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icantfindaname posted:why can't I be a feminist as a man, and instead have to be an "ally"? (i'm assuming that's hiw this works) It's fine for men to be feminists. The most fanatical feminist I know is a man.
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Dec 27, 2016 18:51
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the white hand posted:Why get upset about it? I'd like to think of myself as a feminist but if women don't think I deserve the title I'm going to consider myself rather than arguing. "Not deserving the title of feminist" sounds more like the sort of things anti-feminists think feminists think than what feminists actually think. Most feminists want everyone to be feminist. It's a practical thing rather than a medal to be pinned on a person. It's about believing in the equality of all genders. It's more complex than that at the theory level, but you don't need to be an academic to be a feminist. IMHO, making it out to be an exclusive club sets it up to be some sort of strawman about "feminists don't care about men or men's issues."
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Dec 27, 2016 21:06
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public Do you feel this makes you a good "feminist ally", to use your preferred terminology? It seems like you are getting a bit upset that feminists use different terminology than you first assumed. Wouldn't it be easier to just say "In that case, I'm proud to call myself a male feminist"?
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Dec 27, 2016 22:52
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blackguy32 posted:Good feminist allies at least put in effort to research stuff regarding feminism instead of bogging people down with a hundred questions that have answers easily available. What tends to happen is people exhaust themselves answering questions that never stop coming. I think most of these strangely phrased questions are "trick questions" designed to elicit something from feminists that could be twisted to be anti-male. However, I do think that we are definitely going to have a thread largely oriented to male feelings about feminism, because this is such a male-dominated site. I don't mind so much. Open-minded male insights into gender issues can be interesting.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:12
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One of the reasons that I really enjoy online debate is the "permission" to talk about things as aggressively as men do. I would never talk so aggressively in real life as I do here - it would make me very unpopular. And I would simply be too scared to bluntly disagree with some huge guy who was frothing with rage about politics. However men have recently found some effective ways of using online methods to terrify and repress women online much as in real life (the hordes of GamerGate trolls and the alt-right.)
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Dec 29, 2016 03:27
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There must BE some elderly feminists who are transphobic relics, but the younger, relevant crowd are all completely trans-positive. So I always feel it is not a well-intentioned argument when anti-feminists try to bring on the "But don't you feminists hate trans-people? Huh? OWNED! You aren't as tolerant as you think you are, you transphobic horrible people!" just as all the feminists under 50 are saying "That's not right, we completely welcome trans-women as women in our movement."
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Dec 29, 2016 15:23
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blackguy32 posted:I disagree with this because even younger feminists have their racism issues, it is also likely that they could have anti transsexual issues. Individuals can always have racism issues. Feminism as a whole is very much linked to the whole movement that conservatives deride as "social justice warriors" in which people care deeply about any number of linked social justice issues that don't necessarily affect them personally (women's rights, gay rights, trans rights, anti-racism, disabled rights.) Including women of colour in feminism is a priority for most feminists right now. That doesn't mean there aren't some feminists who are massive racists. It's a big movement. .
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Dec 29, 2016 16:05
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Gloryhold It! posted:There are absolutely young "feminists" who are transphobic as gently caress. I use the scare quotes because I don't believe that you can honestly be a feminist while denying that some women are actually goddamn women. The main thing I've seen about trans issues in feminism is their unique and valuable insight into how men treat men and women differently. It's very eye-opening how transmen often feel that their voices are suddenly listened to with more attention in contexts like the boardroom after their transition, and transwomen sometimes feel like they get taken less seriously after transition.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:09
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Kelp Me! posted:Like, the last few times I've been over there for meetings, the lone woman on the project team (who has the same position as 2 men on the team) is always the one getting coffee for everyone, making sure everyone has a pen if needed, etc. How do I combat that in my own company, and what can I do when it's not my company/team? I don't know if it's my place to try to explain to a different employees about their ingrained gender biases. Lead by example I guess? I dunno. It's really pretty mind-boggling how even an uninformed dumbguy like me can see subtle misogynistic poo poo like that everywhere I look when I actually pay attention to it. I'm a female coder and was one of the higher paid employees at the business that I used to work at. Once my boss was feeling kinda sexist and ordered me to make tea for the room. I did it with a grudging attitude because I was working on a coding problem. The secretary at our office rolled her eyes and told him "You know, that was the most expensive cup of tea you ever had!" And he didn't do it again. Not sure if there's any good advice there but I still find it funny.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:24
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If you are the woman prepping the documents, you can make sure your ideas are set off to best advantage.  Item 1: Jane's idea. Item 2: Expansion on Jane's idea. Item 3: Coffee and cake. Item 4: Joe's idea (oops, left it in the copier room, shall I go get it?)
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Dec 29, 2016 16:57
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Amused to Death posted:But the level of frequency and intensity are worlds apart(and it sometimes comes with a nice icing of condescension) I find this insight very valuable. This often comes up when women complain about something in the context of internet abuse. Something like "Everyone gets flamed on the internet! Grow a thicker skin or take a break from the internet!" Without realizing that one nasty message a day is *very* different than 500 vile, threatening messages every day.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:18
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Uncle Jam posted:I have a massive problem keeping any women in my department for any length of time. Right now we have about 20 people and its all male. This is a really interesting question. What is the general area of your business, if that isn't revealing too much about you? Have you conducted any exit interviews to try and get some feedback?
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Dec 29, 2016 17:54
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Eimi posted:How I address feminism now though is shaped by the older feminist view though. I will always feel like an intruder, that I don't belong, that I'm not a "real" woman, and worth less. Hell I prefer woman but I don't even feel like I "deserve" to say I'm a lesbian. I don't know how to address that. I feel that you may be expressing feelings of self-hatred linked to depression by seeking out media that validates your negative thoughts. A matter to work over with your therapist. If you read newer trans-positive feminist writing it should be more positive. Remember that the transphobic feminist stuff is quite obsolete. It's like reading old medical manuals where being gay is a psychological disorder. They sincerely believed it back then, but they were wrong and it is obsolete.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:28
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FactsAreUseless posted:Popular theory is that it's like three or four lurkers who spend hundreds of dollars, but we have no way of knowing because lmao. It's like how the people who vote on threads are never the people who post in them. I wonder how long it is before I've posted so often that I annoy someone and am not a whiny newbie baby anymore 
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Dec 29, 2016 19:13
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Eimi posted:Well I want to say thank you to both you and TinyBrontosaurus for how welcoming you have been. Aww, thanks 
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Dec 29, 2016 19:38
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Defenestration posted:This has been driving me insane since Bush. if you're white enough, male enough, wealthy enough, the system is designed for you to fail upward every time. Milo didn't *fail*, he backed the winning horse. It's interesting that after a certain level of wealth it is literally impossible to fail. It is much better to be $100 million in debt than have $500 in the bank.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:33
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Jenner posted:So I just crouched down, put the baby gently on the floor, and walked away. Please don't do this. If you don't want to visit the baby, just don't.
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Dec 30, 2016 18:59
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Babies are pretty loving delicate. If you put them on the floor they can't move away and they are in danger of getting stepped on, especially if as I assume this was a family party with lots of people around. [edit] Jenner posted:Obviously I should have just dumped the baby back into her arms or offloaded the baby onto someone else like the most delicate game of hot potato. But that didn't occur to me then. Yup
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Dec 30, 2016 19:06
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Oh dear me posted:I think that's the main reason people ask us to do it, to be honest, and I can understand them being a bit too pressing in their requests. Sometimes you just want to go to the toilet or have a conversation that doesn't involve screaming.
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Dec 30, 2016 19:30
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I would have said the same thing to a guy who said he put a baby on the floor.
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Dec 30, 2016 19:59
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:BarbarianElephant is one of the few high-effort contributors to this thread so I'm gonna go ahead and say yes. Heh, maybe you overestimate me I don't think most sane people would force a baby on someone vehemently refusing a baby, male or female. You want people to hold the baby properly, supporting the head, so it's not sensible to just dump one on a person who has never held one without some prep. Even the most "All women love babies!" person wouldn't do that (if they were sane), even if they did get in something annoying like "When you have your own you'll understand!"
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Dec 30, 2016 20:11
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Talmonis posted:Compassion and logic are at odds with each other in these cases. The right thing to do is pretend it won't hurt the business, and treat people like they aren't going to vanish for however long, possibly not coming back. But it does impact companies and always will. The rich should just get over it. These days, jobs are no longer for life. You are as likely to quit your job for greener pastures as quit it for babies. They are as likely to cut your job as promote you.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:45
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Talmonis posted:Very true, but if you're in a valued position and they need you, it hurts the bottom line quite a bit to go out on Maternity, as it's illegal to just fire you for it (like they would happily do otherwise). I think it's even worse for women who need a job. Interviewing while pregnant has to be an excercise in futility, as the company knows full well you're going to leave almost as soon as you get there, taking up a spot that could be filled with someone who would be there. I'm surprised that big companies don't see this as an opportunity. A highly qualified woman interviewing while pregnant isn't going to bargain as hard as normal. Paying 6 weeks maternity could save a lot of salary in the long run.  (not serious in case you can't tell)
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Dec 30, 2016 20:58
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Colin Mockery posted:I know your post is a joke, but my company's retention rate for women (in the Engineering department), especially women who get pregnant and have kids while working here, is loving fantastic and I bet part of that's because we're not weird douchebags about maternity leave or employees having to take care of kids. And there's some serious benefits to having "the person who probably wrote half of our flagship desktop app in 2011" on staff still. Now I kinda want to work at your place
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Dec 30, 2016 22:29
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The sweetest little red text! Thanks guys
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Dec 31, 2016 20:15
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Trans friendly feminism is the norm, perhaps we need a term for trans-hostile feminists?
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Jan 1, 2017 00:21
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Shayu posted:I hope I can have a red text one day, it feels nice to be noticed... I am no longer a dumb newbie baby
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Jan 1, 2017 04:11
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Uncle Jam posted:While exposure of girls to this kind representation is good this fake fronting ends up disguising what is still a huge inequality. You wouldn't believe how important "role models" are to young people. If you see someone like yourself in a job it automatically becomes easier to imagine yourself doing that. When I was young I always read the credits on video games I played and was delighted every time I found a female coder (which is what I wanted to do and ended up doing.) It was good to know it was not impossible.
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Jan 4, 2017 15:07
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Talmonis posted:Speaking of representation, I've noticed a lot of marketing towards young girls for Star Wars lately, and it makes me squee a little every time. And as figher pilots, commandos and Jedi too, not a helpless, badly written "queen" in sight. Jyn Erso being the lead in Rogue One was huge IMO. My husband watched Star Wars with our daughter (nearly 4) for the first time recently and its notable how she really didn't care about any of the characters except Princess Leia. I've noticed this with her and most TV/Movies - she prefers movies and TV with a lot of female characters. If there's scenes with male characters only she generally zones out and keeps asking where her favourite female characters are. I think this is one reason why "Princess" movies are so popular. They are the one genre of kid movie that reliably have a female character in a prominent role the entire way through.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:00
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Talmonis posted:When it comes to Princesses, you really can't get much better than Leia at least. I always thought she was a badass. Most modern princess stuff has "badass" princesses. I think modern girls actually prefer it to the passive princesses of the past because they haven't grown up idealizing passive characters. Frozen's Anna and Elsa, and Moana from the recent movie, are all very "badass."
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Jan 4, 2017 16:41
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Older Disney princess movies actually suffer from the passivity of the heroines, in terms of really limiting the plot. Snow White and Cinderella have lovely animation, but the heroines do *nothing.* My daughter only seemed interested in the Wicked Queen from Snow White and I think this is because she actually has agency in the movie, even though she is the bad guy! One of the clever things about "Frozen" is that Elsa is a good guy but also has all the fun of the "Wicked Queen" archetype in terms of things like building a palace out of ice and covering the kingdom in frost.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:17
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Ravenfood posted:Also, yes, it is important, but they also have to be involved in ways that aren't as figureheads. If being the one presenting at outreach programs is keeping you from having the time to run your own project, then you'll just create a culture where women are only being hired to act as "faces" while the men do the "real" work, which isn't much of an improvement, and again starts pigeonholing women into certain roles in the company. This only happens if there are only one or two women in the company. If it's 50/50 then they are hardly going to send out half the department to do outreach. Also if the company is forcing female scientists and engineers to do so much outreach that their actual work is impeded, they are going to have some very unhappy employees. Not only the women involved, but their colleagues who are wondering why Jane is always on the road and never has time on her schedule for actual work. Hopefully they don't blame Jane! Kelp Me! posted:Not to mention if you went into the movie blind literally the only way to tell she was a woman was by the voice If you want to avoid boob plates, this is inevitable for heavily-armoured female characters.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:39
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Ravenfood posted:You know they'll blame Jane, though. Or maybe the company values Jane's outreach somewhat so she doesn't get assigned as much work (theoretically cool) but then she doesn't have the opportunity to do as much work, which means she's seen by her coworkers as a figurehead or she's passed up for heading larger projects because she hasn't been as involved with smaller ones (because she's doing so much outreach). Either way, Jane's position in an outreach role starts pulling her slightly away from her original work. There was a guy earlier in the thread wondering why he couldn't keep women in his department despite trying very hard. This sort of situation might be one of those "invisible" issues that nonetheless make a company very hard to work in.
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Jan 4, 2017 20:17
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Jack Gladney posted:I don't think it was any more incompetent than Kerry's or Gore's, to be honest. It was certainly far more competent than Trump's. And even if not, it's still not sufficient to explain why she lost to a man who, if suggested as the villain for an episode of Captain Planet, would be rejected for being too cartoonish. I think Clinton was just expecting a majority of people not to vote for Biff from Back to the Future II, which I find fairly reasonable given that most Trump voters I talked to weren't themselves able to explain why they did it other than that they really hated Clinton or what they perceived to be the status quo. I find this pretty bloody mysterious too. Trump, as you say, is like a cartoon villain. Liberals are currently going crazy trying to explain it. Russian hacking and propaganda seem to be the favorite explanation at the moment, and I find it persuasive. It's very interesting how people who hate Clinton all parrot the same Russian-sponsored talking points like kids gabbling a nursery rhyme, with no distinction between Bernie fans and Trump voters. Russian propagandists seem to have found the key to the American psyche, which is quite amazing really. [/quote] Like, I don't think sexism lost Clinton the election on its own since her campaign made mistakes and her most visible achievements and public reputation come from the increasingly-despised era of third-way neoliberalism. There is a not-wrong case to be made that she was the wrong person to run, as she's always been a center-right capitalist and we are now all eating tons of poo poo caused by the predations of 90s neoliberals like her. Plus she's the one who's been burning all those children alive with drone bombs for the last four years while Americans have been beginning to notice their own foreign policy for the first time. [/quote] I don't think most Trump voters know what neoliberalism *is* and if they did, they wouldn't care, as Republicans support it even more strongly. The name is misleading; it's not a "liberal" philosophy. It's an economic policy currently espoused by both Republican and Democrat mainstreamers. Jack Gladney posted:Yet Kerry and Gore were also third-way neoliberals and they probably would have massacred Trump. There is a very strong case to make that sexism made it far easier to ignore Trump's incredible unsuitability because when compared with a woman who triggers a bunch of nasty misogynistic hatred he simply seems more like a normal man instead of what he really is. And her platform this time drew a lot from older tax-and-spend ideas and even some socialist ideas, so she wasn't repeating all the mistakes of her past. Yeah, you just have to talk about Clinton on one of the political threads on this forum and you get a lot of deep, psychologically based loathing, with nary a mention of her politically similar husband. He just doesn't get the hate. Wonder why.
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Jan 8, 2017 17:09
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DeusExMachinima posted:Oh no, I'm not talking about Lewinsky and I don't think that has anything to do with Hillary. Although of course plenty of Republicans do make jokes at Hillary's expense about it. But there are other women who've come forward about Bill being pushy or creepy or outright accusing him of rape and we know how rare it is for those accusations to be false. It's not unreasonable to expect Trump's close associates, including his campaign manager who's a woman, to disentangle themselves from him and openly denounce him for what he said and admitted to doing. Just being silent isn't enough. The same is to be expected of anyone else on the public stage. The sad thing is that both Trump and Bill Clinton have much the same attitude towards women and are accused of much the same abuses. Just shows how common it is in politics. I've never heard the slightest rumor that Obama does this sort of thing, though, which is (sadly) a great credit to him (although who knows what we will find out years later.)
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Jan 8, 2017 20:28
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Jack Trades posted:
Trump might not have Hillary's book smarts but he's certainly smart enough to get his agenda across. Don't be fooled by the media caricature of him as an idiot. He's as cunning as a fox when it comes to pushing his agenda.
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Jan 15, 2017 17:55
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I rather hope that no-one in the feminism thread is mocking the disabled. That avatar is apparently an inspiring young man who Down Syndrome who made some sort of well-known speech and not at all to be compared to an internet troll.
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Jan 15, 2017 19:21
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Sex offender registration is likely to be less of a big deal for a young man from a "good" family with good contacts than the typical penniless ex-con.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:49
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Chelb posted:Well, there are definitely power dynamics involved. Men feel more comfortable and secure doing things like that because they so often get away with it; there's a power in breaking social standards or invading boundaries without consequence, and it's a power men often use. I think watching porn in public is a bit like flashing for some guys; they like the fact that girls go "Ew, put it away!" when they see it. It turns them on.
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Jan 17, 2017 15:19
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GlyphGryph posted:Is low leakage porn experience like reading text or using some sort of enclosure like headset with no audio "acceptable" (if not desireable) in people's minds? Most guys that use porn on public transport, the fact that others are unwillingly watching is the point, not an accident. So this would make it pointless for them. They actively angle the screen so that women near them can't help but catch a glance unless they literally stare at the floor. As for text porn, who would know?
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Jan 17, 2017 16:13
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