|
Cross posted from the Aviation Ask/Tell:xaarman posted:While true that Pilots have higher compensation on the outside, 12R CSOs are horrendously undermanned at Offutt AFB. If you can access the C2ISR Webinar on MyAF, you can see the raw numbers. Furthermore, and I'm not trying to get in a pissing contest here, Pilots take a lot longer to get up to full quals. I'm talking Chief Pilot IP/EP FTU instructor type. I'm a 12R somewhere in the 55th WG  . My personal opinion is that the 12R community is undermanned because the AF keeps trying to kill off 12X, only to realize that yes, bombers/AFSOC/Recce exist and we do in fact need officers who aren't pilots. Seniority wise we're not hurting for O4+, we're hard up on O2 and down, and the 12Rs we do have are all mixed up incorrectly with regards to Nav/EWO. After the last major RIF I can count on 1 hand the number of 12Rs I've seen get out, and those are the people who are profoundly unhappy with military life. Almost all of us are contemplating getting out, but we're looking at our compatriots on the outside and realizing that we're going to take a paycut and we probably wont ever get up to the ~$150k a LtCol makes. On top of that we look at the jobs being offered for 12Rs and realize that deployments and TDYs included, the military is a cakewalk full of 2 hour lunches and 3pm "workout sessions". A senior Capt with $650 flight pay and a dependent makes ~$120k (I've compared this with an Engineer 4 friend in my area who makes $115k and it checks, my monthly take home is a little higher before retirement withdrawls) and an LtCol makes ~$150k, something that most 12Rs wont ever get close to making without a mil retirement supplementing us while also working straight 9 hour days with each hour accounted for. Pilots on the other-hand can get out, take an initial paycut then be back to SrCapt equivalent inside 3 years (assuming they're flying for a legacy airline). After that 3 years they're racing their AD compatriots in pay while all the while building seniority (and doing much less work). The only incentive to stay in therefore, is the quality of military flying, and the mil lifestyle. There is a SIGNIFICANT financial incentive to GTFO and go to an airline. I hear a lot of complaining from pilots about how hard the .mil lifestyle is and how the AF isn't pampering them enough (my words  ) and how money isn't a factor but to me that just doesn't check. I NEVER hear that from any other flying officer, NEVER. At least when I joined I was told flat out "you're an officer first flyer second", and I was expected to abide by that (on a side note I want to choke every LT pilot who tells me they don't do office work because they're just there to fly). I personally think that if the airlines paid about half of what they do right now then you wouldn't have near the pilot shortage we have now.My opinion may be biased, I joined later in life after some pretty lovely jobs and consider the military one of the easiest jobs I've ever had, deployments and TDYs included. There are absolutely things that I'd love to have change, assignment preference for one, but I really don't see a work/life balance issue from where I stand. I'm actually looking at being a 10year crossover to pilot just so I can get in on some of that sweet sweet airline pay when I retire. I'd never have considered it before but you guys keep getting out and the AF keeps getting more desperate. I'm one of those whackos who actually likes the military and doesn't mind the office work so I'd be more than happy to keep going lol JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Apr 4, 2017 |
#
¿
Apr 4, 2017 03:46
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 21, 2024 00:43 |
|
|
Godholio posted:Be glad, you've been fortunate. If you're a captain with over a year TIG and you're still getting long lunches and PT breaks, you're in a completely different Air Force than the one I was in. Oh, I'm an '08 lol, I'm just good at paperwork.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 4, 2017 04:32
|
|
|
xaarman posted:Like my previous post, I have zero complaints about military officer pay. I think we are fairly well compensated and anyone who stays is easily going to be upper-midle-class. That being said, every 12X I know who was unhappy got out when the getting out was good... VSP and finally RIFs murdered the numbers. Those that are left... are more your type, who are happy to keep doing the things you're doing for the current compensation. When I was at a COCOM HQ, there were mil and civilians who absolutely thrived in a bureaucracy, knowing the rules, how to navigate the different directorates, writing quips, etc. I, and most pilots I know, are not those types of people. No Capt. who gets out is going to starve that's for sure. If you REALLY don't like the AF then yeah for sure peace out, especially if you're a pilot and can make bank. The military really isn't for everybody and I hold no ill will against anybody who either doesn't like it or doesn't really fit in. quote:The Officer first pilot second is a line of bullshit I used to get annoyed at, but now I openly tell them to pound sand. AF recruiting commercials don't sell you on writing OPRs or award packages, and the Thunderbirds don't exist to make sure we're DTS experts. I joined to fly, fight and win. The rest is queepy bullshit, and just like Office Space, I will work just hard enough to make sure people doesn't notice me while I'm doing what motivated me to join in the first place. Unfortunately that is how the AF is set up and quite frankly I'm ok with it. From what I've seen there really isn't enough office work OR flying work to make each a full time job with the manning we have. A single civilian can do all the RA duties of a 150man sq, same thing for mobility/training/stan-eval etc. 6-9 GS9's can do an entire sqs paperwork which would leave what for all the pilots/navs/ewo's/enlisted sitting around? You can only study so much before you just aren't learning anything new and stop showing up to work on weekdays. When I first came in we still had orderly rooms and it made stuff really easy for me, but also meant that I had a lot of half days/8am show and go. It's a waste of money IMO. I can be a flight commander of a training shop and a 12X instructor/evaluator just fine, it's not EASY but it's not HARD. This may very well be due to me being on a large crewed aircraft though, things like fighters or slicks may be very different. quote:I agree that if airlines didn't pay as much, the exodus wouldn't be as vast.... but it would still be there. The airline seniority system encourages people to get hired ASAP and are punished for waiting in the way of lower line numbers. The USAFs own words is that the culture is driving people out now that they have options. Pilots didn't have options before, now we do and people are voting with their feet. Which is exactly my point. I don't blame pilots for getting out in droves, I sure as hell would if I were a pilot, and in fact I'll probably be putting in a pilot package this year as a drat Maj. select just BECAUSE the airlines pay so much. However, most of the arguments I see on FB or on other forums try to make it into a lifestyle argument and how pilots would stay if the AF was just 'easier' or something, which I will absolutely call BS on given that if lifestyle really was the issue you'd see a mass exodus of 12's, 13's and whatever it is RPAs are. The fact that we aren't seeing a mass exodus from those career fields at the same level as pilots points to the reason being money, and the solution lying with the Airlines. IMO if the ATP for airlines rule was reversed you'd see a massive drop in Airline pay and a corresponding drop in pilots punching out. All these other round-about fixes just feed into the perception that all pilots are whiny primadonnas who wont be happy until they're basically overpaid pampered warrant officers. JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Apr 4, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Apr 4, 2017 23:38
|
|
|
Godholio posted:So those civilian jobs are actually staffed at Offutt? No wonder you have free time. We had one civilian in a squadron of 350+ people, and that was the commander's secretary. The CSS was full of whoever was pregnant or long term DNIF at the time, which meant nobody knew how to do their jobs. I probably said it wrong, I meant that all the functions of a sq COULD be done by a handful of civilians, so having a hundred CGOs sitting around able to do it should be essentially just as good. I mean, I'd LOVE to have an orderly room back and not have to deal with anything, but if it were up to me I'd use that money to give us pay raises or matching TSP contributions or something. xaarman posted:I've already been convinced, don't need to rage at me. The original post in the Aviation Ask/Tell thread was a debate about the mass pilot exodus being caused by such high paying job opportunities on the outside, or the lovely culture of active duty. Yeah, the money is so good at this point I think you'd have to have a pretty major reason to even think about staying in.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 5, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
Godholio posted:Except what are those CGOs supposed to be doing for the first 2-4 years? Becoming world-class experts in their tactical field. What did they sign up to do? Fly. We've spent almost 20 years cutting training and cutting support personnel then pushing the flyers/maintainers/whatever into those support roles as additional duties that they're not trained for, and patting ourselves on the back for the double savings and it's bullshit. Readiness is trash, people are burning out, and most of the best/brightest are loving leaving as soon as they can which further cuts readiness. Half the people who stay in are doing it because they're close enough to retirement they can coast to retirement on passing PT scores, not getting a DUI, and camping out in the ADO shop. The other half are careerist hacks, patches, or, in the smallest minority, the good ones. I think we disagree on how hard the office job part is. IMO after IQT and MQT there isn't enough flying/studying a new LT can do that will actually fill up a 40hr work week. From what I've seen of students is they kill themselves in a year of training (after UNT/UPT), get to line flying, do 1-2 sorties a week and then do fuckall when they're not flying. Even the brand new pilots who give me crap about joining to fly not to work a desk don't actually spend 40hrs a week doing flying related duties. They do the same 1-2 sorties a week, do the 4-5 hours of "studying" (I've never actually seen one in a vault) a week and are conveniently nowhere to be found the rest of the time, which ends up being 2-3 half days each week. If 1 civ can do an entire shops function (which they can IMO), then 5-6 CGO's working 2-3 half days a week can handle the same workload. I had a lot of jobs before I joined the AF, and I joined late. The AF is by far the easiest job I've ever had, and my late joining friends all wholeheartedly agree, so I really don't get the whole "I'm a pilot not an officer" thing comes from. You can easily do both, they just choose not to.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2017 01:28
|
|
|
Casimir Radon posted:Who is still in in some capacity still? It has to be pretty small nowadays. I'm still in for now, made Major (98% promote rate wut wut) so hopefully I'll finally be able to PCS (been at this base near 8 years now). If they don't give me a good assignment though I'm out. Fat_Cow posted:Small update, the second recruiter i called gave me the number for the OTS recruiter after a round of questions about myself. When asked about the two year wait he simply said "it's case by case, and depends on what the need for X is at the time" so that's good news. So here's the deal: 1. nobody in recruiting will help you get an officer package in, this is because a. you don't count against the recruiters quota until you commission and b. the AF doesn't need officers who aren't self motivated. The OTS process is complicated and annoying and nobody cares to fix it because if you don't care enough to figure it out then they don't care enough to get you in. Go to AFOTS.com or whatever forum is in vogue now and read about other peoples experiences to help you along. The recruiter will drip feed you info whenever they feel like it, so you can either go with that and take a year to get a package built or you can get the forms yourself, fill them out, and have the recruiter just turn them in. My OTS->board->class date start took 8 months start to finish, and getting my package submitted took 3 weeks because I just did it all myself, went to the recruiter, dropped it in his lap and told him to submit it. He did ZERO work for another tick off his quota and was quite happy about it. 2. Don't go base admin, just don't. You will sit at a desk monitoring civilians either cutting ID cards for some assholes fat wife, or you'll be making sure people aren't peeing in the soap at the base gym (actually loving happened). At BEST you'll be running a civil engineering flight where you'll be sending airmen out to look at broke air-conditioners then contracting some civilian dude to come in and fix it at 300% markup. If you want to get in quick then just go rated. Be a pilot, be a CSO, be an ABM or something. The AF is desperate for all three, as long as you're not an idiot and don't have any felonies you'll get picked up. You'll go to OTS quick, and then you'll sit casual status making $45k a year to show up to work for 30 minutes to make sure you're all still alive, then you'll get released to go home to sit at the pool. 4 years later you'll be pushing 6 figures with flight pay and a fancy fireproof jumper and then when you get out you can find a job pretty much wherever. Senior staff at almost every AF base will mostly be flyers anyways, especially if that base has a runway (most AF bases!) so you'll actually be able to use your masters at some point in the distant future, more than you would as base admin I'd wager. The AF isn't that bad as an O so long as your job doesn't suck. You'll make drat good money, better than most of your peers on the outside, you'll travel a bit, and then after your commitment is up you can peace out for whatever other job you want on the outside. PS Don't go enlisted -> officer unless there's a very specific enlisted job you want that isn't offered to O's. It's actually harder to transition to officer from enlisted than it is to go O straight off the street in my experience. JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jul 20, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Jul 20, 2017 22:39
|
|
|
McNally posted:Wait, the Air Force has .mil people doing this? Like Godholio said, sometimes. At my base it's all civilians cutting the cards and enlisted admin types doing awards and decs. There's a captain in the chain somewhere though, I couldn't say what they do or how they like it though. As far as I can tell the whole system is designed to randomly remove my system permissions thus making me wait 2 hours in line to get the certificates reloaded with a 50% success rate. I hate MPF with a passion. Larry Parrish posted:Also a LOT of base staff positions are seemingly only held by pilots, so have fun if you get a career field you hate. Supposedly it's harder for officers to switch AFSCs I just saw this: I can only speak for rated but it is essentially IMPOSSIBLE to switch AFSCs unless you're moving "up" the flying chain. Basically you can always apply to be a pilot, but you'll never be allowed to reclass into Intel or something unless you're medically disqualified from flying. When I came in the cool thing to do was get commissioned as a Nav then fail out the first few weeks, or just be "afraid to fly". The AF would then reclass you into whatever job you wanted because you at least started as aircrew. It was apparently the only way to get MX officer and I had a couple prior e OTS buddies flat out say that's exactly what they were doing. When the bosses found out they just started booting anybody who failed training. I think non-rated can do something like that with certain jobs, like I think you can apply for CRO as services or something, and I'd imagine they'd let you swap into critically manned fields but I don't hear of it often. And yes, nearly every job with actual decision making powers will usually be staffed by a flyer if its a primarily flying base. Some bases that are primarily other jobs, like acquisitions bases will have far fewer flyers but there'll probably still be a few. JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jul 21, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Jul 21, 2017 08:31
|
|
|
Fat_Cow posted:Appreciate the post. I contacted the recruiter Wendesday, left a message and sent a followup text message today with no response back either time. I may have to somehow find another Officer recruiter, which I have no idea how, unless I look in South Carolina instead of NC. Don't just wait on the recruiter, go to AFOTS.com or whatever forum people are using now and find out what the next board dates are and research what you need to get started. When I put in my package you needed to have 3 letters of recommendation, an AFOQT score, a TBAS and a full flight physical. You'll need the recruiter to schedule the tests, but you want to be ready to take them ASAP. When you DO get in contact with the recruiter you want to be able to say you have a bunch of stuff already done, forms already filled out ready to go, and you just need him to schedule out your tests for you. Godholio posted:With a rated position, you are specifically selected for OTS to become one of those jobs. If you apply to be a pilot, you're selected for OTS to be a pilot or not at all. If you go non-rated, you're applying for OTS and hoping the Air Force later assigns you a job that isn't hell. You find out your career field about halfway through the course. Rated boards also have a FAR higher acceptance rate as well. My Nav board it was 95%, and right now I hear pilot boards are pushing 80%, I've even seen them take dudes with DUIs as a civilian (something that will kill your career in the AF). For comparison, Non-rated boards are regularly around ~40% acceptance. Every flying career is hurting for people. Remember how we said that most of the Admin jobs are filled by flyers? Yeah that's a great example of why flyers are getting out in droves. People who joined to fly planes, drop bombs, or otherwise do flying stuff are being stuck behind desks to pick the color of the new maternity ward (which you said you wanted right?). ALSO pilots are leaving in droves because they can instantly transition into jobs where they'll be making $200k+ in 3-4 years doing nothing but flying planes, which is definitely a big part of it too. I mean, Fat_Cow you have no job right? So how are you going to say no to a job that will have you making 6 figures in 6 years, and will pretty much guarantee you a job doubling that when you hit your 10 year mark? Why don't you want to be a pilot? EVERYTHING in the air force is dedicated towards putting planes in the air and shooting stuff and pilots are the ones flying those planes. Everything is heavily slanted to pamper pilots, why would you not want to be one of them? CSO and ABMs are great jobs but they're both definitely below pilots in the eyes of the Air Force, and non-rated are far below all of them. If you really don't want to be a pilot, I'd go CSO over ABM, but I'm biased since I'm a CSO. All the ABMs I've met have been generally grumpy and not really happy with their jobs. CSOs you at least have a decent shot at being happy with your jobs. With some CSO positions you're just that guy in the back (F15E CSOs), some CSO positions you're the boss (EC130H, AC130). I like my job for the most part, the only reason I'm looking at getting out is because I want to live overseas and I've found some good paying jobs (~100k, not including COLA and tax incentives) in some places I'd like to live. CSOs at least aren't getting out in droves like pilots, though I think that's because CSOs can't roll into high paying airline jobs like pilots can. As an aside I think fighter pilots in general are gutting their own career field with all the stupid poo poo they do to themselves. I was about to drop a pilot package this year but decided not to since after 8 years working tactical missions the only planes I'd want to fly are fighters, and gently caress that fighter lifestyle. A 12 hour day for a 2 hour sortie? Pointing with my elbows, paying money every time you say head or box? All the stupid little poo poo they make the new guys do, it's just retarded. TBH it really just sounds like they're so bored doing nothing but flying cap and pretending to fight at LFEs that they just started making up stupid poo poo to vent all that excess alpha energy they got going on. It would be amazing to fly an F16 or something, but I just couldn't deal with that after the chill herk life. JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jul 22, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Jul 22, 2017 23:32
|
|
|
Fat_Cow posted:Awesome post again. The reason I would shy away from pilot is mostly due stress/anxiety on flying a large aircraft. I mean I would be able to fly (got PRK surgery), but I dont think my personality meshes well with that sorta job. Mission planning does sound interesting since planning sorta meshes with my Masters (city Planning v mission planning), which I assume have goals, objectives, etc. Do these rated jobs have high AFOQT score requirements or is it just apart of the entire application package? You have to be a flyer to do mission planning. I suppose intel could help with certain airframes, but by and large it's a flying thing. As for the personality thing, all I'll say is me now looks almost nothing like me back when I first started. OTS does a great job of getting you into a habit of saying "fuckit" with all the stupid rear end queep they make you do. I was terrified of flying when I showed up to IFS, but I knew that I was going to get into that tiny rear end DA20 and fly it because "fuckit" I'm not going to die, might as well keep going. From there, flight training will turn you into a type A personality whether you want it to or not. I say all that to again point out that the entire point of the AF is to fly airplanes and blow stuff up. If you want the funnest jobs with the best promotion potential, you'll want a job that involves flying airplanes. There is also a very real quality of life difference between rated and non-rated. High AFOQT scores are not a requirement for rated positions, you'll actually need higher scores to go non-rated. I gave you the wrong link before, it's airforceots.com. Go there, look at what other people are getting picked up with for whatever jobs you're interested in. You'll also be able to see the time lapse between board dates and shipping out dates. The AF will look at everything you submit: scores, GPA, prior flight experience, and your letters of recommendation. Any leadership type stuff you did prior to joining will also help you out. I don't know when the next board date is, I think there's 2 a year for Rated jobs, spring/fall, so you'll probably be looking at sometime September. If you were super proactive and got a package built quick you could meet the the fall board, then figure 2-3 months from board meeting to results posted, then maybe 3-5 months until your OTS date. Those are wild rear end guesses though, you'll need to do that research on your own on the various OTS forums.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 23, 2017 02:19
|
|
|
To each they're own, I like the AF and have had a good time so far. It also helps that I make a solid $30k more than my college friends :p
|
|
#
¿
Jul 23, 2017 20:36
|
|
|
Kawasaki Nun posted:Think about the amount of work you have out towards your job search relative to what you'll have to do to get commissioned and put your head out of your rear end. Your grandfathers offhand comment does not necessitate this level of follow through, and while commissioning in the lamest branch of the military might solve your unemployment issues it will inevitably cause others. Sometimes it's hard to get a good job in your own field? I worked in mortgages for 2 years before I quit and joined the AF, I had a business degree and loving hated business. I don't know about the OP but I know plenty of people who couldn't find jobs with a bachelors so went straight into getting a masters, then found themselves in that wonderful position of being "over qualified" with no work experience. As much as you guys may hate the military now, there's no denying that it pays well and it gives you good options when your commitment is up.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 23, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
Fat_Cow posted:Awesome post again. The reason I would shy away from pilot is mostly due stress/anxiety on flying a large aircraft. I mean I would be able to fly (got PRK surgery), but I dont think my personality meshes well with that sorta job. Mission planning does sound interesting since planning sorta meshes with my Masters (city Planning v mission planning), which I assume have goals, objectives, etc. Do these rated jobs have high AFOQT score requirements or is it just apart of the entire application package? I forgot to mention that when you go for your interview with a FGO (if they still do that) you'll probably be asked about being a pilot, either why you want to be one or why don't you want to be one. You'll want to avoid saying anything about not liking stress etc. it'll probably not end well.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 24, 2017 03:54
|
|
|
Godholio posted:We usually just dumped a few gallons of water on people as they departed their fini-flight. Sometimes cheap champagne. This. The extent of our "new guy hazing" is saying "you're new so nobody cares what you think" everytime an Lt has an idea... unless the idea is good then we say "good idea".
|
|
#
¿
Jul 25, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
Knives Amilli posted:Well looks like I got selected for an Officer Slot. Congrats, what job?
|
|
#
¿
Sep 21, 2017 07:36
|
|
|
Knives Amilli posted:17S. Figure since its the Guard and all there will be some more hoops to jump through but got the official email today. Pro tip, nobody outside your career field will know what those numbers and letters mean.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 22, 2017 08:42
|
|
|
nullscan posted:[TELL] Me how to be a CFC Key rep doing minimal effort while collecting most bullet Announce the fund raiser at roll call for a few weeks, send a mass text to the sq with a read receipt, and any time you're tired of work go "get those last few contacts done" for a few hours. Literally 10min of work and a great excuse for when you want to gently caress off somewhere else. Then just lie about how much money was raised last year compared to this year to make your opr/epr numbers look good. Remember, if the boss signs it, it happened.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2017 06:06
|
|
|
Howard Phillips posted:I used to work with Navy intel people on an operational level staff and both of those also apply to Navy intel officers. I think Air Intel is mostly wannabe pilots. Lots of nerding out in front of computer screens and postulating over tactical poo poo they don't really understand. Not intel but I've worked with them as part of my flying squadrons and at the CAOC. What does your friend want to know? At the flying squadron level they're basically just helpers, almost like librarians. You give them a bunch of RFI's, they'll try to figure out what you mean since they don't know fuckall about flying or what the threat numbers mean in relation to flying, and will end up printing off the wrong stuff more often than not. They'll also give a weekly brief every now and then. Deployed they take your post mission reports and file them off to some place, and give pre-mission step briefs on known threat updates. Nothing cosmic or overly cool. At the CAOC there's 2 types, the power tripping ISRC (ISARC? dunno, it's nerd poo poo anyways) who just assigns UAV orbits but sits with the CAOC director so they must be cool, and then the intel dudes behind the locked door. Again, the ISRC just assigns UAV orbits based off unit requests, which MAY sound cool to someone who doesn't know what that really means... but it really isn't since it's really just using an excel spreadsheet to prioritize requests. The dudes behind the locked door just take intel as it comes in and file it away into squirrel hole of nothingness, then bitch when you ask them to pull info out of said squirrel hole because YOU actually have to do something important. It's not like the movies, your friend isn't going to be a spy or kicking in doors and poo poo. He MIGHT fly on a plane or go outside the wire, but it'll always be as a bit of an afterthought and never an active fight. On the plane he'll just file the reports as poo poo happens, and outside the wire he'll be looking at the aftermath of a fight. It's also insanely hard to get a job in intel out of OTS as well, his best bet is to go rated. Rated also has more job satisfaction IMO. JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Dec 4, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Dec 4, 2017 20:38
|
|
|
the yellow dart posted:Oh my, a pilot trying to tell intel what they do and how they don't fit in. And intel acting smug instead of answering a question. Point proven.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 6, 2017 08:17
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 21, 2024 00:43 |
|
|
nullscan posted:Ya'll are both dickheads and if you don't stop loving doing cossack dances at your desks and smashing all my fiber every week I'm throttling your youtube down to 14.4 modem speeds. Cool story, while you’re here I need my password reset and the printer needs new drivers kthanx.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 7, 2017 00:59
|
|