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Kelp Me! posted:Phasma better loving get a ton of screentime in Ep8 because they hyped the poo poo out of her and she's in TFA for all of like a minute. I can't even remember if you ever see her with her helmet off. I was so mad about that. I was pumped that she was the Stormtrooper captain, had the badass silver armor and a goddamn cape, and was just comedy relief for Finn.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:12
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Eimi posted:Mulan is the best princess and imho my favorite Disney movie. I was trying to think of a disney leading woman who doesn't rely on being born into power or magic to resolve the plot, Mulan was the only one I could think of as I seem to remember that film basically being she learns to beat the tar out of people and wins at the end by being good at her job and smart. But I am not huge on disney films so there may be others.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:12
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Eimi posted:Mulan is the best princess and imho my favorite Disney movie. I liked Mulan but I wasn't okay with how the xiongnu were coded as evil and grey, a little bit of Han chauvinism. But yeah! It must've been nice for little Chinese girls to have a Chinese princess  I didn't like Frozen very much though, it felt like a retread of a much better movie, The Princess and the Frog, but whitewashed. Not to mention, I really kind of hated how all the female characters had the same face, and how they had the same face as Rapunzel. It felt kind of patronizing, especially in light of how lush and gorgeous Princess and the Frog was; that song where the animation goes all Art Deco is such a feast for the eyes! I think my favorite Disney movie as a little girl was Atlantis, so  Have y'all seen Moana yet, though?? Moana was so good!
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Jan 4, 2017 19:18
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OwlFancier posted:I was trying to think of a disney leading woman who doesn't rely on being born into power or magic to resolve the plot, Mulan was the only one I could think of as I seem to remember that film basically being she learns to beat the tar out of people and wins at the end by being good at her job and smart. Tiana 
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Jan 4, 2017 19:18
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Uncle Jam posted:In my experience when a women gets to a high engineer level they almost always get an additional outreach responsibility (with no additional pay) so that megacorp1 can demonstrate its diversity. Meanwhile megacorp1 continues to hire 95% male engineers, and while Sally the exec eng is at a smallish conference repping the company at a panel session, Ben the exec eng is making board room presentations internally. While exposure of girls to this kind representation is good this fake fronting ends up disguising what is still a huge inequality. So, I absolutely see where you're coming from but I also disagree. The biggest issue to women in the STEM workforce isn't because it's some all boys club (I mean, okay, it is, but that isn't stopping women from getting hired). It's that, with the exception of a few fields (Mathematics, Bio Engineering, recently CS, etc), women just aren't graduating from STEM in the numbers they need to be. Seeing a female in charge of Google's autonomous vehicle program matters. Girls coming out of highschool and figuring out what they want to do with their lives need to see visible women doing highly technical work. You know what I love? Felicity Smoke from Arrow. So, yeah, her character is flawed as all hell but she's cast as apologetically brilliant and she's a main character in a super hero show without having to look like a supermodel in a catsuit. That's the type of thing that I think girls need to see. Actually, I'll be honest, I'm really thrilled with how the trend in superhero shows and movies is giving women their own place. More so DC than Marvel but Jesica Jones was pretty awesome. Sorry, sidetracked, the point is, don't undersell the importance of having women in positions for the sake of visibility. Sure the company might be full of it but it can also do a lot of good. BedBuglet fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 19:25
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stone cold posted:Tiana Not familiar with the name, which film is that?
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Jan 4, 2017 19:28
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OwlFancier posted:Not familiar with the name, which film is that? The Princess and The Frog Highly recommended!
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Jan 4, 2017 19:34
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stone cold posted:Tiana  BedBuglet posted:Seeing a
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Jan 4, 2017 19:36
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Talmonis posted:I was so mad about that. I was pumped that she was the Stormtrooper captain, had the badass silver armor and a goddamn cape, and was just comedy relief for Finn. Not to mention if you went into the movie blind literally the only way to tell she was a woman was by the voice (although OTOH the idea of heavily-feminized Stormtrooper army is just...ew)
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Jan 4, 2017 19:38
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Ravenfood posted:Also, yes, it is important, but they also have to be involved in ways that aren't as figureheads. If being the one presenting at outreach programs is keeping you from having the time to run your own project, then you'll just create a culture where women are only being hired to act as "faces" while the men do the "real" work, which isn't much of an improvement, and again starts pigeonholing women into certain roles in the company. This only happens if there are only one or two women in the company. If it's 50/50 then they are hardly going to send out half the department to do outreach. Also if the company is forcing female scientists and engineers to do so much outreach that their actual work is impeded, they are going to have some very unhappy employees. Not only the women involved, but their colleagues who are wondering why Jane is always on the road and never has time on her schedule for actual work. Hopefully they don't blame Jane! Kelp Me! posted:Not to mention if you went into the movie blind literally the only way to tell she was a woman was by the voice If you want to avoid boob plates, this is inevitable for heavily-armoured female characters.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:39
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BarbarianElephant posted:Hopefully they don't blame Jane! You know they will though  BarbarianElephant posted:If you want to avoid boob plates, this is inevitable for heavily-armoured female characters. Yeah, it bites. Short of a Finn-style "this battle is so intense I need to take my helmet off for a second to breathe" reveal, it would have been kind of tough to emphasize her being a woman without it feeling shoehorned in. Hopefully she gets some genuine character development in Ep8 without it being "let's cut to Phasma in her personal quarters doing fixing her hair for no reason" or something equally asinine. e: I wish I could remember the specific books/passages but Terry Pratchett skewers feminized armor in multiple different ways and they're all hilarious; he also does a really good job getting in the head of "male character slowly but surely learns about gender equality," a whole bunch of his characters have a lot of emphasis on that specific personality development, and a lot of them approach it from different mentalities entirely. Heck, the entirety of Monstrous Regiment is about gender/species equality. Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 19:41
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Phasma was also cast as a woman very late in production. Regarding women in male-dominated fields, encouraging women to pursue those fields is great and all, but there is also the problem that often those businesses don't take any steps to retain them. They often just leave the job done at hiring, assuming that will somehow unfuck their company culture.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:46
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BedBuglet posted:Woah woah woah! Not cool! Female villians needs better representation too you know. Girls need to see that it's okay to join the dark side if that's what they want. It was more a dig at the good guys lacking women and being less diverse than the Empire.  Also Phasma is very important because how else will we find out that Snoke is Stannis.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:52
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BarbarianElephant posted:This only happens if there are only one or two women in the company. If it's 50/50 then they are hardly going to send out half the department to do outreach. And yeah, if there's enough women in the dept, its much less of an issue. The problem is getting there.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:53
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DeusExMachinima posted:Well, you could argue there's a small high-profile faction of some students on campus nowadays that would like to see that happen but they're far too busy doing stuff like protesting queer women for not getting trans actors in leading roles during the 90's. So leftists as usual I guess. I meant real leftists
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Jan 4, 2017 19:58
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stone cold posted:I liked Mulan but I wasn't okay with how the xiongnu were coded as evil and grey, a little bit of Han chauvinism. But yeah! It must've been nice for little Chinese girls to have a Chinese princess The animation during the musical numbers in Princess and the Frog was gorgeous, but most of the songs themselves (exception: I've Got Friends on the Other Side) were forgettable. I actually walked out of the theatre with the songs from Cats Don't Dance stuck in my head (another excellent and underrated movie). Frozen didn't at all seem like a retread of Princess and the Frog to me. Tiana wants to work hard to achieve her dreams and learns that it's okay to have fun sometimes. Frozen is about how hiding your true self to make sure no one finds out you're secretly an ice witch, a lesbian, a whatever, can lead to strained relationships with family and that sisterly love can be more important than romantic love. At least, that's what I got out of it. I really want to see Moana! Lilo and Stitch is also a pretty underrated Disney movie. It's a story about sisters that happens to feature a weirdo alien.
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Jan 4, 2017 20:07
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Ravenfood posted:You know they'll blame Jane, though. Or maybe the company values Jane's outreach somewhat so she doesn't get assigned as much work (theoretically cool) but then she doesn't have the opportunity to do as much work, which means she's seen by her coworkers as a figurehead or she's passed up for heading larger projects because she hasn't been as involved with smaller ones (because she's doing so much outreach). Either way, Jane's position in an outreach role starts pulling her slightly away from her original work. There was a guy earlier in the thread wondering why he couldn't keep women in his department despite trying very hard. This sort of situation might be one of those "invisible" issues that nonetheless make a company very hard to work in.
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Jan 4, 2017 20:17
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:they're really not outside of some student stuff Oh, definitely. I just didn't really see that until I started working at a university. As a student you really only the professors, students and support staff, etc. It was only later on that I realized that the higher-ups were the same as the higher-ups anywhere else: rich white dudes. It also probably doesn't help that I work in theatre; our department is way to the left of most of the campus, which is something I also didn't realize until I started working there.
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Jan 4, 2017 20:23
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BarbarianElephant posted:There was a guy earlier in the thread wondering why he couldn't keep women in his department despite trying very hard. This sort of situation might be one of those "invisible" issues that nonetheless make a company very hard to work in.
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Jan 4, 2017 20:58
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Ravenfood posted:Possibly. Compounding it, the company might honestly be trying to improve their hiring and trying not to be biased, but somehow, the person who keeps being selected for presentations outside the company is Jane because from the company's point of view, she's better at it. Say she starts as going to present at areas that are specifically trying to encourage the hiring of women. She does a good job at that first little outreach thing, so now she gets selected more and more for hiring, outreach, presentations, etc outside of the company, which takes her further from her work. She eventually gets promoted and put in charge of all of that. Great! Except now you've pulled her, again, from the work she entered the field for and drawn her to the ancillary structure that, while important, still leaves the main component of the company predominantly male, which doesn't change the existing culture at all. And the company involved doesn't even see why there might be an issue, because they promoted Jane because she's "good at it". Getting promoted / assigned based on what your bosses think you're good at rather than what you want to do (even if you're better at the thing you want to do) is something that happens to all people in large organizations. Learning to not show too much competence in areas you don't want to be tapped for is a crucial career skill. related: All the goons who are "that person who knows how to fix excel" and similar things.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:02
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wateroverfire posted:Getting promoted / assigned based on what your bosses think you're good at rather than what you want to do (even if you're better at the thing you want to do) is something that happens to all people in large organizations. Learning to not show too much competence in areas you don't want to be tapped for is a crucial career skill. If the years have taught me anything it is that having zero knowledge of IT network poo poo is preferable to knowing your poo poo. Time spent Googling why your router is down because you don't understand DHCP or whatnot << time spent fixing relatives'/coworkers network connections IT: the best real-world example of "ignorance is bliss"
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Jan 4, 2017 21:11
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wateroverfire posted:Getting promoted / assigned based on what your bosses think you're good at rather than what you want to do (even if you're better at the thing you want to do) is something that happens to all people in large organizations. Learning to not show too much competence in areas you don't want to be tapped for is a crucial career skill.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:12
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BarbarianElephant posted:You wouldn't believe how important "role models" are to young people. If you see someone like yourself in a job it automatically becomes easier to imagine yourself doing that. When I was young I always read the credits on video games I played and was delighted every time I found a female coder (which is what I wanted to do and ended up doing.) It was good to know it was not impossible. Way back in 1985, some of the staff that developed Gradius were women. One of them suggested that when you enter your initials on the high score screen that you be able to select a male,or female portrait and astrological sign next to your name. Its music composer was also a woman named Miki Higashino, who alao did the music for a few other Gradius games, Contra III: Alien Wars, and the Suikoden series.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:12
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Star Man posted:Way back in 1985, some of the staff that developed Gradius were women. One of them suggested that when you enter your initials on the high score screen that you be able to select a male,or female portrait and astrological sign next to your name. Its music composer was also a woman named Miki Higashino, who alao did the music for a few other Gradius games, Contra III: Alien Wars, and the Suikoden series. I just wanna know who to blame for it automatically changing to something else if you entered rear end into the high score list.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:17
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Preface: this post is probably going to come off as more hostile than intended but I couldn't think of a way to write my thoughts in a "friendly disagreeing" kind of way. Just making it clear that's the tone intended.Ravenfood posted:fixed. Ravenfood posted:Also, yes, it is important, but they also have to be involved in ways that aren't as figureheads. Ravenfood posted:If being the one presenting at outreach programs is keeping you from having the time to run your own project, then you'll just create a culture where women are only being hired to act as "faces" while the men do the "real" work, which isn't much of an improvement, and again starts pigeonholing women into certain roles in the company. Encouraging women into STEM is an important job but that doesn't mean that women aren't also being hired to do other important jobs like... idk, actually doing STEM work. Maybe it's because my work is largely government and gov contracting but most of the time, when I see companies actively recruiting women for technical fields, it's so they can actually do work that is actively in that technical field. Of course this is also more of a western perspective. I have a friend who works in South Korea where what you're describing is a more realistic issue. Ravenfood posted:And then you end up with women being restricted from the upper levels of management because everyone in the know "knows" that the women are hired to fill those visible roles so they're going to be more ignored at meetings, passed up for promotions, and so on. Women in visible roles are good, yeah, but its not enough and a lot of companies seem to want to act like it is. Fresh out of college I found myself in a room with about 70 people with majors covering every single major STEM discipline. We were all applying for a handful of open positions at what was/is my dream job. Of those 70 something people, there were 4 women. I and one other woman were the only people offered jobs. In a room that was overwhelmingly male, the only people offered jobs were women and that stuck in my craw for weeks. I kept feeling like I was hired because of diversity and not because of how intelligent I was or qualified I was. Then I realized how toxic that kind of thinking is. It doesn't matter why I was hired, what matters is that I am intelligent and am qualified and anyone who has worked with me knows it and would go to bat for me if anyone claimed otherwise. Maybe I have to work twice as hard to prove that I belong there but what matters is that I am proving that on a day to day basis. Prejudice can only survive within a bubble of ignorance and most ignorance (like 70% of the time) is from lack of exposure. You get enough women working in a field alongside men to where it stops being a novelty and starts being commonplace, that's when there stops being a question about whether women are qualified.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:25
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wateroverfire posted:Getting promoted / assigned based on what your bosses think you're good at rather than what you want to do (even if you're better at the thing you want to do) is something that happens to all people in large organizations. Learning to not show too much competence in areas you don't want to be tapped for is a crucial career skill. Quoted for truth! Seriously, this.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:33
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Kelp Me! posted:You know they will though So, maybe I'm alone here but I'm hoping they never take her helmet off. She's got a total bad rear end Vader feel to her now and the second they give her some humanity, that goes away. Seriously, look at kylo ren, the instant he took off his helmet he went from this bad rear end Sith to a whiny emo with daddy issues. Worth the read.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:44
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For women in STEM, I wonder how the costs of tuition are going to affect that. I already feel like American born students in STEM PhD degrees is cratering, I think partially due to tuition costs. The last hire in my dept was a foreign guy who drove to his first day of a 90k/yr entry level job in a tricked out Benz. Riding that bachelor's debt all the way through your PhD is scary, I wonder if it unequally impacts decision based on gender.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:52
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BedBuglet posted:So, maybe I'm alone here but I'm hoping they never take her helmet off. She's got a total bad rear end Vader feel to her now and the second they give her some humanity, that goes away. Seriously, look at kylo ren, the instant he took off his helmet he went from this bad rear end Sith to a whiny emo with daddy issues. Link doesn't work, but anyway: Vader and Kylo Ren were both heavily established as male characters, but they're very very different and it's not really fair to compare them together to Phasma. Vader was firmly established as a male character from the beginning, and then got 3 movies devoted to his growth as a man and his awful interactions with a woman. I also don't think the reveal of Vader's face at the end of Return of the Jedi changed anybody's opinions of Vader as a badass even a tiny bit. Kylo Ren was pretty obviously intentionally established as a flawed, very human character who is trying really hard to be a badass like Vader. Anyway, I gotta say I completely disagree that allowing a character some humanity degrades their "badass" status, especially if it's a woman.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:58
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BedBuglet posted:Preface: this post is probably going to come off as more hostile than intended but I couldn't think of a way to write my thoughts in a "friendly disagreeing" kind of way. Just making it clear that's the tone intended. quote:Um, okay? quote:I mean, sure, but that wasn't really what I was getting at. quote:Encouraging women into STEM is an important job but that doesn't mean that women aren't also being hired to do other important jobs like... idk, actually doing STEM work. Maybe it's because my work is largely government and gov contracting but most of the time, when I see companies actively recruiting women for technical fields, it's so they can actually do work that is actively in that technical field. Of course this is also more of a western perspective. I have a friend who works in South Korea where what you're describing is a more realistic issue.
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Jan 4, 2017 22:00
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Kelp Me! posted:Kylo Ren was pretty obviously intentionally established as a flawed, very human character who is trying really hard to be a badass like Vader. Yeah, I actually liked Kylo Ren because he was a pretty unique/interesting character who obviously had room for growth (in a bad direction, for now at least). It would have been boring if he was just Vader mk2.
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Jan 4, 2017 22:06
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, I actually liked Kylo Ren because he was a pretty unique/interesting character who obviously had room for growth (in a bad direction, for now at least). It would have been boring if he was just Vader mk2. My problem was without him as a "badass" the villain side of the movie fell flat. Hux and Snoke were uninteresting and nonthreatening.
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Jan 4, 2017 22:26
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Ravenfood posted:TB had a post a few pages back that was prettygreat, but female humans are called women. Not females, except maybe in some clinical settings. Its weird and seems to be much, much more common to call women females than it is men males. Ravenfood posted:No, its that companies hire women to do outreach and then shoot themselves in the foot accidentally because they way they're hiring women to do outreach means they find it harder to retain women in the rest of the company. Ravenfood posted:You're just saying its less of a problem than I am. All I wanted to point out was that you can be working to try to fix a problem and simultaneously be reinforcing that problem, or slowing down the rate of change that you could be doing. Changing the culture of a workplace is hard, and I think highly visible role models are really important. But they're not the end of it. They might start people on the path to normalizing ratios within a workplace, but there need to be other changes in workplaces and society that help that process too. That's all.
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Jan 4, 2017 22:32
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Eimi posted:My problem was without him as a "badass" the villain side of the movie fell flat. Hux and Snoke were uninteresting and nonthreatening. Yeah, that's how I ended up feeling too. He just looked weak. I guess I prefer my villains as monsters over flawed people who just made stupid choices. My favorite villains are monsters in human masks. Like, I have a lot of issues with Silence of the Lambs but Anthony Hopkin's performance of Hannibal is seriously on point. Vader was more of the Frankenstein monster type villain. The ruthless killer who turns out to have a shred of humanity buried deep down. Kylo Ren came off as angsty and I had little to no interest in Snoke or Hux.
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Jan 4, 2017 22:41
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I know I kind of started it (though I was trying to focus on how Phasma's development could have feminist or misogynist overtones depending on what they do with her) but can we not turn the feminism thread into the "talk about which male Star Wars villains are good/bad" It's unfair to compare any of them to Phasma since that would be diminishing her status as a unique character, which is something that even in the limited screen time she got was pretty well-established. She's probably the least overtly evil villain in a Star Wars movie and I'm really not sure how revealing her face would be a negative thing in any way unless it was shoehorned in in an extremely misogynistic way. In fact I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to have her do a heel turn and end up with the rebels. Honestly the only really "evil" trait she's shown to have is the usual "blindly following orders to a T without considering the implications" that you see in a lot of villain-turned-hero characters (like, say, Finn in the same movie)
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Jan 4, 2017 22:49
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Moving away from mediachat, and Kylo Renchat, a sad story out of Kentucky that highlights a greater point:quote:A study of nearly 1,000 girls’ criminal files in California, for example, found that most cases stemmed from “nonserious, mutual combat, situations with parents.” One girl reported that she was arrested for assault after hurling a Barbie at her mother. In another case, a girl threw a sheet of cookies. I don't remember who it was that was commenting on the justice system vis-a-vis women and men, but this is a glaringly huge oversight. I hesitate to use the word abuse, but this doesn't seem like a constructive use of VAWA, and the study on the unintended consequences of VAWA was quite an interesting, if disheartening read. Something disturbing that I wasn't aware of: quote:Whereas the federal VAWA definition of domestic violence is more narrowly focused on intimate partner violence, in many states the definition of domestic violence or family violence is so broad that it includes intra-family disputes between parent and child. State and local governments, goddamn. One of the things that struck me was a comment on the article: quote:Meanwhile, adults tend to impose more rules on daughters than sons, leading to greater conflict. “Girls are the ones who have curfews, who are yelled at for going out,” said Chesney-Lind. “There’s a double standard.” quote:Obviously, there’s so much to unpack in this story and what happened to this poor girl, but this stood out to me so much. Looking back on my childhood—which was overall awesome, don’t get me wrong—I realize how much more was expected of me in terms of behavior than my brother. I once went out on a date (with a guy who later turned out to be very, very gay, but that’s a different story) and refused to agree to a 10 pm curfew on a Saturday night. I was grounded for weeks. My younger brother started having sex at 14 and was smoking weed regularly by 16, and my parents, while upset and dismayed, took the tack of “well, we’d rather he do it under our roof than hide it” and allowed him to have his gf stay over and looked the other way about the weed (he turned out totally fine btw). I’m sure part of the difference in freak-out level and punishment level was due to me being the firstborn (parents more anxious with their first teenager), but the fact that I was a girl I’m sure didn’t help matters. I doubt much has changed for teenage girls vs. boys 15 years later. I know personally this was the same experience for me as the firstborn daughter. My parents were the amazingly strict, never break curfew, virginity police. Thank god I live in a place with halfway decent sex ed, because my mother never talked to me about safe sex practices, beyond "Don't have it." By contrast, my brother, who's significantly younger than me and is just finishing out his teen years now, never was punished for breaking curfew and my parents bought him condoms and let him drink beer in the house. These kinds of double standards are just another example of how these small sexist offences snowball into deadly consequences, and I dread the incoming administration. What do y'all think about this?
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Jan 4, 2017 22:55
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stone cold posted:
I often talk to my female co-workers about their kids and curfews and stuff always end up coming up for girls. The answer to any future inquiries is always, "It's different for girls." But I think the most strongest thing of all is that many of them refuse to talk to their kids about sex. My mom's sex ed was basically sending me off to college with a pack of condoms.
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Jan 4, 2017 23:06
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blackguy32 posted:I often talk to my female co-workers about their kids and curfews and stuff always end up coming up for girls. The answer to any future inquiries is always, "It's different for girls." But I think the most strongest thing of all is that many of them refuse to talk to their kids about sex. My mom's sex ed was basically sending me off to college with a pack of condoms. You know, I genuinely think it's a sexist thing, because how many media portrayals have we seen of teen dudes being all awkward about getting the talk. I would've loved the talk!
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Jan 4, 2017 23:08
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stone cold posted:You know, I genuinely think it's a sexist thing, because how many media portrayals have we seen of teen dudes being all awkward about getting the talk. I would have too, but to be honest, I think at that point, I probably knew more than my mother about sex anyhow, because I had a pretty awesome health teacher.
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Jan 4, 2017 23:13
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blackguy32 posted:I would have too, but to be honest, I think at that point, I probably knew more than my mother about sex anyhow, because I had a pretty awesome health teacher. We both got lucky.  Things like this, One of my major policy desires is federally controlled standards for sex ed so that everybody understands birth control, consent, and also how female reproductive anatomy loving works.
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Jan 4, 2017 23:19
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