Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

Yo here's my contribution for the evening. [I accidentally posted it in the regular feminism thread first oops]

So here is like, #masculinitysofragile ground zero. How does patriarchy hurt men? by policing their actions so hard they can't even put their hands over their face without it being disgusting and feminine.

Under patriarchy a woman is the worst thing you can be. Ergo, the worst way you can insult a man is by saying he is like a woman.

Gentlemen, regardless of your sexual orientation, it must be exhausting to have to live every day navigating a constant minefield of whether your actions are "masculine" enough to avoid ridicule and ostracizing. Like, not even being able to wear certain colors because they're too "gay." Or moving your hips too much when you dance.

Witch Hammer up there is in a social situation that must cause him constant anxiety, that even the smallest mistake can mean he is no longer masculine and acceptable. That's no way to have a healthy society.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 04:28

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 15:59

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

GlyphGryph posted:

Having anxiety about this is, in and of itself, unmasculine.

Maybe this is why many hypermasculine people will respond to violence if you put them in a situation where they can't help but be anxious about making a mistake, or anxious they could be seen to have already made a mistake. They gotta quickly try to drown out both their own anxiety and distract any potential witnesses!

oh poo poo, good point! mental healthcare is for weak unmasculine people

doing the Extremely Pissed Off Right Wingers reviews in the political forward thread, I certainly notice a theme of gun nuttery paired with toxic masculinity resulting in claims like "if you so much as set foot within a thousand yards of me on my property I will straight murder you because that's what men do"

Military worship is a very basic EPORW thing but what I want to point out here is why is it a good thing to be bad at negotiation? Why is a gun the first and only tool a soldier (or a man) should have?

rudatron posted:

This is a massive topic in itself, and is probably, more than any other reason, the number 1 cause of MRAs existing - men who do not 'fit' within masculine roles overcompensating.

But to challenge something here: it's not just that the 'worst thing you can be is a woman'. Effeminate men, are actually seen as worse than women, because you don't have any 'value' attached to you.

I can see that. It's a subject/object situation. women are objectified so they can't ever be real people anyway, but a man who ostensibly was a full person under this scheme degrading himself to object level by being deliberately feminine, well, that's an existential horror isn't it?

do not get me started on MRAs. that shithole is so wide and deep. MRA, PUA, incel, men going their own way, all of them unhealthy coping mechanisms built up around perceived failures to Man well enough. (see: Elliot Rodger)

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 04:43

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

brae posted:

I wonder why they bother with the "please" after the "I am a lord of battle" preface.

that's the "negotiating"

I find it helps to think of the audience for these memes as six year olds.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 04:59

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

I would like to point out that you entered this conversation - your very first post on the subject - was to correct a "logical error." This is an illustration of toxic masculinity. Your socialized belief that you know best and your opinion is worth the most regardless of how ignorant you may be on a topic is actively preventing you from learning. Patriarchy is making you less than you could be.

this articulates something I've been trying to get my head around for a while now, thanks.

like, why is it so loving important to men to make sure their opinion gets equal weight and exposure, no matter how inconsequential or ignorant? I can point to direct societal forces and policing actions for the macho masculinity stuff but this is a more ambiguous or subtle reinforcement I think. What does that socialization look like? Maybe calling on men over women in class is part of it. Maybe men dominating every discussion is part of it. Maybe the conflation of men with science and logic and reason?

the men who overcome their instinct to just flap their mouths in every situation and are able to just sit and listen and think definitely have an advantage.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 06:14

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

OwlFancier posted:

I think perhaps it is less a socialization to speak, and more a complete absence of socialization to hold your tongue.

As soon as a thought enters your head, you say it. That's what you do. There is little incentive not to.

this is a much simpler explanation. Fits with the whole "our education system favors girls because boys are just naturally unable to sit still and are rambunctious and speak out of turn"

I 100% was socialized to watch what I said and when I said it very carefully. The only times I ever got in trouble in school were for "talking back." At the time I didn't see it as a gendered difference

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 06:35

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

OwlFancier posted:

You do get told not to be disruptive but that really just teaches you to moderate your subjects, actually just speaking is rarely discouraged as long as it is judged relevant. Your teacher/parents will probably approve of you giving a good answer or saying something interesting.

I have a hunch though that men of colour probably do not experience quite so unrestricted a childhood.

African American male students as young as 6 get suspended at some ridiculous rate like over twice the white ones. And I think there was some study where they showed sets of educators videos of boys being generally disruptive in the exact same way and the educators in the study said they would discipline the black boys at a way higher rate and more severely than the white boys doing the same kinds of disruptions.

"Let the boys answer" is definitely something I heard in classrooms where 2-3 girls were raising our hands for everything. messed up in retrospect.

blackguy32 posted:

some of the loudest men that have opinions on feminism have never picked up a feminist text in most of their life.

this is so real it could have a pithy named "law" stating it

blackguy32 posted:

There are plenty of times where I keep my mouth shut. Many times its around cops, other times its because you don't want to deal with a debate where the other side isn't going to listen to what you have to say regardless.

I'd be interested to hear more about this duality of being told as a man your opinion is king but also being told as a black man your opinion is going to get you in trouble with authority.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 06:57

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

I remember one time a white guy showed me the laminated bill of rights he kept in his wallet.

oh, a libertarian?

I'm told libertarians of color exist but I honestly don't understand how. You need like a massive amount of privilege and willful ignorance about how it works to remain a libertarian

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Good thing the somethingawful dotcom forums are a respite from the harsh realities of the outside world

I laughed

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 07:24

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

Mendrian posted:

This is definitely close to the truth, I think.

I was always pretty eager to please as a kid (white male here) and virtually everything I said in class was rewarded with praise and positive feedback. Nothing feels quite as good as saying something you think is smart and having someone say, 'hey, you're pretty smart'.

It took me most of my adult life to realize that even if I were passably intelligent that feedback had very little to do with my intelligence.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that until I started seriously thinking about it and talking to a professional I didn't realize how much I had come to rely on that kind of praise to build my self worth. Male identity is pretty wrapped up in constantly reinforcing your worth through assumed channels (things like being the loudest voice in the room, having great ideas, etc) and a lot of male rage and misogyny is born from men who feel like they are suddenly being 'ignored', when they are in fact just not getting a steady fix of praise.

Thanks for sharing, This framing makes a lot of sense

GlyphGryph posted:

Bullying-wise: Had a kid break into my locked and hock loogies all over my stuff. Had food thrown at me. Suckerpunched once. Surrounded on the wooded path to school and threatened.Threatened with a gun. Had a knife pulled on me once after getting my head slammed into a wall. Believe it or not each one was what I was hoping for that last one and was a clear victory on my part, since I had intentionally provoked it knowing he had it on him and rationalizing that if it was my best chance to get them expelled and off my back. Depressing realization after middle school that I had passed a chunk of the bullying I had received on to someone even less advantaged than myself, which I had justified at the time as him somehow deserving it but in reality I was doing it to feel better at myself, something I tried to be more conscious about not doing in High School. A depressing realization after high school that the kids who had bullied me, or at least the ones that I managed to get kicked out of school, were themselves super hosed up - one of them literally had a hole in his heart, no other real friends, and had to go to regular surgeries and I think he died shortly after high school ended.

yo this is horrifying. I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm sorry also that you felt responsible. You clearly had way more empathy for your bullies than I would expect.

over in EPORW land there are two major schools of responses on bullies. These are responses to a macro that says "'Like' if you would you stand up for a child being bullied" (the child being laughed at is of course a cute little white girl but that's another thread)

Half the commenters lamented that kids would never learn to stand up for themselves if we didn't let them be bullied

The other half were self-aggrandizing tough guy stories about how they made bullies eat dirt and saved the day

Basically waxing nostalgic about bum fights between kids.

Note that in both of these violence is the answer. There is no room for empathy or problem solving or conflict resolution. Not fighting back means you're not "standing up for yourself" and it's heavily implied that the child being bullied thus gets what he not only deserves, but NEEDS, to give him impetus to join the cult of violent masculinity. That must really suck if you're less physically intimidating, or if you just don't want to participate in socially sanctioned violence.

By saying "these are the skills you need to make it in the adult world" (not empathy or conflict resolution) we're setting men up to be lovely to each other, and violent in their home life.

quote:

It does make me feel bad for the girls though, who I suspect were largely socialized to believe that pain is inherently bad or some sort of weird stuff like that.

wait, what? Can you say more about this?

Causing pain to others is bad, yes...

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 16:43

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

GlyphGryph posted:

Perhaps instead of trying to explain to me what I'm "not seeing", you could try asking or listening or otherwise trying to understand what I'm really saying and where I'm coming from?

If you want to talk about consent, we can do that. I'm not blind to it. But it's not really relevant to the point I was making - that girls (and increasingly more boys) are being socialized to see pain as something inherently bad and always to be avoided (except maybe outside a sexual context) and that, personally speaking, this is a bad thing for the many boys (and girls!) who would benefit from situations to which it is well suited.

I'm trying to share my concerns here, I don't think I need to be corrected on mistaken beliefs you haven't even bothered to verify are actually true.

Yo, hey, that was not an attack on you. That was TB continuing the conversation by trying to make you understand where WE are coming from. What concerned me about towel snapping rituals was not that some kid's butt would sting, it's that as I understand it happens, it's either nonconsensual bullying or even if it's a game among "friends" it might well be that one of those friends might hate it but not feel like he can object to it.

So like, as far as what I hear you saying about pain having a purpose, eat something spicy or climb a mountain with your friends, and feel the satisfaction of something you've worked hard and sacrificed to accomplish.

Basically this

OwlFancier posted:

I don't think things which encourage people to hurt each other are things that are necessary for living a fulfilled life

There is enough nonconsensual pain in life. We don't need to compound it for the sake of Building Character or whatever. Because sometimes the "character" you build is just more abusive patriarchy

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 18:46

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 15:59

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

Nerses IV posted:

There's a lot of stuff out there I won't challenge, mostly because I don't see it as actual victimization.

True everyone needs to make those judgments for themselves. I would say the key is to interrogate our own opinions and realize there are going to be times when we have been blind to the negative influences of patriarchy on what we think.

for example, starting my English major I specifically resented having to read anything but dead white males (In that specific phrasing), and I avoided women's studies classes like a plague. I was limiting myself, and I didn't realize until later it's because I was taught there was this hegemonic "canon" of writers, and I totally perceived that if I hadn't read Joyce or Hemingway et al then I wouldn't be allowed to access the Ivy halls of power I so desperately wanted.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:15

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.