|
In fairnessGlyphGryph posted:It does make me feel bad for the girls though, who I suspect were largely socialized to believe that pain is inherently bad or some sort of weird stuff like that. isn't quite the same as "it's okay to get a bit hurt in pursuit of competitive physical activity" or "sometimes you have to do something physically unpleasant to get something you want".
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 18:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 21:57 |
|
|
Nerses IV posted:Being tough is cool and good though? I think being a capable person who does not shirk from adversity is part and parcel with living a fulfilled life. Being "tough" can as easily mean "accepts mutual victimization with those around them as natural and will not challenge it" as much as it can mean "does not allow the threat of pain to deter them from following a moral imperative"
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 18:56
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Being "tough" can as easily mean "accepts mutual victimization with those around them as natural and will not challenge it" as much as it can mean "does not allow the threat of pain to deter them from following a moral imperative" There's a lot of stuff out there I won't challenge, mostly because I don't see it as actual victimization.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:00
|
|
|
bag em and tag em posted:What are you guys even debating? I don't think I've seen anyone advocate for inflicting pain on another person as a good thing unless consent is a part of it. So I'm not sure why it's getting repeated again and again as if that wasn't already established. Owlfancier, at least, doesn't seem to believe people should even be allowed to consent to it because that means someone else is inflicting it and that is bad. Also consent gets kind of weird when you're talking about exploratory play, since neither party really knows where the boundaries are. And something that is important to teach your children is that when said boundary is identified or violated, they signal clearly to the other party so that the violation will cease (and that it is important to learn how others communicate these boundaries and be respectful yourself). Stopping the game to ask "is this okay?" in advance before everything you do kind of ruins the game (esp. since the other person generally won't know), so generally you want to do exploratory touches and minor escalations until both parties understand where the limits are. Kids often go too far too fast though, because they are inexperienced, but then that's part of the point of doing it to begin with in a situation with no real long term consequences. OwlFancier posted:Then I think you could stand to be far more specific about what "roughhousing" entails because I would hope you would be aware of how that is tied up with masculine socialization towards being OK with violence in general and being "tough". Well the example given in the specific post that started all this was towel snapping.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:02
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Being "tough" can as easily mean "accepts mutual victimization with those around them as natural and will not challenge it" as much as it can mean "does not allow the threat of pain to deter them from following a moral imperative" I think it's important people learn to speak up about when they are feeling victimized, and for others to lift that burden off them. I don't think its okay to label others as victims for behaviour they engage in or tolerate willingly. It's okay for people to be different, and part of what you learn from roughhousing is learning that different people have different limits and that you need to be clear about when your own are reached.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:03
|
|
|
There's a difference between acceptable roughhousing among friends and the expectation that every boy around you will want to engage in roughhousing. There's also the problem that anybody who says they don't want to will probably be called a loser or pussy and that objecting after being hit or hurt will likely get you the response "Hey man, it's just a little roughhousing, don't be so serious." I work with kids, and a lot of them like playing a little rough, but that doesn't mean I expect every single kid to be okay with that kind of play. I think a problem arises when somebody actually does get hurt but it gets brushed off as "boys will be boys."
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:04
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Perhaps instead of trying to explain to me what I'm "not seeing", you could try asking or listening or otherwise trying to understand what I'm really saying and where I'm coming from? Apparently we can't, because that's what I tried to do and this is how you're acting. bag em and tag em posted:What are you guys even debating? I don't think I've seen anyone advocate for inflicting pain on another person as a good thing unless consent is a part of it. So I'm not sure why it's getting repeated again and again as if that wasn't already established. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:The part you're not seeing is consent. Pain can be good, if you consent to it. Like sex. Don't hurt people without their consent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
Nerses IV posted:There's a lot of stuff out there I won't challenge, mostly because I don't see it as actual victimization. Which can be indicative of having internalized it as "normal" when the people on the receiving end of it may hold quite different views.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:06
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Owlfancier, at least, doesn't seem to believe people should even be allowed to consent to it because that means someone else is inflicting it and that is bad. That's a really lovely strawman and if you can't argue in good faith maybe you should take a break until you calm down a bit.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:06
|
|
|
It its impossible to get somebody's consent to prank them. Pranks are still good though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:09
|
|
|
PeaceDiner posted:There's a difference between acceptable roughhousing among friends and the expectation that every boy around you will want to engage in roughhousing. There's also the problem that anybody who says they don't want to will probably be called a loser or pussy and that objecting after being hit or hurt will likely get you the response "Hey man, it's just a little roughhousing, don't be so serious." I work with kids, and a lot of them like playing a little rough, but that doesn't mean I expect every single kid to be okay with that kind of play. I think a problem arises when somebody actually does get hurt but it gets brushed off as "boys will be boys." Yes, exactly. The solution isn't to say "no roughhousing for anyone, we must always be sure no ones comfort boundaries are challenged!" it is to do away with the patriarchal attempt to say that all men must adhere to the same ideal and share the same high tolerances. We must be okay with diversity, and we must teach are children that although pain is acceptable, it is important that their interactions be tailored and that it is okay to make their own boundaries clear when they are at risk of being breached. They must not seek to turn others into unwilling victims, and they must not be willing to accept their own unwilling victimization, but neither of these requires that we live a bland and featureless life where victimization of that specific sort is functionally impossible - all that does is move the victimization to the mental arena anyway, where hurts are likely to be more well hidden and more harmful. We should want this sort of learning to happen during easily perceived rough physical play, where it can be guided and shaped and where the rules can be better learned.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:09
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:It its impossible to get somebody's consent to prank them. Pranks are still good though. Like that prank you and your buddies do where you burn a black church down (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:09
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Yes, exactly. The solution isn't to say "no roughhousing for anyone, we must always be sure no ones comfort boundaries are challenged!" it is to do away with the patriarchal attempt to say that all men must adhere to the same ideal and share the same high tolerances. We must be okay with diversity, and we must teach are children that although pain is acceptable, it is important that their interactions be tailored and that it is okay to make their own boundaries clear when they are at risk of being breached. Nobody loving argued for a "bland and featureless life," calm the gently caress down. I said the word "consent" and you went loving nuclear for two pages. That is not the behavior of a person who actually understands and values consent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:11
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:OwlFancier, are you a dude? GlyphGryph posted:I thought so, just wanted to make sure. That makes this a good deal more frustrating, though, in some ways. What the gently caress is this all supposed to mean? Because he doesn't instantly agree that throwing a baseball at your friends nuts is a hilarious and cool prank you immediately question his manhood and whether he's actually secretly a woman? Goddamn, I don't know if it's possible to find a better example of toxic masculinity than this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:11
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:They must not seek to turn others into unwilling victims, and they must not be willing to accept their own unwilling victimization, but neither of these requires that we live a bland and featureless life where victimization of that specific sort is functionally impossible - all that does is move the victimization to the mental arena anyway, where hurts are likely to be more well hidden and more harmful. We should want this sort of learning to happen during easily perceived rough physical play, where it can be guided and shaped and where the rules can be better learned. I again find your characterisation of a life without inflicting or experiencing pain as "bland and featureless" a bit worrying, especially as it's followed by essentially saying that your enjoyment of pain is grounds to allow victimization to happen more easily society-wide. I find myself saying the same thing I did in the strip club discussion, perhaps a society in which victimization is commonplace is not actually an acceptable tradeoff in exchange for a particular kind of personal gratification being easier?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:11
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I again find your characterisation of a life without inflicting or experiencing pain as "bland and featureless" a bit worrying, especially as it's followed by essentially saying that your enjoyment of pain is grounds to allow victimization to happen more easily society-wide. Sounds like something a woman would say.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:12
|
|
|
The lack of respect for the lived experiences of other people itt is sad but unsurprising.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:13
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Nobody loving argued for a "bland and featureless life," calm the gently caress down. I said the word "consent" and you went loving nuclear for two pages. That is not the behavior of a person who actually understands and values consent. There's something vaguely fascist about it as well. The only growth is through pain, etc. Hazing rituals with forced consent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:13
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:The lack of respect for the lived experiences of other people itt is sad but unsurprising. Said the klansman
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:13
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:The lack of respect for the lived experiences of other people itt is sad but unsurprising. Has it perhaps occured to you that I might have a lived experience which leads me to the conclusions I draw?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:14
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Apparently we can't, because that's what I tried to do and this is how you're acting. "Trying to talk about consent" is not the same as correcting me for something I didn't do, and you shouldn't need this explained to you. quote:Seems like Glyph is doing exactly that? And extremely angry at the suggestion that consent should be a part of it. So angry he can't even see the part in my very short post where I said I am being genuine, and you are accusing me of acting in bad faith. I do not know why, and I won't pretend to know why. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That's a really lovely strawman and if you can't argue in good faith maybe you should take a break until you calm down a bit. The only thing that's actually gotten me angry so far as your attempt to shut down my contributions to this conversation because you don't like my tone, and that's only true as of this particular post.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
Nerses IV posted:There's a lot of stuff out there I won't challenge, mostly because I don't see it as actual victimization. for example, starting my English major I specifically resented having to read anything but dead white males (In that specific phrasing), and I avoided women's studies classes like a plague. I was limiting myself, and I didn't realize until later it's because I was taught there was this hegemonic "canon" of writers, and I totally perceived that if I hadn't read Joyce or Hemingway et al then I wouldn't be allowed to access the Ivy halls of power I so desperately wanted.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Which can be indicative of having internalized it as "normal" when the people on the receiving end of it may hold quite different views. Oh, absolutely. Everybody's different. That's why it's important to explore and try new things, even if it might hurt or scare you, so you can enrich yourself through your experiences. Like, towel snapping. Towel snapping loving hurts. I genuinely do not like it. But I liked chasing my friends around, and then running the gently caress away if I happened to get a good one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Has it perhaps occured to you that I might have a lived experience which leads me to the conclusions I draw? Had it occurred to you that your lived experience isn't an authority on the lived experiences of other people?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:The lack of respect for the lived experiences of other people itt is sad but unsurprising. I agree, you and Glyph should really take some time to work on it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
I'm not the one pathologizing normal childhood behavior as masochistic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:17
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:I'm not the one pathologizing normal childhood behavior as masochistic. You are trying to normalize it such that anything else is pathological. Masochism is not immoral, it is simply not universal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:18
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:You are trying to normalize it such that anything else is pathological. I mean, have you ever watched puppies play with eachother..?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:18
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:I'm not the one pathologizing normal childhood behavior as masochistic. Neither is anybody else. Whipping the poo poo out of one another isn't normal childhood behavior.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
Nerses IV posted:I mean, have you ever watched puppies play with eachother..? Have you ever watched ducks mate?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:"Trying to talk about consent" is not the same as correcting me for something I didn't do, and you shouldn't need this explained to you. Oh boy, a reverse tone argument. Something tells me you're familiar with the term "kafka trap" but that's for another day. The fact that you took my three-sentence post suggesting you missed something (a thing you later claim to believe in yourself!) as "correcting" you and some kind of attack you need to spiral into whatever this is over is... not great, buddy. OF is right, you are exhibiting a lot of toxic masculinity. The brittle inability to handle dissent or criticism, the linking "real" manhood to the willingness to accept the status quo, the weird moralizing you're doing about pain. There's an unearthly green glow around all your words, dude. Some deep breaths and some listening to what people are saying instead of dwelling on how attacked they make you feel would do you a lot of good.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:You are trying to normalize it such that anything else is pathological. I don't have to try and normalize roughhousing. Its already normal, thankfully.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
Nerses IV posted:I mean, have you ever watched puppies play with eachother..? Where they often let the smaller, weaker siblings win and don't intentionally try to maim one another or draw blood? Yeah, what about it?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:20
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Have you ever watched ducks mate? So puppies playing with eachother is roughly equal to ducks mating, in intent and outcome?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:20
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:You are trying to normalize it such that anything else is pathological. Holy poo poo dude, the loving irony hurts and I do not consent to the pain you are causing me here. Who What Now posted:Neither is anybody else. As near as I can tell, Owlfancier is literally claiming that only a masochist can enjoy roughhousing or any level of pain sensation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:20
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Where they often let the smaller, weaker siblings win and don't intentionally try to maim one another or draw blood? Yeah, what about it? I don't think I've ever "won" while wrestling with a girl. It's not about "winning" in the slightest.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:21
|
|
|
Nerses IV posted:So puppies playing with eachother is roughly equal to ducks mating, in intent and outcome? So, have you just never heard of the Naturalism Fallacy, or...?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:21
|
|
|
Nerses IV posted:So puppies playing with eachother is roughly equal to ducks mating, in intent and outcome? Hey when you notice yourself wading into "intent" in the mating behaviors of non-human animals that's the grinding sound of your wheels running off on-topic road. Focus up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:21
|
|
|
Nerses IV posted:So puppies playing with eachother is roughly equal to ducks mating, in intent and outcome? Appealing to nature as a moral compass is not a good idea.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 21:57 |
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Holy poo poo dude, the loving irony hurts and I do not consent to the pain you are causing me here. Take this poo poo to The Chive, guy. You've made it clear you don't want to learn anything today. We get it. Nobody's going to unpop your collar, relax.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2017 19:22
|
|