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 Silence is the new film from Martin Scorsese and is an adaptation of Shusaku Endo's 1966 novel about Portuguese Jesuits in 17th century Japan. It deals mainly with the persecution of the Kakure Kirishitan (Hidden Christians) of the time. There's apostasy and catechism and all that good stuff modern audiences have been craving. The film has been a passion project of Scorsese's for over two decades and fits in with previous films he's done that dealt in overtly religious themes: The Last Temptation of Christ and Kundun. Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqrgxZLd_gE So this has begun a limited release of sorts after playing in only like 4 theaters last month and it opens wide next week. After waiting years for this to come out I finally got to see it last night and it was amazing. I'm still processing it but I can say that it's very faithful to the novel and it may be Scorsese's most visually beautiful film to date. The direction is methodical and deliberate; it feels at times like he's doing an homage to Kenji Mizoguchi's work (keep an eye out for the visual reference to Ugetsu). It's nearly 3 hours long but Thelma Schoonmaker works her magic and it flies right by. Outside of critic reviews, which have ranged from high praise to calling it boring, I've seen very little anticipation towards this which is surprising considering that it's a new Scorsese. It's quickly become one of the best films I've seen this past year and I plan to rewatch it as soon as it goes wide on January 13th.
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Jan 7, 2017 05:47
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I'm seeing this in two hours and I couldn't be more excited!
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Jan 7, 2017 15:29
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What a beautiful looking film. It really felt to me like nothing Scorsese has ever done, though I have yet to see the two pictures of his that are probably most like this one (Last Temptation and Kundun). There was one thing that hurt the film for me, just a little. I never heard Rodrigues explain his position on the whole "stepping on Jesus while its only a formality" thing. The emotion never hit me as much as it should have because to me he absolutely should have done what he had to do in order to stop people from being tortured and murdered, and I was not totally clear on his moral reasoning for why he didn't. I can make some assumptions, but I would prefer it to be more explained. Or did I just miss something obvious? blue squares fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jan 7, 2017 |
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Jan 7, 2017 20:37
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^might want to fix those spoiler tags But in answer to what you're saying, it's slightly more clear in the novel but it's the fact that Rodrigues is a priest that makes the trampling on the fumie so important. To him it is a renunciation of his entire identity, possibly damns his soul for eternity, and word will get back to the church that he is an apostate. He was shown earlier in the film that he thought that the Christian hostages should go on with the trampling in order to be spared, but the church as well as the Kirishitan community and, in his eyes, God holds him to higher standards as a spiritual leader. Torture and death were the forms of martyrdom that Rodrigues was expecting or even looking forward too, but in the end he had to commit a sacrifice that leaves no reverence that is associated with martyrs. Last Temptation is highly recommended. I still haven't seen Kundun, and there looks to be no hope for a home video release anytime soon given that Disney officially apologized to China last year for having released it...
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Jan 7, 2017 21:35
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blue squares posted:What a beautiful looking film. It really felt to me like nothing Scorsese has ever done, though I have yet to see the two pictures of his that are probably most like this one (Last Temptation and Kundun). I mean isn't that the whole point of the film. It's not a film to make him look like a hero. It's a film that actively challenges his faith. He was either to proud or too arrogant and he allowed people to die for his arrogance. It isn't until that he accepts that he is not in power that he is able to grow and change as a person. having the movie give you a black and white explanation of what he is thinking would be silly and go against the whole idea of the film.
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Jan 8, 2017 20:24
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I'm glad there's finally a thread on this. I saw it a few weeks ago and it was one of my favorite films of 2016. There's a lot to take in, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing it again when it has a wide release and I won't have to drive so far.
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Jan 10, 2017 23:58
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It's kind of funny to me how difficult this film is to market. "A plodding 3-hour meditation on human suffering and Catholic faith." I suspect I'm not Catholic enough for this to hit me, but it is well-acted and astonishingly beautiful. Aesthetically, the ocean crucifixion scene and the nighttime arrival on the coast stand out in particular. I'm continually amazed by Scorsese just because of his versatility. That a film like this can sit alongside Wolf of Wall Street, Hugo and Shutter Island within just the last several years of his feature career is confounding. Considering it in the scope of his entire career is even crazier. There's a sort of thematic trilogy he's made of this, Kundun, and Last Temptation that he's apparently been gestating for decades.
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Jan 11, 2017 00:42
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Really enjoyed this. Lots of complex stuff to chew on, and a difficult watch in the best kind of way. Gonna be mulling on it for a while. The moment where Neeson points out that the Japanese think Jesus is the actual sun in the sky and not the son of god was a jaw-dropper, as someone who knows nothing about any of this.
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Jan 11, 2017 21:36
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I didn't like the ending! There I said it.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:32
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I typically don't have much interest in explicitly religious movies but I was really impressed by The Last Temptation of Christ so I'd been looking forward to this for a few years now. I ended up really loving Silence. It's probably Scorsese's best looking film visually in many years (Though I did dig the general art design behind Hugo), and Garfield ended up being much better casting than I expected. Gonna second the Son of God/Sun of God bit as being quite good. What did you guys make of the weird echo effect on the narration? Also I really need to see Kundun it seems- its the last of Scorsese's feature films I've yet to watch.
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Jan 14, 2017 02:27
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Several people here have said that it's a no brainer that Rodrigues should have apostatised. I don't understand why this is the case. It's not his fault that those other people are being tortured - it's the fault of the people doing the torturing. People are acting like those people's lives are solely in Rodrigues' hands when the torturers themselves could have stopped at any point. Why do people seem to be so much quicker to blame Rodrigues than the actual perpetrators of the violence? EDIT: also, Kichijiro is the best character.
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Jan 14, 2017 04:59
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Pretty hardcore Phantom Menace remake, but it was still pretty awesome, although it would've been cool to see Qui Gon and Kylo Ren dying a true believer makes total sense too.
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Jan 14, 2017 09:18
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Izzhov posted:Several people here have said that it's a no brainer that Rodrigues should have apostatised. I don't understand why this is the case. It's not his fault that those other people are being tortured - it's the fault of the people doing the torturing. People are acting like those people's lives are solely in Rodrigues' hands when the torturers themselves could have stopped at any point. Why do people seem to be so much quicker to blame Rodrigues than the actual perpetrators of the violence? Because he has a chance to stop people from being tortured and instead he is too wrapped up in his own world to even attempt to stop what's happening to the people. Even if it didn't work at least he made an attempt.
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Jan 14, 2017 17:49
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Contrast that against how Kylo Ren died. There was never any chance of him successfully saving those people, but however futile the effort was he swam out anyways because he at least had to try. The whole movie is about Spider-Man shedding his vain pride in his self-identity as the Christian Savior of Japan in order to try and actually save people.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:24
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The_Rob posted:Because he has a chance to stop people from being tortured and instead he is too wrapped up in his own world to even attempt to stop what's happening to the people. Even if it didn't work at least he made an attempt. Again, why are you so quick to blame him over the people actually doing the torture? They also have a chance to stop people from being tortured. By, you know, not torturing. It seems pretty straightforward that they, not Rodrigues, are the ones responsible for the torture that is happening.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:55
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Izzhov posted:Again, why are you so quick to blame him over the people actually doing the torture? They also have a chance to stop people from being tortured. By, you know, not torturing. It seems pretty straightforward that they, not Rodrigues, are the ones responsible for the torture that is happening. Garfield already told them to stop torturing them though and guess what they didn't listen. They said hey how about you say you don't believe anymore and we might stop, and Garfield goes nah I can't. Garfield is in charge of his own reality and he doesn't want to accept his reality. The people torturing aren't responsible for his beliefs. He can either make an attempt or not and watch people be tortured.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:33
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The_Rob posted:Garfield already told them to stop torturing them though and guess what they didn't listen. They said hey how about you say you don't believe anymore and we might stop, and Garfield goes nah I can't. Garfield is in charge of his own reality and he doesn't want to accept his reality. The people torturing aren't responsible for his beliefs. He can either make an attempt or not and watch people be tortured. The film implies that Rodrigues should have done what Garupe did -- instead of condemning his soul to hell by apostatizing, as well as the souls of all the other Christians by causing them to lose faith, he should have attempted to physically stop the torture. Your argument only makes sense from an atheist's perspective, which is pretty clearly not the perspective of this film.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:40
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Another thing that was brought up in the film and never argued against by a character is that, when you're living like those people are, dying seems like a pretty great option if you believe in heaven. I think Rodrigues's despair at the death of his friend was because he had begun to lose faith in heaven.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:48
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Izzhov posted:The film implies that Rodrigues should have done what Garupe did -- instead of condemning his soul to hell by apostatizing, as well as the souls of all the other Christians by causing them to lose faith, he should have attempted to physically stop the torture. Your argument only makes sense from an atheist's perspective, which is pretty clearly not the perspective of this film. But he didn't stop believing in God. In fact Jesus gave him permission to step on his face. Him believing or not in my opinion wasn't really the point. Stepping on a symbol doesn't make your faith magically disappear. It's only a symbol. In fact they make that point when Garfield is giving the Christian symbols to the Villagers and he worries that they are putting their faith into the symbols more than Christianity as a concept. He judges them for that but still refuses to step on a symbol.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:52
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The_Rob posted:But he didn't stop believing in God. In fact Jesus gave him permission to step on his face. Him believing or not in my opinion wasn't really the point. Stepping on a symbol doesn't make your faith magically disappear. It's only a symbol. In fact they make that point when Garfield is giving the Christian symbols to the Villagers and he worries that they are putting their faith into the symbols more than Christianity as a concept. He judges them for that but still refuses to step on a symbol. Ok, then what about the many manuscripts/screeds that the Japanese government presumably has him write against Christianity (like they had Ferreira do) for the rest of his life afterward?
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Jan 14, 2017 19:59
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Izzhov posted:Ok, then what about the many manuscripts/screeds that the Japanese government presumably has him write against Christianity (like they had Ferreira do) for the rest of his life afterward? What about them?
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Jan 14, 2017 20:01
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The_Rob posted:What about them? Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument seems to be that apostatizing didn't actually condemn Rodrigues to Hell (because he had permission from Jesus to step on his face), but you simultaneously imply that stepping on Jesus's face is the only act of apostasy he commits, which is what makes it not all that bad. Hence me bringing up all the anti-Christianity screeds.
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Jan 14, 2017 20:03
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Izzhov posted:Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument seems to be that apostatizing didn't actually condemn Rodrigues to Hell (because he had permission from Jesus to step on his face), but you simultaneously imply that stepping on Jesus's face is the only act of apostasy he commits, which is what makes it not all that bad. Hence me bringing up all the anti-Christianity screeds. No my argument is more that his faith is personal. Him writing screeds against Christianity doesn't make his faith go away. And he is doing these things to make sure people don't die. Arguably a very Christ like thing to do. He could sit there all day and condemn people for killing and torturing believers but that didn't stop them. He had to rise above symbols and ideology and accept truth.
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Jan 14, 2017 20:10
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It's important to note that the voice of god is Ciaran Hinds i.e. their boss from the beginning.
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Jan 14, 2017 21:47
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Escobarbarian posted:It's important to note that the voice of god is Ciaran Hinds i.e. their boss from the beginning. I really like that. It shows that he is only able to see Christianity and essentially the world around him from only one perspective. Him being told by his mentor to let go and give in shows his growth.
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Jan 14, 2017 22:59
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This was a dense movie. Kichijiro's character was fantastic, Andrew Garfield gave his best performance yet, and the overall message of the movie was thoughtful and far from preachy. The long dialogue between Ferreira and Rodrigues at the end was such a great payoff. So much wisdom from Ferreira in pointing out the folly of pride and stubbornness of Christianity and religion as a whole in Japan. Kichijiro was a perfect embodiment of everything Ferreira was telling him, and I think that is what made Rodrigues break. A lot of people are saying it was a great story of a test of faith, but I think that's pretty backwards. The whole "test of faith" was completely superficial to the point of the captors even saying multiple times that it was just a formality and a procedure. Rodrigues and the Japanese Christians that put too much stock in symbols and idols were giving it meaning, when really it was pointless and as Ferreira said, Jesus would have done it immediately to help people because that was the point of the religion. I also liked the 2nd in command officer guy pointing out that the whole idea of spreading Christianity to Japan and all of the suffering Rodrigues was putting himself through was pointless in the end, since the path and teachings of both religions were basically the same.
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Jan 16, 2017 04:25
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In general, there's something fascinating about the idea that, on some meta level, the performance of martyrdom inherent to committing apostasy on behalf of other Christians is itself Christ-like behavior. The rejection of Rodrigues' own faith, and the endangerment of his own belief in salvation, makes him MORE Christian in context. He's more Christian by being less Christian. It's a lot to unpack. I don't know if it reduces Catholicism to absurdity or is a ringing endorsement. Which is probably the right tension for the film to leave people with.
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Jan 16, 2017 08:28
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Adam Driver's death scene was god drat heartrending 
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Jan 16, 2017 14:55
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Xealot posted:In general, there's something fascinating about the idea that, on some meta level, the performance of martyrdom inherent to committing apostasy on behalf of other Christians is itself Christ-like behavior. The rejection of Rodrigues' own faith, and the endangerment of his own belief in salvation, makes him MORE Christian in context. He's more Christian by being less Christian. This in my opinion is the core of the movie, and what makes it very interesting. I love some of themes, but with that said, I think the movie really dragged at times. It was just a little too slowly paced. and probably could have been made shorter/tighter without losing anything. Some of the people I saw it with absolutely hated it because of this, and it was obvious they were bored while we were watching. Also I oddly did not find it very pretty. There were a few gorgeous shots involving the ocean, but all in all it looked very washed out. I think that was intentional, but it didn't really do it for me visually.
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Jan 16, 2017 23:17
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Yeah, tighter editing could have told the exact same story in about 30 minutes less. There were a lot of repeat shots and scenes that, while effective, weren't necessary.
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Jan 16, 2017 23:39
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I thought for sure the shot of the waves breaking was filmed at the same spot the Toei logo was done, but the rocks look different.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:30
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It's a movie about exploring your beliefs through introspection. Cutting it for time would be silly.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:02
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At what point can we give up on the spoiler bars? There's only gonna be like twelve people who watch this move and it's not like it's ridden with sudden plot twists. Regardless, one thing I think people are missing with the visible apostasy of a priest in Catholicism is that you're likely damning everyone who witnesses it - they'll see the priest repent and so will lose faith in the Church and eventually in God. And if you give up and lose that battle to save a handful of people being tortured, you're also giving up hope of converting Japan. Which is what the inquisitor accomplished by getting Rodrigues and Ferrera to write all those takedown of Christianity. By visibly breaking the missionaries you've broken the spread of the faith. That's a whole nation of people who'll never receive the word of God or the forgiveness of Christ and are therefore damned, and it's kind of your fault. Especially to a Jesuit, who were a pretty get-out-there-and-convert-the-world branch of the Church. God forgives everything and doesn't care about symbols so the priests know it's okay to step on the picture and even say God isn't real for your own sake, as long as you still have faith, but it's doing so in sight of all the converts that's the issue. Because then by apostatizing you're likely to drat everyone.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:04
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The_Rob posted:It's a movie about exploring your beliefs through introspection. Cutting it for time would be silly. Oh I agree that the length was effective for those same reasons, it certainly makes you consider if the character was strong or just stubborn. For most audiences though, it would be just as effective with less frustration if the run time were shorter.
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Jan 17, 2017 02:07
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Bottom Liner posted:This was a dense movie. Kichijiro's character was fantastic, Andrew Garfield gave his best performance yet, and the overall message of the movie was thoughtful and far from preachy. This is off base, and again a good atheist interpretation of the happenings, but not the "lapsed catholic" perspective Scorsese brings to his films. The conversation Ferreira and Rodrigues have is filled with bullshit. His whole idea that the Japanese are mentally incapable of understanding the story of Jesus Christ is both belittling and wrong. We know it's wrong because we've seen the faith of the villagers who have an understanding of Catholicism, Jesus, the virtue of confession, and eternal paradise through their devotion. Rodrigues is right, the faith has been uprooted and the soil poisoned by men who use torture and slaughter to stamp out a religion that was clearly gaining grown and posed a threat to the beliefs of the ruling class. Kichijiro may be the embodiment of everything Ferreira and the authorities told Rodrigues, but this is also a man whose family allowed themselves to be executed rather than renounce God. Just because these kinds of weak souls exist in the world, does not mean all of Japan is a lost cause when clearly so many will die for the faith. Neither Rodrigues nor Ferreira ever truly give up their faith, even if the external pressure of the law has forced them to betray the church. Ferreira lets slip an "our Lord" and Rodrigues is of course secretly buried with a crucifix. The silence in the title is obviously the silence of God, which leads to a crisis of faith and questioning of belief. But from a Catholic perspective the simple act of stepping on a symbol represents an entire loss of identity and a rejection of God, knowingly condemning yourself to Hell. You are taking a serious gamble that the silence truly reflects an absence, and not merely a test. There's no guidance for whether Rodrigues does the right thing in the eyes of God and Christ. Both Ferreira and Rodrigues renounced out of coercion, and in an attempt to spare the suffering of others. If God does exist they risk damnation, if he doesn't they have saved lives and done something moral. And if God does exist does he understand the renouncement was insincere, and done in an attempt to save lives, or does he adhere strictly to the rules of Catholicism no matter the circumstances? Take, for example, Hitchcock's I Confess in which a Catholic priest is falsely accused of murder and faces death row, but will not give up the real killer who confessed his sin to the priest. To reveal what was spoken in confessional is a grave sin and a rejection of holy vows, especially in a selfish act. The priest must choose to save a murderer, who may very well be damned himself, at the expense of his own life.
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Jan 17, 2017 04:50
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TrixRabbi posted:This is off base, and again a good atheist interpretation of the happenings, but not the "lapsed catholic" perspective Scorsese brings to his films. The conversation Ferreira and Rodrigues have is filled with bullshit. His whole idea that the Japanese are mentally incapable of understanding the story of Jesus Christ is both belittling and wrong. We know it's wrong because we've seen the faith of the villagers who have an understanding of Catholicism, Jesus, the virtue of confession, and eternal paradise through their devotion. Rodrigues is right, the faith has been uprooted and the soil poisoned by men who use torture and slaughter to stamp out a religion that was clearly gaining grown and posed a threat to the beliefs of the ruling class. Except that god directly speaks to him, not to mention it really isn't made explicitly clear that the villagers really understand Catholicism. Ferreira even says he is scared they care more for the symbols than anything else. I'm not saying it's not possible that villagers truly understand Catholicism, but there is nothing in the movie that truly makes it clear.
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Jan 17, 2017 06:08
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The_Rob posted:Ferreira even says he is scared they care more for the symbols than anything else. That was a really funny moment of irony, since that's often a criticism of Catholicism by other sects of Christianity, so it made sense that this completely separate culture would take the ideas shown to them and take them further.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:26
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Also I may have made this up, but I swear I caught a rooster crowing in the background of the scene where Rodriguez steps on the face. If I really did hear this, it's a reference to Peter's rejection of christ I think.
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Jan 17, 2017 09:36
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The_Rob posted:Except that god directly speaks to him Or does he? Again, it's Ciaran Hinds' voice. I saw it as entirely his imagination.
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Jan 17, 2017 12:09
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Megasabin posted:Also I may have made this up, but I swear I caught a rooster crowing in the background of the scene where Rodriguez steps on the face. If I really did hear this, it's a reference to Peter's rejection of christ I think. You didn't make it up, and you are hella right because it crows three times.
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Jan 17, 2017 12:21
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