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I don't think Perez is a bad man, both him and Ellison seem like they would be good for the job, but I do think Ellison's symbolic win is important for the future of the party. Right now I see a lot of people waiting to determine whether they can work within the party or whether they just have to cut ties altogether, and they've decided Ellison's victory will show them how willing the Dems are to change. Even if that's greatly overestimating how much Ellison would shake up the establishment and the actual reach of the DNC, these people are very energized and we can't afford to lose them and split up the left even further. I like to believe that all the bad legislation and discrimination still going on after Ellison gets elected would keep them motivated to stay involved, I don't think getting over-confident is going to be an issue until we see a much larger scale victory like winning the white house or congress. Also not very thrilled about Perez just dodging questions about his stance on Israel and I'm not as clear on how good he is at mobilizing a strong grassroots movement which is the most important thing out of the DNC for me.
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Jan 24, 2017 17:49
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even if perez were literally ellison in a perez costume, this sends the message to the mobilizing grassroots movements that dems still aren't willing to listen to them, now they'll organize outside the party. most likely outcome is that with the most energized people moving on and less pressure, dems will keep shooting themselves in the foot and we'll get the biggest push for a third party candidate so far but it won't be enough to win while the left is split. with trump or one of his replacements in office for 8 years, so many rights are taken away that it becomes impossible to wrestle back power until most boomers start dying and by that time climate change catches up to us so the rest of us die too. option b: nuclear winter before we even get to the next election. it doesn't really matter if you think the left are being unreasonable or putting too much importance on one minor election, this was a strategically suicidal move at a time when the party absolutely couldn't afford it.
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Feb 26, 2017 01:46
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:SMH, people in this thread would seriously rather see the Dems under Perez to lose to Trump just to prove a loving point. you're mistaken if you think i or others want that, it's just what's going to happen.
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Feb 26, 2017 01:59
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:If Ellison had won instead and appointed Perez as his co chair there would be people in this thread screaming about how Perez's new position was meant to undermine Ellison and would in fact have the real power and influence. And that Ellison winning was just a bone thrown to leftists to placate them. not even remotely, ellison being a bone thrown to the leftists was literally the point of trying to get him elected. "deputy" is a meaningless gesture because the chair is still not who they asked for and corporate lobbyists will continue to shape dem politics despite alienating and sometimes clashing with constituents' interests.
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Feb 26, 2017 02:26
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stone cold posted:I agree, we should disenfranchise minorities and women, since they didn't pick your precious St. Bernard. If only we could stop the perfidy of the non-cishet non-white non-men! i'm a woman and feel pretty disenfranchised by dems already. i've supported them my whole life and they've failed to represent me when i really needed them. what am i supposed to do? should i keep supporting people who will fail me? that's what i've done so far, that's what people keep telling me to do, when is it going to pay off? when will they change?
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Feb 26, 2017 02:48
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stone cold posted:I'm also a woman, and maybe we should turn on our fellow women who voted for the orange pig who wants us to revert to chattel, and keep agitating, instead. that's the issue, i don't feel like they see me as a person when they favor lobbyists over me or abandon me because i'm in a red state so my vote isn't worth the investment. i'm not as valuable to them because i don't have enough money to change anything but they can pretend like they're the ones on our side because the other side is worse, they can decide how much or how little effort they spend defending my rights because there's no better alternative, they can tell me i don't have a choice because third-party is suicide and that's the reality of the two party system, and i'll probably keep gobbling up the poo poo they feed me because they're right, but that's not going to mobilize people and right now they really loving need to mobilize people. i voted for hillary in the election, if you put a literal war criminal paying mere lip service to progressive policies i would vote for them over trump, i've compromised with dems every time because i felt too much was at stake to risk it and they've continued to lose and to make dumb decisions and shoot themselves in the foot and it's looking like they will continue to do that. stone cold posted:You're the one who has to live with yourself, after all. i'm probably going to die before the next election so it doesn't really matter what i think.
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Feb 26, 2017 04:00
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stone cold posted:That's horrible, and I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. it's far from a certainty if it makes you feel any better, just not looking good at this particular moment.
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Feb 26, 2017 04:10
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the argument that ellison and perez are both progressives so this doesn't matter is so stupid because this was way more about the vote than it was about the candidates. right now the left is mobilized as gently caress but are wary of the moderates who have a stranglehold on the party and who keep making stupid decisions that alienate their base like coddling banks at the expense of their constituents. in the aftermath of trump getting elected ellison was a symbolic olive branch to progressives that both the left and the establishment could get behind because we need a strong unified democratic party to deal with the monumental threat we now face. many were still skeptical about working within the party because dems have a history of making self-destructive decisions that weaken themselves but there was hope that with the situation this dire, things could finally change. but sure enough the establishment started getting antsy about a leftist power grab and put perez in the race to oppose ellison, the problems with perez have way less to do with perez himself and way more to do with the reasons he was put in the race, by electing perez the message was sent that the establishment isn't ready to share the party with the left but they'll throw bread crumbs to the ones willing to fall in line. so now many progressives are writing off the dems as a lost cause and will proceed to pour their efforts into a third party which will draw support away from the dems when they really need it and trump administration will remain in office for a long time to come, this is especially frustrating because it didn't need to happen, we had the perfect opportunity to unify the party and the dnc just hosed themselves and everyone else over for no good reason.XyrlocShammypants posted:Lol all you want. 65 million people voted and very area specific results decided the election. Next election, with less scandal and demographic changes pressing on we can envision more than 65 million quite easily. If you want to pretend available data on voting and party affiliation don't exist for the benefit of your chicken-littling then go ahead. "demographics will DEFINITELY outpace voter suppression and broken electoral systems this time!" - democrats in every election for the next 30 years (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 26, 2017 19:06
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i would very much like to vote for dems because our system is broken enough that the notion you're throwing away your vote when you support a third-party is true, and that it will favor GOP, and that GOP staying in power will result in a lot more death and suffering and maybe even the end of everything humanity has ever worked towards if we continue to gently caress up with climate change. that's why it's so scary and frustrating and disheartening when the only party with a realistic chance of opposition repeats stupid and easily avoidable mistakes that make them less popular, and when they actively resist attempts to change what's not working and deflect criticism that could help them improve and alienate young people who are the future of the party. i'm trying my best to work within the party towards a direction that will draw in more support and widen the pool of voters to topple the GOP and it feels like my efforts keep getting rewarded with a slap in the face, and as this goes on it gets harder and harder to convince people to stay on board.Zerilan posted:You got your symbolic victory in Ellison being deputy chair. DNC Chair itself was an election, and for that you need votes. that's the loving problem, the votes were supposed to show how willing insiders were to work with the left under the same party and it turns out they weren't ready, so now the left will spend their energy elsewhere instead of wasting their effort with power struggles.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:09
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the part that really kills me is overturning the ban on lobbyist money, it feels like the final nail in the coffin for the party and the ultimate signifier that they're headed back down a doomed path. they already have accountability issues and this is going to exacerbate the gently caress out of them and lose them credibility and support.
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Feb 26, 2017 22:58
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 lol
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Feb 26, 2017 23:34
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i'll be sure to tell all the people i've been trying to stop from leaving the party that we didn't need them anyway. dems got this one in the bag.
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Feb 26, 2017 23:47
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insiders choosing not to elect the extremely popular candidate backed by both progressives and establishment is definitely a compromise because the guy they elected who was put there specifically in reaction to leftists wanting a piece of the pie decided to throw bread crumbs to all the people they pissed off. lobbyists welcome. again, perez himself is not nearly as much of the problem here as the politics at play and the message it sends.
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Feb 27, 2017 00:09
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Harrow posted:I wish I could share the optimism some of you have that whatever party would fill the power vacuum if the Democrats collapsed would be to their left and not their right. And that there'd be anything left in this country to salvage after the 20 years it would take to start actually winning elections and not just splitting the vote with the Democrats so they both fail. i have no illusion that whatever tries to replace dems won't fail, i also have no illusion that dems are going to be successful when they fumble basic strategies like this and drive off people they should be reaching out to. i'll keep trying fruitlessly to prop up the party that keeps loving themselves over and they'll keep derailing their own momentum and we'll all crash and burn together.
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Feb 27, 2017 00:25
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people itt unironically agree with this
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Feb 27, 2017 00:33
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millennials are more left-leaning than ever and feel increasingly like there's no place for them in the party especially after yesterday, it's tremendously idiotic to cast out demographics like this, especially when their demographic keeps growing while moderates are shrinking. there is going to be a huge push for third-party that will split up the dems and make victory impossible and this could have been entirely avoided. this was a strategically stupid move no matter how you look at it and i have no idea how anyone can defend it. i don't see a way out of this.
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Feb 27, 2017 01:22
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losing a few voters is nothing, for every progressive we lose, we will pick up two moderate republicans in the suburbs in philadelphia, and you can repeat that in ohio and illinois and wisconsin. 
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Feb 27, 2017 01:44
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Fulchrum posted:
drat, this is a real head-scratcher.
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Feb 27, 2017 01:49
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i will keep voting dem because i have no other choice, many people will not because they've demonstrated they will continue to sabotage themselves and prioritize donors over constituents. we are not in a position where we can afford to lose these people, especially millennials who are now chomping at the bit to start a new party.
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Feb 27, 2017 02:18
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Archonex posted:Doesn't matter. It's still a stupid thing to get upset about. Just like how the Ellison thing is stupid. If your standard for politics is that obsessing over past losses is justification for throwing shade on the whole movement to improve on things or to just effectively rage quit entirely like Kilroy claims he's going to do then you're not really a help to anyone. Heck, in some cases you can be an active detriment. failure to address the issues in OW was a pretty big factor in the outcome of this election, particularly dissatisfaction with dems pointing to a good economy as a sign that obama worked and "america is already great" even though income inequality kept rising and many poors were worse off and not seeing a solution in sight. maybe we could try not dismissing every leftist solution as too unrealistic without even trying because to the people who are suffering it sounds like bullshit meant to keep the elite on top and that feeds into anti-establishment fervor against the dems.
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Feb 27, 2017 02:36
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 clearly this is just a bunch of hot air from leftists
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Feb 27, 2017 02:41
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Die Sexmonster! posted:Remember what happened to the Whigs? they fell apart from in-fighting and died?
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Feb 27, 2017 03:06
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i will say that i think perez is not a stupid man and he may be able to salvage this hot mess on some level if he reinstates the corporate lobbyist ban but i am very very skeptical he will do this considering the reasons he was put in the race.
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Feb 27, 2017 03:26
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i've said it a few times but i guess i'll keep saying it, perez is not really the issue himself, i think he will probably be a much better dnc chair than the people before him, but there were specific motives in pitting him against ellison and his election sends a clear message to a group we absolutely can't afford to keep driving away.
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Feb 27, 2017 03:37
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Covok posted:Comrades, we must remained united in our angrier and protest against the fake president. Perhaps it is true that things have not gone as we would like, but through primaries these can be changed! And they will be changed! And we will be the ones to do it! Our angrier is our unity and our angier is not against just Trump or Republicans, but against the corporatism and facism that has plagued our Republic for far, far too long. We must unite, we must use our votes to primary all the centrists, and we must change the establishment! Our victory is not just Trump losing office, our victory is the end of the Right-Wing, the end of corporate control, and the end of big money in politics! That is our goal and, while the democrats are not perfect for this, they are the perfect vessel to cut apart and frakenstein into a force for socialism and good! this but unironically
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Feb 27, 2017 04:03
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that's some hella prose then
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Feb 27, 2017 04:08
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Grammarchist posted:Is the position of Deputy Chairman new? I can't say I'd ever heard of it until Perez appointed Ellison to it. I'd assume it would be to serve as a front man for the party representing it on media panels and the like while Perez does the less glamorous job of wrangling opposing interests and headhunting candidates to run outside cities. But I'm not sure. By all outward expression, Ellison seems content, so that's kinda where I'm leaning. it worries me that they think crumbs like this are what progressives want. the deputy thing feels patronizing when everyone was looking towards the vote to determine whether they had a place in the party. i can't convince a single millennial that they should stick around. like those things are better than nothing but they're not going to convince leftists they should stay in the party and struggle with the power dynamics to address the issues they need to address when they can just run their own party and have their voices heard without being undermined.
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Feb 27, 2017 05:10
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SKULL.GIF posted:That is exactly what's happening. I've had to argue to convince a few youngins (by that I mean people still in their very early 20s) to stick with the party for 2018 at least. Fortunately, they seem to be listening to me, but I don't know about the other few million of them. better luck than i've had. the longer dems drag their feet, the more radicalized young people are getting to compensate for what they perceive as an inadequate response to what's going down, and the harder it will be to win them back. that's why this is so loving scary to me, i feel like we just fumbled our biggest chance to prevent that problem before it becomes too steep to handle.
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Feb 27, 2017 06:03
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TheRat posted:liberalism.txt i think the centrist rear end-kissers in this thread are loving idiots actively weakening the party but that's not wrong. equating praising an imperialist with saying a gendered slur is pretty dumb but it doesn't need to be defended.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:17
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Nevvy Z posted:Praising Kissinger in itself is a less harmful act than using the word "oval office". lol
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Feb 27, 2017 22:19
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you can address workers rights without abandoning """identity politics""" (civil rights), they are not mutually exclusive. socialism is for everyone.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:23
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Nevvy Z posted:Kissinger is bad. Praising Kissinger is foolish, but not inherently harmful. hmmm
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Feb 27, 2017 22:30
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don't defend slurs don't normalize imperialism this is some basic poo poo. why is there a slap fight over this
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Feb 27, 2017 23:43
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Brainiac Five posted:Your compañeros are reactionary infiltrators and liberals, I'm afraid. 99% of your posts are complete nonsense including this one
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Feb 27, 2017 23:47
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Brainiac Five posted:The people you have aligned yourself with, with a few exceptions, are not politically left-wing and have no reason to object to slurs because their ideology is fine with slurs and thinks slurs are good, or at least a sometimes thing. I'm sorry you have been betrayed by the movement you have identified with. lol if you don't think centrists do this poo poo all the time (see how pantsuit nation turned on minorities after clinton lost) on top of sitting on their asses as my rights go down the drain.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:01
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Covok posted:Guys, guys, guys, for gently caress's sake, can't we all just agree the enemy is evil and unite in our mutual hatred of the other rather than getting into petty arguments over things? Like, seriously, it's not hard to get: vote in primaries for the face and voice of the party you want, work with their campaigns if you must, donate, protest, rally, and the like. Hell, minor arguments amongst one another is fine: there is no one way to do the party and unity is not a common sight in politics. But, lets not let it get too heated. At the end of the day, we're just puffing hard air while the enemy shoots dead another innocent person. Take to the streets and make the opposition fear for their safety if they continue denying the will of the majority so people can safe soundly at night knowing the demons are back in their cages, don't fight each other pettily on the internet. this is kind of hard to do when the only "opposition" party decides they don't need young people to vote for them.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:07
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The Ender posted:I have this intuition that the 'voter suppression' bogeymen the Dems enjoy chasing is roughly as real as the GOP's 'voter fraud' bogeyman. you would be extremely wrong, but it's not the only reason dems lost by far.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:12
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:So is voter fraud. The questions lie in the effect size, hopefully this helps. yeah, and voter fraud has a negligible effect size while voter suppression has a pretty huge one.
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Feb 28, 2017 01:08
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Lightning Lord posted:I wish I knew enough about posters on here to know who I should be mad at about what. skimming this thread alone makes me feel pretty confident that ignoring stone cold is the objectively correct thing to do.
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Feb 28, 2017 01:13
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Lightning Lord posted:I meant I wish I knew who in this thread was actually a racist pedophile Islamophobe anti-semite. skimming this thread alone makes me feel pretty confident that ignoring stone cold and braniac five is the objectively correct thing to do.
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Feb 28, 2017 01:19
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