The Culture War: Dreams of a Better World

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thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

In other words, do nothing about racism and remain silent. You're being very revealing.

Btw, would you posit that a white person has no practical incentive to not be racist? That is to say, if they are racist throughout their life, or even just through parts or one point, that racism will have garnered them a net gain, and will not come back to bite them through how it deprives them of the contributions of African Americans have to offer this country?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:09

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 08:11

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

The Kingfish posted:

Actually, anyone can have a productive discussion with anyone else who is willing.

As it is, one cannot control what others say. The best way to calm a discussion is to cut folks slack, whether you feel like they deserve it or not. I'm not singling you out for anything, I just felt that quoting someone helps to gain their attention, and by helping one person in a conversation notice it, I can help all person participating

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:14

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

If you just jump through these hoops I might consider cops murdering small children to be wrong, or at least pretend to.- One of "The Kingfish's" conservative friends.

All things considered Brainiac, Do you really think that discrimination against black people does not come back to harm everyone?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:16

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

Obviously someone benefits from it. To think otherwise is to be willfully stupid.

But do you think that, ultimately as a whole, white people benefit on average from discrimination against black people?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:20

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

Why would you think otherwise? Why else would people continue to maintain structural racism if it obviously hurt them? Are white people all suicidal?

The Idea would be that they don't realize that it does, and that some of it doesn't happen consciously.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:27

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Nevvy Z posted:

You should have pointed out that they were being sexist as gently caress because that is her ring and she gets to own property. The issue with doweries is irrelevant and they are bad activists.

It's a tricky balance because on the one hand some people just need to be told to gently caress right on off, on the other hand there are people who legitimately might be persuadable who are nervous about being yelled at for an accidental slip of the tongue or for misgendering someone.

I would argue that working one's self up when dealing with someone whom is difficult to speak with or says things that are inflammatory to you does you no benefit, and only reaffirms their opinion.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:31

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

So, it doesn't hurt them, then, and does benefit them. Gee! What a notion.

All this poo poo about white innocence is plainly an effort to reify white supremacy and prevent people from talking about racism.

I was saying that it hurt's them, but that they do not recognize it. If they did, it would cause them to change their behavior, and likely from there they would change their moral opinion.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:33

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Talmonis posted:

Mock them. Relentlessly and with great numbers of their peers. Especially if you can get a well known activist to help.

A question, do you think this works in general?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:38

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

VikingSkull posted:

One of the problems is the message being given to those people is one of "you benefit from a racist system and by default if you do not understand that at a base level, you are also a racist"

What that does is tell that person to ignore the message because as they know racism, they do not fit that definition. So the messenger is effectively "lying" to them.

I personally think that we do not benefit from a racist system. I would even go so far as to think that white people, even rich white people would be better off without racism.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:44

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Talmonis posted:

It works when it's done by your peer group, but not by outside or rival groups.

Alright, so then how do you convince someone in a group you are not a part of?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:45

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

Then you truly are The Chosen One.

Okay. Do you agree with me?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:46

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

No.

But would you disagree with the notion that African American's have the ability to contribute to our nation and that racism stifles their ability to do so?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 19:52

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

Ok you're playing the maieutics game. Well, I'm game, Socrates! Be aware so that I've got a trap card up my sleeve...

To answer your question, no. I do not disagree with your latest statement.

So Would you say that, from a stand point limited to practicality alone, that there would be no reason for a white person to not be racist? to say nothing of morality or anything else.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:05

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Talmonis posted:

Cultural force and demographic shifts. And for the worst examples, deployment of the 101st Airborne.

As in, there is no convincing them. You have to go around the social conservatives of the day*, every time. Every major instance of social progress, from abolition to gay marriage, has been using the force of law, backed up by the legitimate threat of enforcing said law.

The people to convince are those in the center. The moderate and the unafilliated are the people you need to convince.

*This changes with generation. An abolitionist from the 1800's would be horribly conservative to our eyes. Tomorrow, it might be us. We will also deserve the boot in the rear end to get with the program, as our grandchildren define their boundries.

But where do you get cultural force? How do you get opinions to change from generation to generation?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:07

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

rudatron posted:

But ideally social climbing shouldn't be the problem. Any organization worth its salt is going to try and channel ambitious individuals into serving the goals of the group as a whole. Such people are going to exist, so why not use them? The problem is that the 'method' for actualizing that ambition, right now, consists entirely of saying the right words and guilt-tripping as many people as possible. The more you can display how much of a victim you are, or conversely, how the person you dislike is secretly victimizing others, the greater your own voice.

The whole thing has to come down to a flaw in the philosophy, not simply the lack of a desire to build organizations - no one ever really wants to build organizations for their own sake.

I agree that trying to tear others down doesn't really help, calling in the state guard to desegregate a last few schools during the civil rights movement did not end segregation (as an example), It occurred as a result of the civil rights movement.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:14

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

No, I would not. I would say however that the elusive "average American" would indeed benefit form a racism free utopia, but that the white people subset would not necessarily benefit from such a situation.

In more mathematicals terms, a higher average doesn't mean higher values overall.

Also I would point out that limiting our discussion to practicality alone distance ourselves from the real world.

So, to confirm, your answer to " from a stand point limited to practicality alone, that there would be no reason for a white person to not be racist?' is no?

So, would you say that from a stand point limited to practicality alone, that there would be a reason for a white person to not be racist?

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jan 10, 2017

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:24

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

TomViolence posted:

It's literally what you said though.

I figure if it is literally what he said, you would have quoted him. If he literally said it, you should have just quoted him.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:30

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

The only good thing about reactionaries is that they're really not very good at concealing their desire to destroy justice and impose injustice.

Do they really want to destroy justice and impose injustice, or are you saying that is what they are doing from your perspective? It might sound facetious to ask, but I will be honest I am not confidant enough to assume what you mean.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:33

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

It must be because English is my second language, I'll try again.
A white person can rationally have reasons to be racist, because they can rationnally expect that elevating the status of POC will lower theirs. And, but evidently not guaranteed, they can be right!
Meaning that from an average standpoint, like GDP per capita or incarcerations rates, crime, etc, society as a whole might be better off but white people might not necessarily be.

To which I added in a paraphrase that they can also have irrationnal, emotional and/or cultural beliefs&traditions to oppose to elevate the status of POCs. This however was previously excluded from our conversation by the use of the word "practical".

So, to specify more, would you say that the average white person has more reason to be racist, or not racist? From a practical standpoint of course.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:38

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

TomViolence posted:

Wouldn't it be fair to say that all activists are angry about the status quo on some level? And what do you consider a pragmatic way to protest, if not through publicly expressing this discontent with the way things are?

I personally think protest, though risky is a valid option for dissent. I personally just think that if others come to my conclusions, that I would prefer to band together with them, since they agree with me, as I think most people on this forum do (about the conclusion, not the way to it of course).

Not singling you out for anything, just saying that coalition building works with republicans, and they still seem pretty good a forming a phalanx when they need to. I think rather than focusing on what we disagree with, we should focus on what we do agree with first.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:41

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

From a practical standpoint, a white person can make the case that, hypothetically speaking, he could either benefit or not from the perpetuation of racism. From which he can lean to being more or less racist himself.

What I'm hinting at is that the general welfare argument is not a good angle of attack to tackle racism in America or anywhere else, IMHO.

so would you say that the benefit to white people as a whole would be positive, negative, or that you do not know?

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jan 10, 2017

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:46

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

I would say that I do not know. I would also add that noone can reasonably know, so it holds very little convincing power.

To conclude, and since we're talking about positive or negative benefits, that is to say a change in status, I would posit that whatever hypothetical negative shift in white people welfare and material living conditions would plateau at some point in the future, of course. Not crash down. However this last belief of mine I'm wary of having it ring true to a non-negligible part of the white population.

I would agree it is rather hard to tell exactly what would happen. So then, what reason would you give to white people for not being racist?

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jan 10, 2017

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 20:58

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

The same reason you wouldn't beat and rob someone.

What would that be?

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jan 10, 2017

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:03

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

You don't know? I feel sorry for the people around you.

Indeed, so do I, please tell me why not to beat and rob someone so that I may become a better person.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:10

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

Because racism is tragically bad. It's bad in a Darth-Vader-in-Star-Wars bad. It's bad in a way a 4 year-old can understand.
I'm sorry to use such a simple and manichean - one would say naive - argument. But racism is simply awful.

Now, of course I realize the futility of such a talking point in this day and age. It's extremely hard pull someone out of the poisoned well of racism. However it's still feasible to stop someone from falling down.

To conclude once more: It's my belief that the simple "racism=bad", the emotional argument, is more effective than rational ones. It's also my belief that we whites should waste no time convincing bona fide racists. We might use some time to openly ridiculize them when and where we outnumber them. And also always remember in the back of our minds that violence is sometimes the answer... But in fine the best argument is that racism is just the worst.

So it is so easy to comprehend why racism is bad that even a four year old may understand, I really am stupid. Could you explain it to me?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:14

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

Let's start on honesty first.

Please tell me why it is wrong to beat and rob someone, surely you can find it in your heart to explain to me this reason.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:16

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

I'm out!

Please explain why, it would surely take little of your time, and it would surely help me to understand better your position. please gift me this knowledge, I know I incredibly dense, but surely if you explain it will make sense to me!

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:18

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

Dude, chill! We did the maieutics dance, now it's done. Time to pack and go home.

But what of the 'trap card'? or about explaining why it is wrong to beat and rob someone, which I have been told would give insight as to why it is wrong for a white person to be racist?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:24

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

Imagine, if you will, the greatest possible pain you can think of, the deepest misery, the most existential form of suffering. Now imagine something ten times worse than that. In the Hell to which you will be condemned for dishonesty, such a sensation will be like a warm bath after a relaxing dinner and a good movie, on an all-expenses paid vacation, after a hell of a good gently caress. Your daily existence will be at least a thousand times more painful. And worst of all, the angels of torture will ensure that you know with all your mind and heart and soul that you are only getting what you deserve for being a jackass in a thread online.

Alright, I am imagining that (perhaps being flayed alive while feeling like your dying of some incredibly nauseating disease?) What else must I do to understand why it is wrong to beat and rob someone, (which I've come under the impression will tell me why a white person should not be racist as well)?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:25

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

All you need to do is continue living and when you die you will suffer all the suffering of everyone that has ever lived for every second you thought this was clever. This will repeat endlessly until you understand why it was wrong for you to do, and then your actual sentence can begin. It normally starts at a million years for just what you've done in this thread but you will probably earn a couple trillion.

I must admit I am a complete and utter idiot, and that it is amazing that have made it as far as I have. Please, could you have pity on this disgusting fool and explain to him why it is wrong to beat and rob someone? I know it must be true, but surely I would understand more, perhaps even be able to understand why a white person should not be racist, if you would be so kind as to explain it to me, burdensome as it is.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:35

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

I'll tell you if you provide me with your Social Security Number, credit card information, and a cool ten thou in cash. No coins, please.

Upon my word, tarnished as it may be, I will do so. So, please, liberate me from my ignorance, why shouldn't someone beat and rob someone?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:39

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

You gotta pay to play, kid. The little misunderstanding will also cost you your bank account numbers.

Oh please Brainiac, have mercy on me! Surely you can find it in your heart to tell me why one should not beat and rob someone, I shall provide you everything, so please tell me! Surely if you can find reason not to beat and rob people, you can find reason within to tell me why?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:43

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

I don't know what those capitalized words refer to.

I believe he refers to murder, violence, and racism, only capitalized. please, educate us! you may very well be our only hope!

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 21:58

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Talmonis posted:

Calling out an individual for their behavior in a group, is done for a few reasons. One; it draws attention to the action or statement and points out its negative implication. Two; It removes the ability for the individual responsible for the action or statement to assume that everyone, through their silence, agrees with his or her action/statement. Three; It reinforces the social norms of decency in polite conversation.

Probably more, but I'm busy.

Couldn't this be applied to not being racist?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 22:00

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

No, your question featured capitalized words, which I assume referred to some code. I want to know why you capitalized them so I can assess whether you are mentally normal enough to be worth talking to.

Please, do not hide such immense knowledge from us Brainiac! Please tell us your reasonings, and surely we will understand!

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 22:05

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Nevvy Z posted:

How? This question seems largely nonsensical.

I mean, if that is how we change people's minds, wouldn't racist people have done that to non-racist people, 'correcting' them before they could grow into their own? If reason doesn't work, how can we expect to out emotion them, when they are more emotional then us? how can we out violence them, when they are more violent then us?

It just seems like if we can't get people to defect to our side, and they outnumber us, then how are we supposed to win?

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jan 10, 2017

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 22:05

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Talmonis posted:

The same way we've always won. With grindingly slow progress, tiny victories over generations that add up to a whole goddamn lot when taken from an overall view. Occasionally by using the army on Southerners.

edit* And to be less flippant and address your first point, yes that's exactly how racists acted toward non-racists when they were the majority. The Civil Rights era was a goddamn street brawl compared to today, when being a "race traitor" could get your family killed. We still won that fight. So today, being an open racist is considered impolite even in the south. Some are mad about that, and they rush to Trump like he's the second coming of N.B. Forrest. The rest of his voters (to be clear, voters are not the same as his supporters) are just your standard Republican. They don't mean folks any particular harm, they could just care less if minorities or gay folks live or die.

But exactly why is it that we did not succumb to this when they did so, if it is effective at changing people? where exactly did the civil rights movement come from?

Also, it makes me ask why it is that bigoted opinions would succumb to this any more readily than ones which aren't. I know Racism is bad, but how can you convince anyone that what you say is right when all someone would have to do is ask why to leave you forced to sidle around it. It puts a lie to it, and leaves you exceedingly vulnerable to being undercut.

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jan 10, 2017

# ¿ Jan 10, 2017 23:35

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 08:11

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

Brainiac Five posted:

People are dying every day from racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism. Discrimination by class. Discrimination by age. Lack of access to healthcare. People are suffering. And we say that this does not matter, that the lives of people do not matter? Than why struggle against our extinction, if misery and suffering do not matter?

Aight, I agree suffering is bad. So what does one do? Probably a lot of things, but I figure the best thing one can do is divide problems into smaller problems until they become something we can act upon. Paralysis due to not being able to do something concrete and understandable is tantamount to inaction.

# ¿ Jan 11, 2017 02:50

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