream.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 22:13

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Gloryhold It! posted:

Afab is assigned female at birth. Basically saying that you were declared a girl by a doctor

Ah, okay. I've only heard that phrasing used in discussing intersex people, do people just use it to refer to cis women?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 22:15

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

HopperUK posted:

I had a male doctor once tell me very seriously that women entering the profession would bring down wages and prestige. He framed it as 'women are ruining this' rather than 'it's hosed up that this will happen', too. What a fuckwit.

Didn't the opposite happen with computer programming, too? Back at the start it was often done by women and considered menial and boring admin work. Then the men got hold of it.

Yep. And NPR did the story!

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 12:54

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

This just in: goons do not know what to do with a baby or how to be honest with their relatives.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 19:12

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Things we have learned from feminism threads: Gonna are socially awkward; live in messy houses.

Male goon, upon being asked to clean: *sets down the controller, runs away*

Female goon, upon being asked to hold a baby: *sets down the baby, runs away*

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 19:22

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Jenner posted:

Funnily enough, both cleaning and taking care of children are things that men have the luxury of not having to do! Women don't have that luxury! It's unreasonable for a man to flee from housework because that is immature and silly.

No no, these are 100 percent valid points. It's just funny. It's a funny story. Somebody handed you a baby, so you put the baby on the floor. That's funny, regardless of how the situation stands in the context of wider gender issues.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 20:14

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

I don't know a whole lot about South Korean gender politics, but here's an interesting article.

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201612300057.html

quote:

South Korea's government closed its website that drew fury for showing the number of women in childbearing age by each city district and region.

The Ministry of the Interior's website featuring the pink birth map remained closed on Friday, a day after its launch, showing instead a notice that the site is undergoing corrections to reflect public opinion.

The website had gone offline after just a few hours following criticism the government is trying to shame women for not having babies. Some said the government treated the birth rate issue as concerning only women, pointing out that no picture of men was used on the website.

Using pink as the main color, the site contained information on birth rates, benefits from local governments on child rearing, average marriage age and other data. On top of the website, it showed a picture of a woman kissing a little girl.

Got this from the excellent Twitter feed of NPR reporter Elise Hu, whom I really enjoy.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 20:48

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Talmonis posted:

as it's illegal to just fire you for it (like they would happily do otherwise)

Depends on the job and the state, but for the vast majority of American women, they can just fire you for something else, or just straight-up without cause. Job security isn't a real thing anymore.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 20:53

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Part of the problem of the sex work conversation is that we don't really have a way of reconciling sexual consent with work, mentally or culturally. Every single one of us can name days, probably a lot of them, when we didn't want to go to work. But we had to go, because we wanted to pay the rent. And that brings up a lot of really difficult consent questions I don't think most people know how to answer. I think that's one of the reasons we stumble around the conversation.

Edit: That's not getting into sex slavery, etc. I'm talking about the by-default coercive nature of employment, but still assuming at least "voluntary" employment to the level of any job.

# ¿ Jan 1, 2017 00:41

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Philip Rivers posted:

Small pet peeve: it's not "the" patriarchy, it's just patriarchy. Patriarchy is not a unitary object of analysis, it's a social condition that manifests in a multiplicity of ways. There isn't "a" white supremacy, and there isn't "a" patriarchy.

Both are valid. You're discussing patriarchy, the idea of a society ruled by men, and the patriarchy, the group of men and system in question. It's the same thing with discussing oligarchy vs. the oligarchy.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 22:12

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Calibanibal posted:

patriarchy is rule by fathers. this is an important distinction

Only in a very literal sense.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2017 12:40

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 08:00

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Who What Now posted:

Hillary gave a speech about the economy in Detroit and was never once openly hostile to anyone in our area, what the actual gently caress are you talking about? Why would you think it'd be cool to make blatant lies about a woman in the feminism thread?

This isn't the thread to rehash the election, but there are plenty of stories about the Clinton campaign mishandling basic aspects of state-level campaigning, especially in the Midwest. Nobody is making poo poo up, they're just referencing stuff that came out post-election. Turns out losing candidates usually made mistakes.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2017 17:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)